Warhammer Total War: Warhammer III

[Fedora Master]

Remember when they reversed the effects of elevation in Rome 2 and didn't notice until a few patches in?

 

[Caim]

Remember when they reversed the effects of elevation in Rome 2 and didn't notice until a few patches in?

Probably because people were focussed on stuff like this:

 

[Tyrr]

Spoiler

FEATURE FOCUS #1: ELEVATION​

FEATURES & MECHANICS

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CA_oxfordcomma


May 15 2023

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Greetings!
Today we’re kicking off a series of blogs that are a little different to our norm in which we take a deep dive into some of the grittier aspects of Total War: WARHAMMER III, tearing into the real meat of the game and pulling apart its entrails for all to see.
The aim is to explore some of the often-overlooked areas of the game at a developer level, with the aim of squashing some of the mysteries surrounding the many, many systems found in WARHAMMER III.
Helping us get our head round things is WARHAMMER III designer William Håkestad.
We begin with a look at elevation. How much does having the high ground really change the course of battle? Let’s find out!

ELEVATION 101​

You’ve quite likely seen the “Units with the high ground enjoy a significant advantage when fighting on sloped terrain” loading screen tip, but have you ever wondered ‘how’?
Let’s peel back the curtain a bit using a force that some say is more dangerous than any of the dark gods… Maths!

In Total War, you control ‘units’ that comprise individual ‘entities’. For example, an Empire Swordsmen unit is a collection of 120 Swordsmen entities.
The elevation calculations happen at the entity level. This means that when calculating the bonus an attack should gain from elevation, the relative height between the attacking and defending entities is determined regardless of the overall situation of their units. Therefore, the numbers can vary when fighting on particularly bumpy terrain, or if a unit is deployed across a slope.

Regarding about elevation in combat, there are three key cases where it becomes relevant:

• Projectiles
• Melee Attacks
• Locomotion

PROJECTILES​

When a projectile hits an entity, we generate a ‘height delta’ that is equal to the difference in vertical height between the firing and receiving entities, calculated from the base of each (sorry Henri – being tall does not actually factor into elevation modifiers).
We use this delta to give the unit a height coefficient value for the attack. This coefficient linearly scales up to a maximum delta of 40 metres, at which point it caps out at 30%. So, a ranged unit firing down upon their target from 40 metres or above is doing a respectable 30% extra damage!
It’s important to highlight that this delta can also be a negative, and a ranged unit firing at a target that is 40m above them is doing 30% less damage. So, in practice, assuming a pair of otherwise equally matched ranged combatants are shooting at each other, the one with the high ground is enjoying 184% of the damage of their target’s volley!
This isn’t mutually assured destruction – it’s a complete slaughter.
As a practical example, an Empire Crossbowman firing at an Empire Swordsman roughly 32 meters below them gains one point of armour piercing and four points of base missile damage from his elevation, netting him a modest four extra damage after calculating for the armour roll in this interaction.
Now four damage might sound like a very small difference, but consider that an Empire Swordsman has 69 hit points for every entity in the unit.

• 69/23 = 3
• 69/19 = 3.6

By taking this high ground, the Crossbowman can potentially take out a Swordsman in three crossbow bolts instead of four. Plus, this interaction repeats over 100 times in every volley, meaning that small, consistent bonuses can cascade into huge performance improvements in practice.
Let’s look at one final example:

In this case, the high ground advantage has an approximate coefficient of 25%, and this bonus compounds into the unit with an elevated position, letting them rout the otherwise identical enemy unit while maintaining an additional 1,000 health, and with twenty extra entities left standing. It will be in much better shape later in the battle if it has a chance to contribute again.
Taking all of this into account, here are two common scenarios that you can take advantage of in WARHAMMER III:
Walls

• Walls and other elements common to settlement battles provide opportunities to gain an elevation bonus over your opponent, alongside some potential added benefits like partial cover against projectiles.

Flying Units

• Flying units hover roughly 16 meters above the ground, and so they benefit from an elevation damage bonus of 12% if their target is standing on ground level. Remember that this also means they take roughly 12% less damage from missiles fired from those same targets. As such, flying units placed above already tall terrain compound their additional height and quickly reach high coefficients (though, like all units, a height delta exceeding 40 metres does not grant any further benefit).

MELEE​

This works exactly like the projectile examples above in every way with a single, functional difference – the maximum coefficient is achieved at one meter of difference between the attacker and the defender.
It’s worth remembering that these deltas are calculated between individual entities in their respective units, thus introducing a much greater level of uncertainty into an engagement as fighters jostle around in the fray, gaining and losing height advantage relative to their target. Over an entire engagement, however, the unit with the overall better position on a slope will average higher, reliable coefficients, alongside the much stricter requirements for the height delta of one meter.
Let’s pit a unit of Swordsmen against a unit of Spearmen on a very steep slope.

Normally, Swordsmen can handle the more specialised Spearmen with ease, thanks to their greater melee stats and higher damage. But, when the Spearmen attack from the high ground, their advantage swings this matchup back in their favour, further highlighting how the effective usage of the terrain can let a unit take fights it would otherwise be unable to.
In the engagement pictured above, the usual decisive victory for the swordsmen gets flipped to a narrow victory for the spearmen!

LOCOMOTION​

The high ground isn’t just about fighting. OK, it’s mostly about fighting, but slopes can also affect how quickly a unit travels and how much fatigue they suffer while doing it.

Take this Red Crested Skink Chief running up and down the slopes of the Grimminhagen.
Units moving across uneven surfaces have a value called a ‘locomotion gradient’ which has a value of zero on a perfectly flat surface and trends either upwards or downwards when moving up or down a slope.
Travelling downhill here, the Red Crested Skink Chief reports an ‘actual speed’ value of 5.8 m/s, which is higher than the 46 listed on his unit info panel (we multiply all speed numbers by 10 for display in game to help keep the whole numbers nice and readable!)
This speed change is because the slope he’s moving down has a locomotion gradient of roughly -0.26, which we subtract from the default speed multiplier of 1.0, resulting in a 26% speed increase. Technically, a unit can achieve up to a 50% speed increase given a comically steep surface, but we cap the value there for sanity purposes.
Spinning him around and running him back up the slope slows him down to a more modest 3.62 actual speed value – a 22% decrease, roughly.
In short, if you’re trying to put some space between yourself and some enemy archers, you should probably not run up a hill! And, equally, you should probably not deploy your own vulnerable ranged units near the base of a hill, where the enemy can take advantage of the increased speed to close the gap faster while simultaneously taking less damage from your low ground fire.
Collision impact damage must also be considered. This is a very complex topic that we might dive into more deeply in a later blog, but the short and sweet version reads like this: Entities moving faster when they collide with the enemy will deal more damage and cause higher knockback based on their relative velocity to the target.
In other words, the most brutal charges are delivered downhill!
Finally, the locomotion gradient is also used to penalise the fatigue of units moving up steep slopes, though do keep in mind that no fatigue benefit is gained by going downhill.
In our example above, the gradient of 0.26 triggers the most severe fatigue penalty, increasing the amount of fatigue the unit gains by a whopping 150%!
Here are the fatigue numbers in detail:

• Gradients steeper than 0.2 increase fatigue gain by 150%
• Gradients steeper than 0.1 increase fatigue gain by 100%
• Gradients steeper than 0.05 increase fatigue gain by 50%

BREAKING THE RULES WITH STRIDER​

Got all that? Good, because units with the ‘Strider’ attribute ignore a lot of what’s listed above!
A Strider unit doesn’t suffer any of the typical penalties when it comes to dealing damage, although it is still subject to the typical penalties when it comes to receiving it. So, such a unit deals full damage (but no extra) while shooting at someone above it and deals full damage (plus extra) when shooting someone below it.
A Strider’s actions negate the penalties, but his reactions do not.

NEXT UP​

And we’re done! The ground has levelled out and everyone’s knackered. Hopefully you learned something new and it didn’t leave you tilted.
Our next Feature Focus blog will examine at the overall concept of damage – both how it’s dealt and how to defend yourself against it. Also on the way are deep dives into projectiles and target penetration. Plus, we’ll be parallel parking our way into the topic of chariots, mass and charges.
As always, your feedback is welcomed. See you on the battlefield!
– The Total War Team

Theres some good info here. I didnt know strider also affected projectiles.

No prequel meme? I'm disappointed.

 

[copebot]

Theres some good info here. I didnt know strider also affected projectiles.

That's pretty wild. I thought it just affected forest penalty and movement speed. It also means that archers that have strider don't have penalties shooting at walls.

I hadn't really thought of this, but it also means that units that fly and shoot are better than they seem; and units that fly also have stronger charge bonuses than they seem to.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Men, wow...
Playing as Kugath in IE, got most of my starting territories and eliminated Ghorst and Gold Tooth. But fuck me sideways, main problem was Imrik. Dunno how I'll handle him with low-mid tier Nurgle armies, bloody dragon lover is too strong alone, faster and he always got some fire wizard with him.
I'll try to assassinate the wizard (lol) and then ambush him for a better AR.

 

[Average Manatee]

Nurgle magic has a direct damage spell for sniping characters. Hopefully he doesn't have other dragons though.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Nurgle magic has a direct damage spell for sniping characters. Hopefully he doesn't have other dragons though.

4 dragons and %40 magic resistance. My other thought was to snipe him with death and nurgle magic but he ran back and used his healing ability...

Alraedy allied chaos dwarves so I'm thinking to attack him with some blunderbusses but don't know how effective they'll be in my army. Other plan is to slow him with plagues and got a beast of nurgle and soul grinder doomstack and finish him of before going bankrupt. Thankfully nurgle got good sacking income.

 

[Elttharion]

Not sure were to post this but CA just leaked their new Total War game, its called

Spoiler

Total war: Pharaoh

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

RIP Medieval 3

 

[Caim]

Gotta wonder if they're going make it an actual historical game or that they're once again going to put in fantasy stuff.

 

[Gromoer]

actual historical game

 

[Fedora Master]

CA are too British to make anything but pure Wewuzery

Also the fuck is TW Elysium?
E: "Unleash your inner General in this brand-new strategy card game from the award-winning developers of Total War."

FUCK OFF WITH THE CARDS GODFUCKINGDAMN

 

[Elttharion]

Gotta wonder if they're going make it an actual historical game or that they're once again going to put in fantasy stuff.

I would hope for a fully historical game but I am convinced they chose this setting and era exactly because they would be able to add fantasy stuff. Medieval 3 or Empire 2 would be much more popular, for example.

 

[copebot]

I don't think it really benefits them to try to have multiple fantasy games. People will just stick with Warhammer.

Their other problem is just needing to reinvent the wheel constantly. I'm not sure how Troy eventually wound up, but it was ruined early on by things like chariots having infinite mass. I would really like a TW: Peloponnesian War with naval battles or a Medieval 3 combined with a bigger focus on the Middle Eastern powers but I'm not going to get either of them.

 

[RobotSquirrel]

Not sure were to post this but CA just leaked their new Total War game, its called

Spoiler

Total war: Pharaoh

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

RIP Medieval 3

Spoiler

Cleopatra is now black because Jada came into the studio and gave everyone a BJ in front of Will
Now shut up and enjoy all the bugs we haven't fixed since Empire

 

[Lacrymas]

Wow, a historical title that I'm actually interested in. This hasn't been the case since Rome 1. If they do introduce fantasy elements, I'm down for it as well, especially if the CA Sofia team is working on it since Troy is still the best contemporary TW.

 

[hivemind]

three kingdoms is the only total war which is an actually good game beyond being just arcade spectacle

every time i turn on 3k with those like korean/chinese autism mods i am just fucking blown away how much better it is than warhammer and even the old historical titles

 

[Elttharion]

More info

 

[pickmeister]

three kingdoms is the only total war which is an actually good game beyond being just arcade spectacle

every time i turn on 3k with those like korean/chinese autism mods i am just fucking blown away how much better it is than warhammer and even the old historical titles

Please specify in what ways is it better than Warhammer 3. I keep reading it's much better and I'd like to know the details.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not hard to be better than WH3. Even Thrones of Britannia is better than WH3.

 

[hivemind]

Please specify in what ways is it better than Warhammer 3. I keep reading it's much better and I'd like to know the details.

The diplomacy is much more coherent, game keeps being continuously fun even in the lategame (no more stopping at turn 80 out because everything is tedium now) and there is actual gameplay outside of battles.

Having the focus be on characters who can be more than just generals makes it feel much closer to a 4x vibe rather than just arcade player-bias deathmatch with no rhyme and reason. Managing food, population and the income from your provinces is much more involved than even the chorf economy in wh3.

The retinue system is amazing ad something that absolutely is needed in medieval 3.

The game is also imo much more coherent to it's setting, the map naturally tends towards a three kingdoms ish state as you fight for hegemony over china, just like what the novel is about. While warhammer honestly doesn't feel very warhammerish beyond the visual spectacle in the battles.

 

[AwesomeButton]

It's not hard to be better than WH3. Even Thrones of Britannia is better than WH3.

What about WH2 vs WH1? In my few attempts to play WH2 I've always been put off by the ugly lighting and I go back to WH1.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not hard to be better than WH3. Even Thrones of Britannia is better than WH3.

What about WH2 vs WH1? In my few attempts to play WH2 I've always been put off by the ugly lighting and I go back to WH1.

Total Warhammer has been a complete failure from where I'm standing tbh. It doesn't do anything well and it's worse in every possible way when compared even to other Total War titles.

 

[Gromoer]

It's not hard to be better than WH3. Even Thrones of Britannia is better than WH3.

Thrones is good actually. I’ve overlooked it at first, but gave it another try recently and boy it’s decently done game. But I wouldn’t compare these titles in terms of which is better. They all do their stuff, which you may like or may not. It’s totally upon the market to decide what to buy and CA will follow it fervently. I’ll go as far as to say it was Thrones which was the final straw that convinced CA to drop the simulation part of the franchise and focus on cool models that sell like a miracle.

 

[pickmeister]

It's not hard to be better than WH3. Even Thrones of Britannia is better than WH3.

Could you make a coherent argument?

The diplomacy is much more coherent, game keeps being continuously fun even in the lategame (no more stopping at turn 80 out because everything is tedium now) and there is actual gameplay outside of battles.

Having the focus be on characters who can be more than just generals makes it feel much closer to a 4x vibe rather than just arcade player-bias deathmatch with no rhyme and reason. Managing food, population and the income from your provinces is much more involved than even the chorf economy in wh3.

The retinue system is amazing ad something that absolutely is needed in medieval 3.

The game is also imo much more coherent to it's setting, the map naturally tends towards a three kingdoms ish state as you fight for hegemony over china, just like what the novel is about. While warhammer honestly doesn't feel very warhammerish beyond the visual spectacle in the battles.

That read like a reddit comment and didn't tell me much but I appreciate the effort.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not hard to be better than WH3. Even Thrones of Britannia is better than WH3.

Could you make a coherent argument?

1. Shockingly same-y factions that play almost identically, both on the strategy and battle map. The races' lore isn't utilized in any interesting way. Where are the orc spores? Zombies and skeletons have public order problems? Even mechanics which are there, like vampiric corruption, are easily ignorable or circumvented by building one building.
2. The strategy and tactics are simple spreadsheets with braindead solutions to made-up problems (like the aforementioned public order problems zombies seem to have). There are 0 notable differences between black orcs, Empire greatswords, graveguard or chosen beyond minuscule stat changes. There are realistically only 4-5 units in the whole game - basic infantry, heavy infantry, ranged, cavalry, and monsters.
3. Really similar battles due to point 2 that are made worse by the fact there is a very obvious meta which is far and above anything else you can field. The incompetent AI doesn't help here. This point can't be overstated because battles are basically predetermined, it's all about number crunching in the background and there's very little you can do to radically change an outcome of a battle in the vast majority of cases.
4. Even though everything is excruciatingly streamlined, some factions and LLs still end up freakishly overpowered or borderline unplayable due to how weak they are.
5. Terrible battle engine that makes melee units in combat behave like water molecules, the ranks bunch up awkwardly and wait for the units in-front of them to die in order to replace them. You know what I'm talking about.
6. Magic and ranged are too overpowered, once you get one vortex spell you can defeat 3-4 full armies in a single battle by spamming that alone.
7. Unplayable sieges due to many, many problems. The maps are too big, with winding streets that even 1 unit has problems navigating; the walls are actually a burden to the defender and fighting on top of the walls is still bugged to this day; the AI can't utilize these maps at all and just bunches up on the walls, which just makes them easy targets for artillery; etc. etc.
8. Town advancement goes (optional) military buildings -> public order building -> money building. Everything else is irrelevant and this schema gets copy/pasted in each province with no variation.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg, there are *so* many issues with this game that I have no idea why it's so popular, especially in the face of much, much better games in its own franchise, including the much-maligned Troy.