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Warhammer Total War: Warhammer 2

Nathir

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
1,097
Decided to try out multiplayer during the weekend, I'm pretty sure I went like 2/15. :negative:

Picked Tomb kings and Khatep since that's what I started playing as. Obviously I'm a noob, who still hovered over the pause button every now and then, but TK's do not seem like the most noob friendly faction. Your infantry is shit, and you really need to pick the right elite units for the matchup, because they are so expensive. Dwarfs/Empire/Couronne seem to comprise 60% of my opponents. Dwarfs and Empire felt bullshit to play against. Everyone just turtled with artillery. The two games I won I also went heavy artillery lol. And my enemies were orcs and vampire counts who went heavy on infantry.

It's fun and I will try to get better at this, but it also does feel like the faction Matchup and army composition are half of the battle.
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,514
The multiplayer is super lame. Who plays fantasy total war for the competitive mp battles lmao. Go play a regular total war game. Load up on mods and do crazy shit like ruling the old world by turn 50.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,264
Decided to try out multiplayer during the weekend, I'm pretty sure I went like 2/15. :negative:

Picked Tomb kings and Khatep since that's what I started playing as. Obviously I'm a noob, who still hovered over the pause button every now and then, but TK's do not seem like the most noob friendly faction. Your infantry is shit, and you really need to pick the right elite units for the matchup, because they are so expensive. Dwarfs/Empire/Couronne seem to comprise 60% of my opponents. Dwarfs and Empire felt bullshit to play against. Everyone just turtled with artillery. The two games I won I also went heavy artillery lol. And my enemies were orcs and vampire counts who went heavy on infantry.

It's fun and I will try to get better at this, but it also does feel like the faction Matchup and army composition are half of the battle.

Faction Balance in TWWH2 is very simple.



But yeah, there's a lot of matchup stuff. Trying to field a fully "balanced" army that fights the same way against every race fails pretty hard. Tomb Kings specifically have some of the best monsters and the best ways to counter them are artillery (especially stuff like Dwarf Cannons), so any Empire or Dwarf player is going to artillery spam and use whatever they can to nullify your big boys. Going artillery yourself vs. them would also be suicide since their artillery can just delete yours.
 

Nirvash

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 20, 2017
Messages
1,154
I never autobattled so hard before in a total war game, i just don't have the willpower to micro those countless fullstacks PLUS the moba like lords using skills.
Not counting all the crazy artillery, monsters and even fly stuff.
 
Self-Ejected

underground nymph

I care not!
Patron
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
1,252
Strap Yourselves In
I’m really craving for something similar (warhammer fb) but with smaller scale battles=less units (so I could micro them more efficiently), something with grimmer atmosphere and deeper strategic layer + sophisticated leveling for units and heroes. Some beaten up cliche WFB plot gonna work just fine. Think of Mark of Chaos but with the quality of production on par with TW franchise.

Though nobody liked DLC mini campaigns, I quite enjoyed Beastmen’s one, it was somewhat near to what I‘ve described above. Diplomacy could be abandoned in favor of hardwired allies affected by the same turbulent sandbox world.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,542
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I’m really craving for something similar (warhammer fb) but with smaller scale battles=less units (so I could micro them more efficiently), something with grimmer atmosphere and deeper strategic layer + sophisticated leveling for units and heroes. Some beaten up cliche WFB plot gonna work just fine. Think of Mark of Chaos but with the quality of production on par with TW franchise.

Though nobody liked DLC mini campaigns, I quite enjoyed Beastmen’s one, it was somewhat near to what I‘ve described above. Diplomacy could be abandoned in favor of hardwired allies affected by the same turbulent sandbox world.
Smaller battles and more traits would be neat. Otherwise, I would propose Closer to Table Top and Table Top Unit caps to get you partially there (assuming you have not already tried it). CTT provides an additional layer using traits for many units. For example, artillery and chariots can receive damage if you run them into tree lines.

While Table Top Unit Caps falls short of smaller armies imo, it does limit elite and monster units. Accordingly, you have a smaller number of elite units to manage and a greater proportion of canon fodder to set and forget (somewhat).
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
22,692
Frankly. Grand strategy is about preparing plan on large area, doing detailed economy, research, and then hit enemy with more units, because he used strategically bad plan. Or you handled economy better. Normal battles in WH2 should be easily 5vs 3 units. But, current version is about 20 units vs 20 units and so on...

There were games where strategic part was simplified, or missing, and they didn't feel like proper strategic games. Thus they were forgotten.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,542
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
Table Top Unit Caps
Tried this one, it’s ok and must have, yet I’d love it to limit units more deliberately depending on Lord background/traits, or technologies, or particular faction.
Closer to Table Top
I’m kind of trying to avoid such overhauls. Though I may be wrong on this one.
Here is the google doc link that explains all the traits, changes, etc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lK7oNq1jIxItvno_CfqCR1RY-4m-mIGtuWy2S9gOvEM/mobilebasic

Personally, it took me time to adjust, because certain units and lords are far squishier, but it’s well done.
 

rashiakas

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Oct 4, 2011
Messages
820
Pathfinder: Wrath
one adds caps to armies, the other to buildings. So even if you have several buildings to recruit elite units, you can only field a certain amount per army.
 
Self-Ejected

underground nymph

I care not!
Patron
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
1,252
Strap Yourselves In
Having fun with CTT and Table Top Unit Caps. Somewhat reignited my interest in the game. Shame caps are not enabled by default in vanilla.
 
Self-Ejected

underground nymph

I care not!
Patron
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
1,252
Strap Yourselves In
Though rogue armies still might have 12 forest dragons and steamroll factions who can only posses a limited roster.

My legendary campaign for Naggaroth was going pretty good, I’ve secured all the northern map, and my druchi allies were ok at souther regions. Everything was ok until Tyrion came with 6 stacks and kicked my ass.:negative:
 

Axioms

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2019
Messages
1,514
I mean you own all of the old world but you can only build 4 hellfire rockets? doesn't make sense. Balanced battles are impossible and logically inconsistent with a campaign layer.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
I never autobattled so hard before in a total war game, i just don't have the willpower to micro those countless fullstacks PLUS the moba like lords using skills.
Not counting all the crazy artillery, monsters and even fly stuff.

Auto resolve is there when you cannot be arsed, if you mean the Ordertide or Chaos Invasion then I can understand that at one point its all very dull but this is because Mortal Empires is WH1 campaign and very basic, Vortex is more "diverse" due to intervention armies so its not like fighting the same enemies over and over because of starting position and expansion add one try to break from the "same old, same old" by putting objectives in a way you have to fight very different armies.

But if you mean "I hate fantasy" then fuck off, the biggest problem with TW:WH is that very often you just fight the same armies over and over until you are tired of seeing another Empire stack ... this is the real fatigue when its the 28th Dark Elf battle, that when you consolidate there is nothing really left besides moving on about completing the Campaign objectives, something they tried to solve with the expansions not really being the same Vortex Campaign except playing as Tomb Kings, they have their own Vortex objectives separated from TW:WH2 Vortex campaign objectives.
 

Olinser

Savant
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
977
Location
Denial
I never autobattled so hard before in a total war game, i just don't have the willpower to micro those countless fullstacks PLUS the moba like lords using skills.
Not counting all the crazy artillery, monsters and even fly stuff.

Auto resolve is there when you cannot be arsed, if you mean the Ordertide or Chaos Invasion then I can understand that at one point its all very dull but this is because Mortal Empires is WH1 campaign and very basic, Vortex is more "diverse" due to intervention armies so its not like fighting the same enemies over and over because of starting position and expansion add one try to break from the "same old, same old" by putting objectives in a way you have to fight very different armies.

But if you mean "I hate fantasy" then fuck off, the biggest problem with TW:WH is that very often you just fight the same armies over and over until you are tired of seeing another Empire stack ... this is the real fatigue when its the 28th Dark Elf battle, that when you consolidate there is nothing really left besides moving on about completing the Campaign objectives, something they tried to solve with the expansions not really being the same Vortex Campaign except playing as Tomb Kings, they have their own Vortex objectives separated from TW:WH2 Vortex campaign objectives.

I'm almost 100% achievements and I've played a few hundred hours, on every faction. Some of the Mortal Empires victories were just utterly boring slogs.

The main problem is that the AI is absolutely no challenge on even the hardest setting, and it also has very little variety. After about 30-40 turns, all of their armies are pretty much the same composition, and you get tired of killing the same Lord over and over and over again as you slowly move forward. You just get so utterly sick of killing Karl Franz and Louen Louencour and their stupid flying Gryphons because way, WAY too many factions have 'kill Empire and Couronne' as requirements for even their short victory objective. Vampires, Beastmen, Norsca, Chaos, you get so utterly SICK of killing the Empire and moving south to take the big concentration of capitals basically required to get the stupid 8 capitals (Miragliano, Sartosa, and.... Skavenblight is it? The Skaven one right next to Miragliano). That concentration of 3 capitals is about the only thing that makes half the campaigns bearable, you can take those 3, then sail over and take the Galleon Graveyard and sail south and take Awakening in the span of about 15-20 turns once you get in the area for 5 capitals.

Don't get me wrong, I think its a great game, its just the AI is so BORING to slog against. If you survive the first 10 turns, you've effectively won the game. You just have to constantly march armies across your border taking back stupid towns they take with no chance of keeping as they throw army after army at you that you kill without even losing a unit while you SLOWLY march across the stupid Empire, and on higher difficulty settings you have to either build a Public Order building in every town or constantly put down rebel stacks. And half the time when you're close to winning they drag another faction into the war, then confederate another faction to just extend the area you have to conquer. And don't even get me started on the idiocy of Couronne confederating Repanse and forcing you to sail 20 turns out of the way to finish him off.

The Horde armies with 'kill Empire' are even worse because you can do nothing but burn settlements down and try to shepherd a faction you aren't killing to take it back. And then if they confederate the faction that settled the ones you razed, then you have to go back and raze it AGAIN.

The Vortex goals were all pretty good, mainly because you don't have a specified area you need to conquer - sure you've got bonus ritual locations, but if a random faction declares war on you, you don't feel like you're just wasting your time conquering them. And the nonstandard ones like Vampire Coast and Khemri had reasonably engaging campaigns.

But like in Mortal Empires, if you don't have them as a destroy goal and the Skaven or Black Crag or KK dwarves declare war on you, you almost may as well restart for the ridiculous amount of time you waste fighting them for something that gets you absolutely no benefit towards winning.

They don't all need individual campaigns, but they REALLY need to overhaul the Mortal Empires goals, or add some kind of 'mercy rule' where if you kill the enemy faction leader 5+ or 10+ times they are considered 'defeated' for the purposes of the war goal.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,876
Location
Italy
completely, 200% disagree. only thing allies do is drag you into an avalanche of pointless wars too far from you to influence of even care, but will provide you with the random, unexpected stack in the butthole of nowhere which will raze some of your cities.
 
Self-Ejected

underground nymph

I care not!
Patron
Joined
Jun 9, 2019
Messages
1,252
Strap Yourselves In
completely, 200% disagree. only thing allies do is drag you into an avalanche of pointless wars too far from you to influence of even care, but will provide you with the random, unexpected stack in the butthole of nowhere which will raze some of your cities.
In beginning — yes. But if you’ll manage to keep ‘em safe and free to expand they’ll end up number one power at mid game. Number one power you’re free to throw at anybody you don’t like.
 

Olinser

Savant
Joined
Nov 1, 2018
Messages
977
Location
Denial
completely, 200% disagree. only thing allies do is drag you into an avalanche of pointless wars too far from you to influence of even care, but will provide you with the random, unexpected stack in the butthole of nowhere which will raze some of your cities.
In beginning — yes. But if you’ll manage to keep ‘em safe and free to expand they’ll end up number one power at mid game. Number one power you’re free to throw at anybody you don’t like.

False. UNLESS you can confederate them, allowing any AI military ally other than KaK is worse than useless. They can't win wars without your help anyway, and they have an extreme tendency to drag you into wars when you're already at war and not in position to fight another one at the same time, they very often declare wars and then do nothing to actually attack, and because of the autoresolve almost no faction other than KaK can actually take a fortified capital unless they sit there for 20 turns (something the AI will not allow).

Why would I keep an AI faction 'safe' instead of just taking the territory myself? A single one of my stacks is worth 3 AI stacks.

At its heart is the stupid mechanic that means if you are military allied you CANNOT refuse to join a new war they are involved in without breaking the alliance.

Trade certainly has its place for a lot of factions, but military alliance is useless unless its the final capitals you need for the victory.

AI are food, not friends.
 

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