Total War: PHARAOH

[Modron]

Who'd of thunk being in the hot sun all day long might make you considerably tan?

 

[Konjad]

Never played a Total War game.
I would consider playing Total War: RZECZPOSPOLITA.

That's what Empire: Total War was for the most part

 

[Aemar]

I think this will sell well in Egypt.

 

[zapotec]

https://store.totalwar.com/en/total-war/total-war-pharaoh

Wow two cockroaches fighing for a ball of shit is a deep metaphore of the current era we live in

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Talk about not reading the mood after the 'Cleopatra' controversy; they should have frantically re-rendered the trailer.

I thought at first he might be Copt/Arab/Berber looking, but it's clear they have ambiguised his race to appease Afro race fantasists.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

Who'd of thunk being in the hot sun all day long might make you considerably tan?

That said it was very uncommon for the elites to have tanned skin due to them usually being indoors a lot more than the poorer classes. In their own art works they show this thing called "Complexion" a lot, implying that Ancient Egyptians aren't just a singular colour. Its generally believed that Ancient Egytians tried to lighten their complexion using cosmetics as lighter skin was associated with youth, beauty and prestige. Darker skin was not looked down on either but was instead revered for being a hard worker or a good soldier or hunter. And then there's also Masculinity being darker skinned and femininity being lighter skinned. Its a huge disservice to the culture to paint them all as a unified singular complexion. Also no one ever seems to get the hair right.

 

[Cyberarmy]

So....
Battle Bugs remake??

 

[Lord_Potato]

Never played a Total War game.
I would consider playing Total War: RZECZPOSPOLITA.

You can play as Poland in both Medieval: Total War games and I'm sure there are mods for some of the games that include the Commonwealth as a playable faction.

Anyway, the best content for Total War games is produced by modders. Their campaigns are larger, more ambitious and more historically accurate (judging from Rome: Total Realism, Europa Barbarorum and Roma Surrectum for Rome: Total War and Stainless Steel for Medieval 2: Total War).

 

[Modron]

You could play potato in this but nobody voted for it besides me: https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...n-iv-the-blue-wolf-and-the-white-deer.147017/

 

[Louis_Cypher]

There actually were Nubian pharaohs for a period (the 25th dynasty, to be exact).

I don't think they are doing it for that reason, let's face it. They are representing North Africa's history. So they choose to select the New Kingdom's one foreign black dynasty from Nubia, to represent the history of a region of Africa who's native people predominantly look caucasian like the photos above? We know why. They made his features appear, if anything, African American, who are part European part West African in phenotype:

West Africa lies at the other side of of a 5000 mile continent. Also the other side of the Sahara.

There are very few routes across the Sahara. Also Afroasiatic languages like Egyptian likely originated in Asia.

Likely the Afroasiatic family of languages like Egyptian, Hebrew, Arabic, originated in the Natufian culture of the Near East.

Even if we charitably say he is meant to be from the Nubian 25th Dynasty that ruled Egypt, or he is mixed race, such as a Egyptian-Nubian prince, the nearby Nubians don't look very much like a typical African American actor or model from Hollywood. Even further south on the Nile, the Nilotic peoples don't look like West Africans either, having tall gracile features. His appearace is more likely inspired by 1960s African American 'black power' views of Egypt, where Egyptian and Nubian culture were appropriated to give African Americans a claim to a civilization as old as China or Greece. The subculture of African American known as 'hoteps', known more recently known as 'kangz', who's ancestors came from nowhere within 4000 miles of Egypt.

Total War is likely virtue signalling to pan-Africanist 'black power' myths from the USA. To appease activists or prevent bad press.

A while back, they did genetic studies on 151 ancient Egyptian mummies, from from Abusir el-Meleq in Middle Egypt. They found that the population was slightly mixed, as we would expect, but this had actually increased since ancient times, meaning Egyptians are 'blacker' today than they were in ancient times (likely due to the medieval Arab slave trade poaching sub-Saharan Africans for export in the Muslim world):

The absolute estimates of sub-Saharan African ancestry in these three ancient Egyptian individuals ranged from 6 to 15%, and the absolute estimates of sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 135 modern Egyptian samples ranged from 14 to 21%, which show an 8% increase in African component. The age of the ancient Egyptian samples suggests that this 8% increase in African component occurred predominantly within the last 2000 years.​

​

Furthermore, concerning modern Egyptians:

​

A study by Luis et al. (2004) found that the male haplogroups in a sample of 147 Egyptians were E1b1b (36.1%, predominantly E-M78), J (32.0%), G (8.8%), T (8.2%), and R (7.5%). The study found that "Egypt's NRY frequency distributions appear to be much more similar to those of the Middle East than to any sub-Saharan African population, suggesting a much larger Eurasian genetic component ... The cumulative frequency of typical sub-Saharan lineages (A, B, E1b1a) is 3.4% in Egypt​

​

Furthermore, concerning Copts in Sudan:

45% of Copts in Sudan (of a sample of 33) carry haplogroup J1. Next most common was E1b1b, the most common haplogroup in North Africa. Both paternal lineages are common among other regional Afroasiatic-speaking populations, such as Beja, Ethiopians, and Sudanese Arabs, as well as non-Afroasiatic-speaking Nubians. E1b1b reaches its highest frequencies among North African and Horn of Africa populations such as Amazighs and Somalis. The next most common haplogroups borne by Copts are R1b (15%), most common in Europe, and the widespread African haplogroup B (15%)​

The native people of the region seem to share the E1b1b haplogroup with Jews and Europeans (Hitler was E1b1b, as are many modern Europeans, but it was probably from ancient Asia or North Africa in origin). Even more lol, Tutankahmun had R1b hapogroup, which is, of course, famously associated with Aryans. That must have been a major blow to hoteps. The other big hapologroup was J, found mostly in Arab peoples.

 

[KateMicucci]

Talk about not reading the mood after the 'Cleopatra' controversy; they should have frantically re-rendered the trailer.

Maybe they did.

 

[Absinthe]

Calm your tits, Louis_Cypher. Total War: PHARAOH obviously isn't depicting the 25th dynasty (just like Cleopatra obviously isn't). I was just pointing out that there was, in fact, a period where there were black pharaohs. I even pointed out explicitly afterwards that the late bronze age collapse is not the 25th dynasty.

The physical features are indeed off though, and they could have used photos of the mummy of Ramesses III and consulted an egyptologist to get the features right, if they were indeed trying to depict him or his family.

 

[Dickie]

Sheeeeeeit.

 

[EccentricLecher]

Looks really bad. Kinda like every game they've released since 2012. I bet it's going to come with even more overpriced, day-one DLC like every game made after Napoleon.

 

[Pocgels]

There are probably better settings they could've picked. I know there are some people who like chariots and stuff, but it's a niche.
And I can play as Egypt in Rome, Medieval, or even warhammer and it always feels very Egyptian. So I can't really justify spending the 100+ USD that this game will inevitably end up being.

 

[Lacrymas]

From where I'm standing, this looks like a game for people who liked Troy but wanted it to be more bland. I guess it's going to be fine since it's CA Sofia who are working on it (i.e. their best team), but I'm afraid they are going to shy away from what made Troy good and different in the first place. I'll probably get it somewhere down the line at a deep, deep discount if it turns out ok because I like the setting a lot.

 

[Reina]

Christ, Codex and its obsession with skin colour. Take a look at, I don't know, Egyptian national football team

Half of the guys have similar complexion to the Pharaoh in the promo material. But no, it must be global conspiracy to replace pure white egyptians with nefarious negro. Meh.

As for the game, I am here only for the Hittites, assuming the game does them justice. I think first AoE was the only game in the genre that gave them some spotlight.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

They made his features appear, if anything, African American, who are part European part West African in phenotype:

correct and if they bother to look up the transatlantic slave trade map they'd understand the regions that the majority of African Americans originated from.

Notice how the north african and sudan area is being moved into mainly middle eastern, indian and asian territories but these are a minority. Notice the majority appear to have migrated out of the Congo for South America and along the Ivory and Gold coasts for North America.
Now granted the chat shows there was probably circulation of those people and that they may have ended up in the Americas... however those would be a very small proportion. And then you have to go a step further and prove a direct genetic lineage to Kemetic Egyptians - not gonna be easy.

The real reason a lot of this confusion is happening is because 1. an unwillingness to America to admit what happened because its guilty for why these people have no heritage and history (blame the Europeans all you want, but for 100 years 1800-1900 nothing got done to fix this so this is now the mess we have) 2. that because of an absence of history they therefore need to co-opt other cultures, this is like the equivalent of believing your own fan fiction. No one is saying you can't be inspired, no one is saying you can't share in that culture (look at the Egyptian resurgence of the 1980s and Freemasonry's use of Kemetic design language - its not stealing heritage its honouring it I doubt any mason would claim to be kemetic) You're allowed to like the culture, but do not claim to be its originator 3. In some cases this is also African Americans seeking out revenge by bastardising history (which is proving really the point that they're no better than the people that did it to them in the first place). And then 4. It makes them feel entitled to exemptions and respect they didn't earn in the first place. (though Europeans can be very guilty of that no doubt, For Australia we are 100% guilty of this but we're self aware enough to at least attempt to fix it however lacking in effort it might be - this is why we have acknowledgement of country here).

Egyptian national football team

Ya do know that the Egyptians were conqured by Persians and then Muslim empires, most of the kemetic traits have been replaced by middle eastern ones. There's several thousand years to consider.
I'm not saying you're wrong, more that its not that simple.

Extra-Extra hard mode: Prove that Atlantis exists and prove genetic lineage lol

 

[IMPERIVM RECTVM]

Ya do know that the Egyptians were conqured by Persians and then Muslim empires, most of the kemetic traits have been replaced by middle eastern ones. There's several thousand years to consider.
I'm not saying you're wrong, more that its not that simple.

Persians and "muslim empires" didn't make huge impact on Egyptians' genes.

 

[IMPERIVM RECTVM]

Christ, Codex and its obsession with skin colour. Take a look at, I don't know, Egyptian national football team

Half of the guys have similar complexion to the Pharaoh in the promo material. But no, it must be global conspiracy to replace pure white egyptians with nefarious negro. Meh.

As for the game, I am here only for the Hittites, assuming the game does them justice. I think first AoE was the only game in the genre that gave them some spotlight.

Yeah, we wuz pharohs and shiet seems to be common mental illness nowadays.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

Persians and "muslim empires" didn't make huge impact on Egyptians' genes.

Having researched it further just then, it I can concede this is true up to a point, it appears the biggest impacts come from Greek/Macedonian rule over Egypt as marriages to Macedonian nobility tended to improve quality of life, and it was for long enough time that it did shape some of the population's genetic dispositions but of course not all. It's really difficult to point down what a completely authentic Egyptian would look like, especially as their self depictions are quite glamourised. <-for clarity Sculptures of Pharaohs were the photoshop of their age, they made themselves look much more attractive than they actually were, we have mummies yes but all of the recreations from them are always in dispute.

 

[IMPERIVM RECTVM]

Persians and "muslim empires" didn't make huge impact on Egyptians' genes.

Having researched it further just then, it I can concede this is true up to a point, it appears the biggest impacts come from Greek/Macedonian rule over Egypt as marriages to Macedonian nobility tended to improve quality of life, and it was for long enough time that it did shape some of the population's genetic dispositions but of course not all. It's really difficult to point down what a completely authentic Egyptian would look like, especially as their self depictions are quite glamourised.

Completely authentic? Sounds like a perfectionist fallacy. Reina is simply right on this one the ancient egyptians genetics is mostly similar to modern day one and both black and white race obsessed people try to claim they were the original Egyptians which is wrong.

I don't know about the Macedonian rule having an impact on genetics. Most likely during hellenistic period due to increase on trades and travels on Alexandria made some genetic impact but I doubt it's something huge as vast majority of Egytians were rural farmers didn't interact with foreigners much. And foreign conquerors didn't try to replace these people with their own as they saw no reason to.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

and to add to your point too Kemet was notoriously Xenophobic so if that was a very ingrained quality that had gone on for millennia then yeah I can definitely see your point. It would be the majority that represents what a Kemetic Egyptian looked like not the other way around. The evidence shows that, so my apologies. I don't pretend to be an authority on this subject at all, I just find it fascinating, Kemet is a mystery one I'd like to someday see resolved, but we sure as hell ain't gettin there with this game that's for sure lol - I updated the previous post to clarify as well what I meant by "Authentic" because that was probably too loaded a term.

 

[Lord_Potato]

Ya do know that the Egyptians were conqured by Persians and then Muslim empires, most of the kemetic traits have been replaced by middle eastern ones. There's several thousand years to consider.
I'm not saying you're wrong, more that its not that simple.

Persians and "muslim empires" didn't make huge impact on Egyptians' genes.

Persians most likely didn't, they only occupied Egypt for a reasonably short period. Arabs though stayed for the next 1400 years (after conquest of around 639 AD), changing the ethnic composition of Egypt to the point most Egyptians today consider themselves Arabs.

 

[Hace El Oso]

Christ, Codex and its obsession with skin colour. Take a look at, I don't know, Egyptian national football team

Half of the guys have similar complexion to the Pharaoh in the promo material. But no, it must be global conspiracy to replace pure white egyptians with nefarious negro. Meh.

Even if you’re willfully blind to facial structure, don’t you have the artistic sense to see totally different shades of color anymore, or have you deprived yourself of that too? How do you dress yourself?

Even pop history garbage like ‘The History Channel’ can handle this distinction:

According to you, they’re the same man!

I won’t bother to mention actual facial reconstruction.

Warning: Disconcertingly Non-Kang King

 

[IMPERIVM RECTVM]

and to add to your point too Kemet was notoriously Xenophobic so if that was a very ingrained quality that had gone on for millennia then yeah I can definitely see your point. It would be the majority that represents what a Kemetic Egyptian looked like not the other way around. The evidence shows that, so my apologies. I don't pretend to be an authority on this subject at all, I just find it fascinating, Kemet is a mystery one I'd like to someday see resolved, but we sure as hell ain't gettin there with this game that's for sure lol - I updated the previous post to clarify as well what I meant by "Authentic" because that was probably too loaded a term.

It's okay to be wrong, neither I am authority as well. I think much of the misunderstandings caused by R1b haplogroup which is both present in Europe and Africa, inclluding Subsaharan Africa as well, altough different subgroup. The culture war and misunderstandings of how ancient identities work make things especially difficult. I doubt Egytpians would feel affinity to anyone but themselves regardless similarity of looks or linguistics, they were so stubborn with their culture and religion the foreign rulers had to assimilate to their culture, hardly specific to Egytpians but still gives a clue.

Christ, Codex and its obsession with skin colour. Take a look at, I don't know, Egyptian national football team



Half of the guys have similar complexion to the Pharaoh in the promo material. But no, it must be global conspiracy to replace pure white egyptians with nefarious negro. Meh.

we wuzing