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Total War: PHARAOH

Reina

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
1,581
Location
Western Ruritania
There wasn't football in 3000 BC. There were chariot races.

And?

My point isn't that "all Egyptians are dark-skinned", but that there's a very significant group native to Egypt which does have a noticeably darker skin that usual mediterranean stock. Egypt isn't just Alexandria and Cairo; on the south it borders Sudan, a region with some of the "most black" peoples in the world (according to some studiest, "the blackiest"). Area of modern Sudan was the first notable foreign excursion of Egyptian state, even before Syria and Libya. Furthermore, in the past center of Egyptian state largely rested on the southern (upper) part of the country, with Thebes serving as the capital of several dynasties. We know for sure that at least some Egyptian pharaohs took Kushite (Sudanese/Nubian) women for wives, and Kush/Nubia was for a short period of time even a province within Egypt. This led to assimilation of black nubians into Egyptian aristocracy (for example, one Hekanefer) Furthermore, we can assume that exchange between black kingdom of Kush and Egypt continued to be lively, because when Kushites conquer Egypt, their culture is thoroughly egyptianized, as some historians point out - they were more 'Egyptian' than the Egyptians that they conquered.

Hell, even Israelites were aware of the existence of black-skinned, Kushite peoples and seemingly had no problem intermarrying with them (Moses had one as wife according to Book of Numbers)

In light of the above, we can safely assume that A) There were plenty of dark-skinned people in Egypt, even among the higher strata of the society. B) Most egyptian royal lines definitely weren't 100% white aryans, quite the contrary.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,394
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Keep coping and seething swarthoid
669.jpeg
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
24,100
Cleopatra was Greek.
Ptolemaios, shithole occupiers of Egypt. These brownies that devastated Egypt statehood.
Slightly less max tan having real Egyptians who didn't have that ugly nose wanted to rule theirs own country THEMSELVES.
 

Üstad

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
Messages
8,627
Location
Türkiye

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
11,154
Mentioning Greek Pharaohs is still completely irrelevant in that context. And they weren't Medditerranean looking, assuming you mean Greek or similar looking by that.
Well duh we know ancient greeks looked different than modern greeks before your ancestors culturally enriched them against their will.
 

Üstad

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2019
Messages
8,627
Location
Türkiye
Mentioning Greek Pharaohs is still completely irrelevant in that context. And they weren't Medditerranean looking, assuming you mean Greek or similar looking by that.
Well duh we know ancient greeks looked different than modern greeks before your ancestors culturally enriched them against their will.
I'm not even talking about ancient greeks. Learn to read.
 

fizzelopeguss

Arcane
Joined
Oct 1, 2004
Messages
971
Location
Equality Street.
There's portraiture from the Roman period in the Manchester museum near me, they don't look all that different from the Nefertiti bust a thousand years prior, or the modern lot knocking about today.
 

Ryzer

Arcane
Joined
May 1, 2020
Messages
7,735
So, Is Varg Vikernes right about Pharaohs and ancient Rome?
wuz germans pharaohs and shit?
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
24,100
There wasn't football in 3000 BC. There were chariot races.

And?

My point isn't that "all Egyptians are dark-skinned", but that there's a very significant group native to Egypt which does have a noticeably darker skin that usual mediterranean stock. Egypt isn't just Alexandria and Cairo; on the south it borders Sudan, a region with some of the "most black" peoples in the world (according to some studiest, "the blackiest"). Area of modern Sudan was the first notable foreign excursion of Egyptian state, even before Syria and Libya. Furthermore, in the past center of Egyptian state largely rested on the southern (upper) part of the country, with Thebes serving as the capital of several dynasties.
You are assuming current degenerate variant of population movement that was happening in Europe in last 40 years must be also happening in 1900 BC. Well, if they moved, they were likely enslaved, possibly castrated, and had pleasure of working themselves to death for profit of people in countries they immigrated into. Both Egypt and Nubia had strong reasons to avoid immgration. That's why Nubia kept theirs relatively dark max tan, and why Egyptians could call Greeks "these dark skin people".

It's interesting there are historic records about cross country agreements where all countries on pilgrimage routes had agreement to NOT enslave or attack pilgrims. But, pilgrims were defined as people that returned to theirs own original country.

Both sides had pilgrimage sites on theirs own territories, and neither of them wanted to screw theirs relations, and fuck up access to these sites if they did something bad to pilgrims.

But that was massive exception. Nubians are known to develop mummification of dogs only to piss of Egyptian pharaohs. I wasn't able to find if Egyptians managed to do something as revenge.

We know for sure that at least some Egyptian pharaohs took Kushite (Sudanese/Nubian) women for wives,
Primary or secondary? And was that in era of degradation of Egypt nation, or at era when a strong nationality protected Egypt?

and Kush/Nubia was for a short period of time even a province within Egypt. This led to assimilation of black nubians into Egyptian aristocracy (for example, one Hekanefer)
I'm not sure assimilation would be correct description. Be under a king, and until next peace treaty that transfer land with you to another king which you would be equally loyal to because the land you rule was transferred under different country including your own rule of that land... People liked when their direct leader stayed and continue to keep theirs lives decent. Kings were kinda the same.

Furthermore, we can assume that exchange between black kingdom of Kush and Egypt continued to be lively, because when Kushites conquer Egypt, their culture is thoroughly egyptianized, as some historians point out - they were more 'Egyptian' than the Egyptians that they conquered.
It's not about culture, when you call pig a dog, pig will not bark. And even if you breed dogs, you wouldn't be able to get properly tasting smoked bacon.

Hell, even Israelites were aware of the existence of black-skinned, Kushite peoples and seemingly had no problem intermarrying with them (Moses had one as wife according to Book of Numbers)
Are we talking about a group that was viewed as Roma population today before Roma population arrived, and proved they have worse genetics, and ethic behavior than the previously hated group?
Nowadays that previously hated group has decent state, and overpopulation of Egypt caused young Egyptians to behave similarly as that previously hated group behaved in the past...

In light of the above, we can safely assume that A) There were plenty of dark-skinned people in Egypt, even among the higher strata of the society. B) Most egyptian royal lines definitely weren't 100% white aryans, quite the contrary.
If there were plenty of blacks in Egypt, we would either see a change in global skin color, or there would be an extreme reason why they didn't intermix.
 
Last edited:

Tyrr

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
2,665

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,737
Pathfinder: Wrath
I refuse to believe that's real lolololol. CA is a start-up company deserving of a government grant? Are they literally insane?
 

zapotec

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 7, 2018
Messages
1,501
Could be a dissing for the current mess state of total warhammer 3.

Jokes a part i bet it's a typo, I mean the maximum grant is 25k pounds and CA doesn't fill the criteria for application (maximum company size is 50 people)

I also don't think somebody in the management is trying to put 25k pounds in its pocket
 

Reina

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
1,581
Location
Western Ruritania
Raghar, as always your ability to mold percieved reality into black/white view of the world astonishes me.

Well, if they moved, they were likely enslaved, possibly castrated, and had pleasure of working themselves to death for profit of people in countries they immigrated into. Both Egypt and Nubia had strong reasons to avoid immgration. That's why Nubia kept theirs relatively dark max tan, and why Egyptians could call Greeks "these dark skin people".

Okay, here's the thought experiment: how do you differentiate between southern Egyptian and a Nubian? There are no significant geographical barriers in the region, no modern borders controlled by sophisticated state apoparatus. People there must've intermingled for decades before Egypt became a state (and we do know that they massively intermingled later on - leading to several local conflicts) There are no IDs. Are you suggesting there was some magical line that separated "black" wand "white egyptians", so that people in Egypt knew who to "enslave and castrate"?

Primary or secondary? And was that in era of degradation of Egypt nation, or at era when a strong nationality protected Egypt?

One, we barely know much about most of Egyptian queens, but generally there was no division between them into ranks. Two, which era would you classify as one "when a strong nationality protected Egypt?"? Old kingdom, the first/second state in human history? (Definitely didn't have time to invent notion of nationality) Middle Kingdom? It probably cannot be after that, because in Second Intermediate Period large parts of Egypt are invaded and colonized by Hyksos and Kushites (yup, Blacks).

It's not about culture, when you call pig a dog, pig will not bark. And even if you breed dogs, you wouldn't be able to get properly tasting smoked bacon.

Funnily, Kushites would agree. They thought they are conquering Egypt of Ramasses the Great, and instead they got Egypt in decline, run over by Libyans and other neighbours.

Are we talking about a group that was viewed as Roma population today before Roma population arrived, and proved they have worse genetics, and ethic behavior than the previously hated group?

No.

If there were plenty of blacks in Egypt, we would either see a change in global skin color, or there would be an extreme reason why they didn't intermix.

Lol, what? You act as if "blacks" were living for centuries living in deep isolation, and for some reason everyone could spot a "black" on the spot (supposedly so he can immediately enslave him), while rest of the world was magically white, without in-betweens.
 

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