Warhammer Total War: Warhammer III

[Fedora Master]

Less morale/faster crumbling for undead? Who asked for that?

The multiplayer guys? I heard that undead factions do better in Domination mode than others thanks to their units not running away or quickly crumbling like demons.

Nobody fucking likes Domination

 

[thesheeep]

i would say crumbling dont matter so much for players playing undead, but they will be much easier to defeat now. Snipe the lord tactics to work again?

I haven't tried, but it reads like it is only a slight nerf.
The crumbling happens faster, but it's also been toned down, so...

 

[Tyrr]

but it's also been toned down

Crumbling wasn't toned down as far as I know. It was even turned up with the last patch.

From the latest patch notes:

Crumbling’s damage was increased in Update 2.2, but this change was not sufficient to counterbalance the high morale these three factions received in 2.0.

 

[thesheeep]

but it's also been toned down

Crumbling wasn't toned down as far as I know. It was even turned up with the last patch.

From the latest patch notes:

Crumbling’s damage was increased in Update 2.2, but this change was not sufficient to counterbalance the high morale these three factions received in 2.0.

Yeah, I read that wrong.
Well, then.

Just another nerf for the undead. It's fine - they've been the butt of patching jokes for years now, this isn't new.

 

[Haba]

B-but m-muh Chaos Dwarves.

You fucks.

 

[Average Manatee]

Just another nerf for the undead. It's fine - they've been the butt of patching jokes for years now, this isn't new.

Ehh? I thought consensus for both SP and MP was that vampire counts and tomb kings were both overpowered due to how healing was buffed (though tomb kings just got their healing nerfed in half which is way huger than the crumbling change). Plus there were other buffs in SP coming from WH2. Not sure on vampire coast though, haven't played them much.

Nobody fucking likes Domination

Yeah I think balancing around this is a huge mistake. It's focused too much on 1v1 unit matchups because your army size is limited and spread out, and it also lets you refill units ammo which is kind of broken honestly.

 

[thesheeep]

Ehh? I thought consensus for both SP and MP was that vampire counts and tomb kings were both overpowered due to how healing was buffed (though tomb kings just got their healing nerfed in half which is way huger than the crumbling change). Plus there were other buffs in SP coming from WH2. Not sure on vampire coast though, haven't played them much.

I can't speak about MP (because who cares?), but in SP it is true that you could exploit the hell out of undead healing.
But... just don't do the exploit, then? If you bunch up all your units and then cast very efficient heals + mortis engine on them, then yeah, you got an unstoppable blob of nigh-unlimited healing.

But in all normal cases, campaign gameplay for all undead factions is just way behind the others.
Though a lot of that is due to the races being much older - most old faction gameplay is pretty boring.
And VCoast has definitely been the butt of all jokes since forever with their one viable strategy (until recently, their "best tier" infantry was just straight useless, and got nerfed further in many patches ).

It's like saying furies are useful - the only reason they are useful is that their collision is bugged to hell and back (they have none) and all furies' models can occupy the same space, dealing insane damage in that spot.

Still, I'd have to play another VCoast or TK campaign to see how bad the nerf is, and I just finished one, so.... nah.

 

[Tyrr]

People forgot that Vampires lost the leadership bonus from corruption in WH3. So giving them more leadership wasn't that much of a buff.

 

[Average Manatee]

But in all normal cases, campaign gameplay for all undead factions is just way behind the others.
Though a lot of that is due to the races being much older - most old faction gameplay is pretty boring.

Not sure what you mean by this. WH3 factions are still barebones compared to most WH2 factions and some of the upgraded WH1 factions.

And VCoast has definitely been the butt of all jokes since forever with their one viable strategy (until recently, their "best tier" infantry was just straight useless, and got nerfed further in many patches ).

Most melee infantry has been various levels of useless in WH2. They received a huge buff in WH3 with the healing change (guessing you mean that was nerfed? but they are still stronger than before). Also not sure what you mean by one viable strategy. They are a shooty faction, they shoot a lot. Is skaven a one viable strategy faction in SP because no one uses stormvermin?

 

[Average Manatee]

Incidentally the AI "ranged unit target selection" criteria is retarded now. AI empire handgunners (very accurate and deadly even to lords) on VH refuse to fire on Mannfred even when he's well within range spamming spirit leech. This would be absolutely suicide in previous patches but they just stand there now.

I wonder if I made an all-hero army, would the AI just refuse to use their ranged units at all?

 

[thesheeep]

Most melee infantry has been various levels of useless in WH2.

Yes, but generally higher tier units are better than lower tier ones.
For VCoast, that was not the case. Depth Guard were terrible at dealing damage and even worse at holding the line. Syreens (a lower tier unit) beat them at both and the chaff beat them at line holding. There was zero reason to ever get Depth Guard.
At some point, a straight battle of one low-tier chaff unit vs one unit of Depth Guard saw the latter winning, but in a crumbling state dying shortly after. That's how absurd it was.

Now that they've been buffed a bit, they are... decent? You can use them now, anyway, to spice things up a little without feeling bad about it.

Also not sure what you mean by one viable strategy. They are a shooty faction, they shoot a lot. Is skaven a one viable strategy faction in SP because no one uses stormvermin?

I'm not talking about min-maxing.
Sure, every faction has one best strategy.
But Stormvermin are still viable, they beat their lower tier units at their job, you can win with them, they are "just" a worse option than others (or were, no idea about WH3).

But with VCoast you could put the shooty stuff behind crabs, because crabs are a) the best at holding the line and b) allow shooting through them as their models are far enough apart.
You need spaces to shoot through because while VCoast is ranged heavy, all are gunners, meaning they get blocked by your own frontline and are too slow to move around to reposition (unlike similar gunners like the Empire ones).

And that's it.
There was just nothing else you could reliably win engagements with (ignoring doom stacks). Any high-tier army should be able to win a match-up of similar value. You could not do that with an army focusing on Depth Guard because of how absurdly fast they died.
Even Cylostra only makes the ethereal units cheaper. Not stronger. So while an ethereal themed army is cool theme-wise, it was just not good, not even with the ethereal legendary lord.

 

[Average Manatee]

But Stormvermin are still viable, they beat their lower tier units at their job, you can win with them, they are "just" a worse option than others (or were, no idea about WH3).

Haven't tried them in WH3, but in WH2 there were really, really non-viable above normal difficulty. Their stats are barely above Empire Swordsmen taking into account red line bonuses.

But with VCoast you could put the shooty stuff behind crabs, because crabs are a) the best at holding the line and b) allow shooting through them as their models are far enough apart.
You need spaces to shoot through because while VCoast is ranged heavy, all are gunners, meaning they get blocked by your own frontline and are too slow to move around to reposition (unlike similar gunners like the Empire ones).

I don't really agree with that, they have mortars including the Bess (which can destroy fucking anything with the accuracy bonus spell from lore of the deep), they can spam zombie summons for a frontline, you don't need to shoot through your own units if you are using good formations and positioning, Syreens work well since phys resist works against getting shot in the back by AP damage and you can heal them.

Also their summon is in some ways the best of its type in the game, since in addition to just being a cheap HP sponge it also has a ranged attack which is actually really deadly if you spawn it in the backline and it gets good shots off on something. More of an MP-focused strategy I think since in SP you'd rather just have the HP tank in front of your even better shooters, but it has its place especially in situations where your units can't get a good shot off (e.g. in city alleyways).

Even Cylostra only makes the ethereal units cheaper. Not stronger. So while an ethereal themed army is cool theme-wise, it was just not good, not even with the ethereal legendary lord.

She gives +5% physical resist to start with and another +10% to Syreens through a skill. In WH2 where they had base 75% physical resist, that raised them up to 90%, which is a 150% improvement to the amount of physical damage they could take (actually a nuts bonus). Now in WH3 where they have base 55% physical resist and only go up to 70% it's less of a bonus, but still lets them survive 50% more physical damage.

 

[thesheeep]

Haven't tried them in WH3, but in WH2 there were really, really non-viable above normal difficulty. Their stats are barely above Empire Swordsmen taking into account red line bonuses.

Empire Swordmen are viable, though, which makes Stormvermin viable as well, and Stormvermin definitely beat their lower tier alternatives at their job.
You could argue Stormvermin are (or were?) overpriced, sure, but that's not really the point here.

you don't need to shoot through your own units if you are using good formations and positioning

Not in my experience. Checkerboard barely works anymore in WH3, AI does seem to find the holes much more often now, disengaging gladly to get behind the lines.
Sure, if you get lucky and have some kind of hill to work with, that's awesome, but by far not all maps offer that.

I honestly think gunfire units should get ass stools.
We already have ass ladders, so why not give gunfire units the ability to elevate themselves at the cost of time and reduced defense?
Or give frontline units the command to just duck at the cost of melee stats.
One can dream, right?...

especially in situations where your units can't get a good shot off (e.g. in city alleyways).

I tried a walled city defense with VCoast once in WH3.
You know, one of those cities with an extra few open spaces and extra high buildings... Never again.
It's just fucking pointless. Your units can't shoot 80% of the time, meanwhile enemy archers just pelt your stuff over the rooftops with suspicious accuracy

Imagine if you could put units inside of buildings like in DoW... Just another dream, though...

Now in WH3 where they have base 55% physical resist and only go up to 70% it's less of a bonus, but still lets them survive 50% more physical damage.

I don't get your math here. 55-70 is not a 50% increase.
And afaik, physical resist and ward save do not have some weird calculation behind them like eg armor does. But I might be wrong here.

 

[Average Manatee]

Not in my experience. Checkerboard barely works anymore in WH3, AI does seem to find the holes much more often now, disengaging gladly to get behind the lines.

You need to use more advanced formations and tactics.

On the right side, I make the formation go from wide to very deep right before the engagement, though you can do it afterwards. Result is that the gunners can shoot ~2/3rds of the enemy unit easily (and with fire at will they have multiple enemy units to shoot at as well).

On the far left, after the enemy hit head-on I right clicked and dragged to pull the unit to the left side. Advantage of this is you can shoot at the whole enemy swordsman unit and it also doesn't get its shield bonus because it's facing the wrong way. My swordsman also isn't taking extra melee damage from being enveloped, because its actually just a normal head on fight, just spun 90 degrees. Though you do take a bit of extra damage re-positioning during a melee.

Another fun related tactic to get the enemy to lose their shield bonus is, whenever your lord/hero is in melee, just run them through the unit to the other side so the whole enemy unit turns around. Basically instantly gives your ranged units a +50% damage buff or better.

I don't get your math here. 55-70 is not a 50% increase.

55% phys resist means you take 45% phys damage. If you have 10,000 health and take 45% damage you can take (10,000 / 0.45) = 22,222 damage before dying.
70% phys resist means you take 30% phys damage. If you have 10,000 health and take 30% damage you can take (10,000 / 0.30) = 33,333 damage before dying.

This is a 50% increase

Empire Swordmen are viable, though, which makes Stormvermin viable as well, and Stormvermin definitely beat their lower tier alternatives at their job.
You could argue Stormvermin are (or were?) overpriced, sure, but that's not really the point here.

Swordsmen are viable... for an early game unit. Empire melee is below average to begin with and swordsmen aren't nearly their best unit and empire has way better melee support magic. Stormvermin ticks all of those boxes in the wrong way. Plus clanrat spears are way, way cheaper and can hold the line nearly as well. If you want to see an awful joke, compare Empire Halberdiers to Stormvermin Halberdiers (esp with red line buffs).

 

[thesheeep]

You need to use more advanced formations and tactics.

I don't understand how that still works for you.
For me, that works for a while maybe (as it used to) and then the unit quite often moves on to the back line. Not all of them, but enough to disrupt the backline. Especially cavalry/monstrous/single unit ones.

Which I do like, in a way, as that's the same thing I would do if I was the enemy.
But, yeah... I don't know how we have so different behavior.

55% phys resist means you take 45% phys damage. If you have 10,000 health and take 45% damage you can take (10,000 / 0.45) = 22,222 damage before dying.
70% phys resist means you take 30% phys damage. If you have 10,000 health and take 55% damage you can take (10,000 / 0.30) = 33,333 damage before dying.

This is a 50% increase

That does make sense, thanks.

 

[Average Manatee]

I don't understand how that still works for you.
For me, that works for a while maybe (as it used to) and then the unit quite often moves on to the back line. Not all of them, but enough to disrupt the backline. Especially cavalry/monstrous/single unit ones.

Which I do like, in a way, as that's the same thing I would do if I was the enemy.
But, yeah... I don't know how we have so different behavior.

The units on the right definitely have no way they can get through the spaces. There's not enough room for a full unit and they'd get stuck. A player could force their way through by making their unit a column like mine is, or spam click to force the way through, but AI won't do that.

The left is a bit trickier and more circumstantial but if you do it after the engagement happens the AI's melee tend to be pretty sticky. You can also do it so you only open partially and have your units fire diagonally, which the AI is less smart about running through than clear vertical gaps, here's an example on both sides.

What the engagement looks like its going to be.

What I actually do. My lord there since its kind of a big gap to zone out the enemy lord or unit deciding to break through. But generally once they are engaged they stay engaged unless you either pull too far back or another un-engaged enemy melee runs in.

As for Cavalry and Monsters, they do cause trouble. Have to make sure you have something anti-large and make your formation deep (square formation rather than wide, and move to envelop the monster once its engaged). Thankfully they are huge so your ranged can focus fire them down. 4 handgunners can eliminate a monster in melee, not moving much and at mid range, in seconds.

 

[Lacrymas]

I find it telling that the only lively discussion this game receives is when a new patch drops, otherwise it's cricket noises.

 

[thesheeep]

I find it telling that the only lively discussion this game receives is when a new patch drops, otherwise it's cricket noises.

And it's not like the patches are particularly interesting.

Has anyone tried Radious? I've heard rather mixed things about it...

 

[BrotherFrank]

Dunmo about radious but i wouldn’t even consider playing total warhammer without SFO.
Anything’s gotta be better then vanilla though.

Reading what some of you are saying makes me shake my head at how silly CA balance is, basically dilluting what should make units special and fantastical so everything is bland and lame but fair in mp? Fuck that.

Depth guard should be fucking terrifying, in SFO they are always the highest priority target for me.
Ghosts should be ghostly and almost immune to physical damage, not "can take 50% more damage", having a unit of ghosts flank you and engage your archers should be a mad scramble to dispatch a unit that does magic damage rather then "lol imma send a unit of halberdiers or spears or something idk".

Total warhammer is at its best when it leans on the fantasy elements that differentiate it from historical, if you want to play a game with a million different units who only have slight advantages over one or another then wtf is the point?

As an aside I remembered one of my first experiences trying total war mp and it just highlights the sort of subhuman thrash that infest it.

story time!

Context was Medieval Total war 2.

Me and my friend decided to try mp for the first time, we were both new to online gaming for the most part and still wild eyed and naive.
We say we are new players in lobby because well, again, we were wild eyed and naive, new to the internet as well.

A bunch of players immediately act super friendly towards us and propose to teach us in some "friendly games". These gents were the absolute pinnacle of good manners and friendliness. So my friend and I agree to a 2v2, and we picked balanced armies: infantry, archers, cavalry and some siege weapons.

The game starts, we see both enemy players have taken nothing but cavalry. Ok no problem, we will just form up our spear walls and...wait what?
The other team, up untill now so polite and friendly proceed to absolutely rage at us, calling us all sorts of names and being your average league of legends player pretty much.

Apparently unbeknown to us, taking even one unit of arty was considered heresy in the M:TW2 mp community. After unleashing entire paragraphs of vitriol at us, they rage quit.

Back in the lobby, they proceed to shit talk about us to the other mp "pros" in the lobby, who also agreed and proceeded to join in the bandwagon of insults.

The entire room previously sooo friendly and welcoming turn into a hive of toxic shit heads all screeching at us for taking artillery (and apparently taking all cav armies was a-ok though, because thats what the "pros" did), even though we did say we were new and no one bothered to tell us about mp etiquette when they were inviting us to play games with them (which i now know is actually because they wanted to stomp some noobs and pad out their stats). Needless to say, neither me nor my friend persisted with medieval mp.

Fuck the total war mp community, it's one thing for them to shit up mp, it's another when their bs affects sp too.

 

[Average Manatee]

Ghosts should be ghostly and almost immune to physical damage, not "can take 50% more damage", having a unit of ghosts flank you and engage your archers should be a mad scramble to dispatch a unit that does magic damage rather then "lol imma send a unit of halberdiers or spears or something idk".

Ghosts have 55% physical resistance so they can take approximately 100% more damage. We were talking about the Cylostra whose unique lord ability buffs that further to 200%.

It used to be 75% resistance (meaning they could take 400% more damage), but that was changed in WH3 because there are now whole factions with magic attacks (demons), which would make ghosts incredibly hard countered. So they toned down the resistance and buffed their base HP. Not saying I'm a fan of the change but that's their reasoning.

Depth guard should be fucking terrifying, in SFO they are always the highest priority target for me.

I feel like basically every faction has a "this unit should be fucking terrifying in melee" unit though. If everyone is special then no one is.

 

[BrotherFrank]

You don't get me. I ain't talking ghosts can take 200-300% or even 500-600% more damage. I'm taking actually being outright quasi immune to physical damage to the point that without the right tools, a ghost unit can practically solo an entire army if played right.

I feel like basically every faction has a "this unit should be fucking terrifying in melee" unit though. If everyone is special then no one is.

And I'll firmly disagree if you say they are all the same, speaking strictly from SFO.

Brettonian Grail Knights are an entirely different kettle of fish from Deph Guard who are an entire different kettle of fish from Wild hunt stag riders who in turn are different from Altdorf foot reiksguard and treat them all the same way at your peril.
If you want I can list every "fucking terrifying" (i didn't precise melee, but even if we stuck to melee only elites there is still variety and key differences between them) for each race of the top of my head and I'm very confident it will support my argument because that's the beauty of SFO, they add all sorts of conditional buffs/some weaknesses and abilities so they ain't just similar stat blocks you can lump together and go "yeah they are all the same just with different looks". They achieve being "fucking terrifying" in different ways that makes fights interesting and flavorful (at least for my tastes, i'm aware some people might hate my ghost example for instance).

 

[Average Manatee]

You don't get me. I ain't talking ghosts can take 200-300% or even 500-600% more damage. I'm taking actually being immune to physical damage to the point without the right tools, a ghost unit can practically solo an entire army if played right.

The cap on damage reduction is 90%, which was reachable before with buffs. That's not nearly enough to solo armies though. Not sure if mods are able to uncap damage reduction.

Brettonian Grail Knights are an entirely different kettle of fish from Deph Guard who are an entire different kettle of fish from Wild hunt stag riders who in turn are different from Altdorf foot reiksguard and treat them all the same way at your peril.

Obviously cavalry are different from melee units. Tell me how how all of the heavily armored, shielded, bonus vs. infantry Tier 3 melee units are different though. They mostly aren't, the differences primarily come down to faction-specific advantages (like Khorne dominating everyone in melee, or undead having easy healing). A few distinguish themselves by having AP damage vs. non AP damage, or flaming/magical attacks, but otherwise its a very similar lineup of units that fulfill the same role.

 

[BrotherFrank]

Obviously cavalry are different from melee units. Tell me how how all of the heavily armored, shielded, bonus vs. infantry Tier 3 melee units are different though. They mostly aren't, the differences primarily come down to faction-specific advantages (like Khorne dominating everyone in melee, or undead having easy healing). A few distinguish themselves by having AP damage vs. non AP damage, or flaming/magical attacks, but otherwise its a very similar lineup of units that fulfill the same role.

Ok so the conditions are heavily armored shielded melee infantry unit top tier elites (tier 3 is a vanilla term that doesn't really fully apply to sfo mod)? Gotcha but no more moving goalposts after this, I might be writing a big tldr here but I don't want to be engaged in a continual back and forth where I'm spending 30mins+ per post.
And for the sake of a good faith discussion am going to completely ignore the criteria of bonus vs. infantry, not least because I can't remember off the top of my head which ones have them and which don't.

tldr summary of top tier non lord specific melee armored shielded infantry units

Empire: Foot reiksguard- Defensive heavy infantry who encourage and galvinize friendly units around them, they are anchors to firm up your lines but stat wise ain't actually that offensively amazing nor do they have do high dps and lose to just about every other elite unit 1v1, but that's not their role, they are a force multiplier first and foremost rather then a unit expected to smash through enemy lines and punch holes.

Undead: Blood knights on foot- Superhuman vampire infantry with the stats to show for it. Been a while since I played VC though and the enemy ai never seems to field them so can't truthfully recall their quirks and special abilities out of the gate other then remembering they were truly god tier and very fast for heavy armored foot whilst being good versus everything. Blood knights in general in SFO are a tier above "fucking terrifying" really. Oh and they regenerate hp in combat because they are vampires... Seriously god tier unit.

Greenskins: Black Orcs-Heavily armored offensive infantry with average morale, provide offensive bonuses to other greenskins if I recall. Their average unit speed hampers their role though so they are certainly be dealt with easily whilst on the move with ranged firepower or magic. If they do get in combat though they will do a lot of area effect damage so will absolutely melt chaff and heavy armored infantry alike although high melee defense infantry (wood elf war dancers immediately come to mind) do well against them.
Don't recall how scrap customisation affects them or if it changes their useage in any way.

Wood elves: have 0 units that fulfil your criteria, their top tier melee units are either cavalry or unshielded.

High elves: No units qualify, phoenix guard and swordmasters both unshielded although swordmasters do have a defensive ability that mimics shielding (they are so skilled with their swords that they are able to cut through arrows as if they were shielded).

Vampire coast: No units qualify for this contest, both types of depth guard are unshielded.

Brettonians: No units qualify for this contest, foot squires are decent but not quite top tier elite material like the rest here are.

Khemri: Have no units which qualify for this contest.

Dwarves: Ironbreakers- Most similar to altdorf foot reiksguard in being a defensive oriented unit that buffs nearby troops and also lords/heroes. Key difference other then being much sturdier and tankier yet slower is they also throw satchel charges which lets them kill chaff en masse as they hold the line.

Skaven: No units qualify for this contest.

Lizardmen: Temple guards- Defensive oriented lizardmen who distinguish themselves from other defensive units in that rather then buffing other units, they buff themselves (getting slower and getting a charge debuff if an enemy is near in exchange for greater melee defence and physical resistance).
Two notable traits is that despite being shielded they also wield halberds thus making them anti large and with expert charge defense, they also get stronger a 3 stage buff that means they get stronger and more active as the combat continues.

Dark elves: Do not qualify, both of their top tier melee infantry units are unshielded.

Chaos: I'm going to beg for clemency here, ain't played them in ages and they have various flavors of truly top tier infantry, some of which are only unlockable by following certain paths or owning some key settlements, and their bonuses and possibility abilities affected by tech is also different depending on whether you go undivided or follow a particularly chaos god. For my own sanity's sake I'm going to pull the "trust me bro, they ain't the exact same" card just this once.

So out of 13 factions here, only 6 have units that fulfill your criteria (well 7, but for my sanity's sake i'm ignoring chaos so count that as a loss in your favor).
Of the 6, the empire and dwarf units are the most similar in that they are both defensive line holding buffers with very samey buffs (although it is much more valuable for the empire since dwarves already tend to be high morale and have other units who give support buffs) but treat them the same and those satchel charges will make you rue it.

I rest my case and drop the mic, I do not think the Incredibles syndrome quote applies here and argue these are not interchangeable units and that they have more flavor and distinction then just their damage types. And this is the same regardless if we were to do expand the criteria to "only top tier melee cavalry" or "top tier melee halberdier infantry".
If you still ain't convinced, that's fine, we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[thesheeep]

I'm taking actually being outright quasi immune to physical damage to the point that without the right tools, a ghost unit can practically solo an entire army if played right.

Honestly, that sounds terrible.
Imagine going up against that without ways to fight it - and no, you cannot always know what you'll be up against.
Getting wiped by a single unit of ghosts has to be some of the worst feelings
And I'm not sure if every faction even has access to magic before end game...

Just making them scarier and increasing the resistance sounds more than fine to me. No need to go over the top.

 

[BrotherFrank]

Honestly, that sounds terrible.

That’s fine, I fully understand not everyone will share my tastes.
And getting my themed stacks utterly annihilated by something that hard counters it isn’t an uncommon occurence for me so i’m well used to that worst feeling tbh.