Preview Tyranny GDC 2016 Previews

[Kem0sabe]

Feargus will NEVER, under any circumstance EVER allow Obsidian to fund and develop a turn based game, they just don't sell.

Last time I checked, Divinity:Original Sin or Firaxis' XCOM were doing pretty fine sales-wise (proving TB combat systems don't necessarily scare away potential customers), but what do I know...

That's misleading. These are two of the most successful (western) turn-based games in recent years, and they're still very far from the numbers real-time games can do.
Other things to consider:

• D:OS has a 6% completion rate, which is bad for business.
• XCOM is not an RPG. TB RPGs drag on for much longer, while in a game like XCOM the TB combat is pretty much the game.
• Paradox is very successful with their RTwP strategy games.
• ARPGs outsell TB RPGs by tens of millions, and RTwP is the closest thing.
• Codex is very vocal about turn-based, but the higher positions are pretty much dominated by Action/RTwP RPGs.
• Turn-based combat can make or break a game. People are much more tolerant towards shitty combat mechanics in action/real-time based games, mostly because they don't take as long.

There will always be a market for both, but this is a considerable investment, and Paradox is obviously not interested in selling 500k copies or so.

I doubt the imposition of RtwP combat came from Paradox, and didnt D:OS sell more units than PoE? It even went on to successfully launch a sequel on Ks that was promptly funded.

In terms of sales, their two biggest franchises, EUIV - 900k sales, and CK2 - 1.2m sales are niche products and both managed to far outsell the massively promoted and nostalgia laden PoE.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Also, Paradox grand strategy games actually play to the strengths of RTwP, much unlike fantasy RPGs built to mimic RTS games while removing most of what makes said games fun.

 

[Fairfax]

Feargus will NEVER, under any circumstance EVER allow Obsidian to fund and develop a turn based game, they just don't sell.

Last time I checked, Divinity:Original Sin or Firaxis' XCOM were doing pretty fine sales-wise (proving TB combat systems don't necessarily scare away potential customers), but what do I know...

That's misleading. These are two of the most successful (western) turn-based games in recent years, and they're still very far from the numbers real-time games can do.
Other things to consider:

• D:OS has a 6% completion rate, which is bad for business.
• XCOM is not an RPG. TB RPGs drag on for much longer, while in a game like XCOM the TB combat is pretty much the game.
• Paradox is very successful with their RTwP strategy games.
• ARPGs outsell TB RPGs by tens of millions, and RTwP is the closest thing.
• Codex is very vocal about turn-based, but the higher positions are pretty much dominated by Action/RTwP RPGs.
• Turn-based combat can make or break a game. People are much more tolerant towards shitty combat mechanics in action/real-time based games, mostly because they don't take as long.

There will always be a market for both, but this is a considerable investment, and Paradox is obviously not interested in selling 500k copies or so.

I doubt the imposition of RtwP combat came from Paradox, and didnt D:OS sell more units than PoE? It even went on to successfully launch a sequel on Ks that was promptly funded.

In terms of sales, their two biggest franchises, EUIV - 900k sales, and CK2 - 1.2m sales are niche products and both managed to far outsell the massively promoted and nostalgia laden PoE.

We don't know who came up with it, but I bet Obsidian pitched it with RTwP in the first place. Having the PoE combat in place already saves time, and time = money.
D:OS sold more, yes, but it didn't keep players hooked, hence the 6% completion rate. You can see the result in D:OS2's KS campaign. As for PoE, I'd argue it didn't fail because of its combat, but that's a whole different debate.

EU4 and CK2 have a great ROI for Paradox, and some of the highest playtime averages and medians on Steam. They keep players coming back for more, so they make a lot of money from DLC.
You can't get as much playtime from an RPG, which is much more limited in nature. Still, the reactivity and short duration should keep players coming, and that's good for Paradox's DLC scheme. Expect pre-order bonuses, deluxe editions and short pieces of DLC in the first couple of months, and that's just Paradox warming up.

One major thing EU4 and CK2 had going for them is mod support. The ASOIAF mod drove hundreds of thousands of CK2 copies, make no mistake. However, it's very unlikely that Tyranny will be mod-friendly, considering PoE is anything but. Let alone have mod tools pf any sort.
Hope they prove me wrong, though. Could be a game changer.

 

[Quatlo]

I'd take 20 hour long gameplay anytime over boring grind through a dungeon with copypasted mobs to get some fucking Fine Sword and 12 gold pieces. Oh! And "Point of interest" describing some stupid detail in one of the rooms that is of no consequence altogether and is there to fill the blank space.

 

[Grotesque]

I wonder what was the game completion rate of games in the 90's...

 

[DeepOcean]

Feargus will NEVER, under any circumstance EVER allow Obsidian to fund and develop a turn based game, they just don't sell.

Last time I checked, Divinity:Original Sin or Firaxis' XCOM were doing pretty fine sales-wise (proving TB combat systems don't necessarily scare away potential customers), but what do I know...

Sssshhhh, Feargus could finaly figure out we are on 2016.

 

[DeepOcean]

D:OS sold more, yes, but it didn't keep players hooked, hence the 6% completion rate. You can see the result in D:OS2's KS campaign. As for PoE, I'd argue it didn't fail because of its combat, but that's a whole different debate.

I didn't finish PoE, Wasteland 2 and Div:OS, watched the endings at youtube as it would be less boring that way and I like RPGs imagine the casuals... a 6% completion rate is pretty standard nowdays, very, very few games on Steam have completion rates above a single digit, especially RPGs that pad the fuck out of the game with "content" like the three are guilty of.

 

[Mustawd]

Didn't PoE have a story mode though? Bet that helps completion a lot.

I never understand people's argument that you can't use D:OS, X-COM 2, or Shadowrun games as examples of TB success because...they're too successful.

Let's face it, the criticisms of TB for modern audiences is overblown. Yes, you have to streamline it and dress it up (aka XCOM cut scenes), but the potential for good combat AND commercial success is definitely there.


But I look forward to the same excuses when D:OS2 does well.

 

[Fairfax]

D:OS sold more, yes, but it didn't keep players hooked, hence the 6% completion rate. You can see the result in D:OS2's KS campaign. As for PoE, I'd argue it didn't fail because of its combat, but that's a whole different debate.

I didn't finish PoE, Wasteland 2 and Div:OS, watched the endings at youtube as it would be less boring that way and I like RPGs imagine the casuals... a 6% completion rate is pretty standard nowdays, very, very few games on Steam have completion rates above a single digit, especially RPGs that pad the fuck out of the game with "content" like the three are guilty of.

Not really. It might be standard if you include every RPG released out there, but even long ones like Fallout, TES and The Witcher have more than 20% each. Skyrim has 27.6% out of almost 10 million players, for instance.

Codex is very vocal about turn-based, but the higher positions are pretty much dominated by Action/RTwP RPGs.

Small correction: I wanted to say higher positions in the RPGCodex top 70.
The top 10 has:

• 2 RTwP
• 5 Action-based
• 3 Turn-based

And Arcanum, which mixes both. That's 6x4.

The top 30 has (including the optional systems):

• 12 Action-based
• 9 RTwP
• 12 Turn-based

Same percentage: 40% have turn-based combat systems. Pretty low for a community that seems so vocal about it.
I don't doubt the majority prefers TB combat, but it's clear that not having it is far from deal-breaker.

 

[Telengard]

1 million discount copies is successful For An Indie. For Obsidian, with probably back up to a 1 million a month burn rate, that's a snack. And for the 1st tier companies (not even talking AAA yet), it's beneath notice. What they're looking at is not number of units sold, but how much was earned. If somebody sold 100,000 units, but every unit sold for $1000, company admin would be doing cartwheels.

The non-indie companies will look at what you're saying, and answer, 'yeah, I could easily do another 3 million (indie darling Bastion beats all a you all's) if I sold my game for $20 each, too, then put it on bundle for $1, but I'd really rather earn real money.' Now, the day a turn-based game finally beats the earnings of 20-year-old BG2, now we're talking.

What's more, do you guys all want a turn-based game with cartoon graphics, 2 AP combat, all weapons being equal, and no risk/reward? Cause that sure will sell enough to garner interest from the general crowd. Or do you want an RPG? Not only that, as you should already be well aware, since you all mention it all the time, copying someone else does not usually do well. Skyrim knock-offs do not sell like Skyrim. The first one out of the gate gets the notice. Latecomers fight over the remains.

 

[Urthor]

1 million discount copies with a 30% attachment rate for 30 dollars worth of DLC is, however, extremely succesful for a studio of Obsidian's size. Not to mention they've made an investment in technology whikch they are clearly reaping benefits from, as opposed to 1 ofs like Stick of Truth or Alpha Protocol.

The residuals from the DLC are huge.

 

[Anac'raxus]

Also, Paradox grand strategy games actually play to the strengths of RTwP, much unlike fantasy RPGs built to mimic RTS games while removing most of what makes said games fun.

Paradox grand strategy games don't even try to simulate continuous "real time", their game states change in very obvious discrete increments. They play a lot like the strategy layers of the first two Master of Orion games (which I suppose are more properly termed "phased"), they just let you quickly auto-skip turns until something is actually happening. Calling them RTwP at all seems pretty dubious (especially when anyone* tries to use that as evidence for what kind of RPGs Paradox would publish, Copper Dreams would seem to be more analogous to the "Paradox style" than any Infinity Engine style game).

*(not you specifically, of course)

 

[MrE]

I like the possibility to get different 'start states' for the world. Hell, any idea like different starting location, different NPCs, different quests, different whatever based on player's choices are very attractive in my opinion. But I'd rather play a game longer than 20 h, so ideally I'd like them to combine both.

Mediterranean - they only indication we had was the screen with buildings, there's a character with a crested helmet, though it seems that it looks a bit different than any historical examples.

The game uses the Pillars of Eternity engine and is RTwP. Combat seems more dynamic than Pilllars, with stuff like combo moves that can make companions shoot up in the air and fire arrows at the enemy.

Fuck.

I care a lot about combat and these abilities are just stupid gamey console bullshit. Bring on actual tactical actions like jump, climb, crawl, take cover, kneel, some time management issue for potions and consumable and all that shit (and their actual mechanics that can be put to use in game of course), not... gimmick abilities that shoot 3 magic watchamadig every 10 seconds...

The screen with the buildings seems to have made some people think about tactical abilities but now I'm quite sure we won't see them.

Which brings to mind the question, which will come first, Torment or Tyranny?

My bet is on Torment.

If I may ask, where do you live exactly? "Mediterranean" is a vague notion, because , you know, both Egypt and Greece could be described by this term. I personally have Greece before my eyes when I hear the term, but as I said, it's not the whole story.

The screen did not leave "mediterranean" impression on me, though. I think "american" is more fitting (it probably describes anything an USA developer will ever develop btw. )

Yeah, no way it looks like Mediterranean. More like mud. If it was sand then, yes, we'd have to accept it, but dark soil like in the screen wouldn't normally exist - it would need to be held in place with grass and shrubs (scorched with sun most likely, as it is in the region).

:S

EDIT: maybe if there was an overall CAP for each character? Or if the higher you raised one particular skill, the lower another one would get? Or raising a certain skill would make some synergistic skills easier to also raise up while others harder? I don't know.

That might feel a bit artificial I think. Maybe if they limited 'progress by use' to quest-related activities, which are of course limited?

No doubt it won't be great but I don't see how it being on the same engine affects that. It's not going to use the same mechanics.

Is it? Sure, they say 'classless' but hopefully that's not the only difference from PoE. Otherwise, I don't know, their design choices lack class...

Oh, and one more upside - no KS mean no backers' NPCs.

 

[Flou]

I doubt the imposition of RtwP combat came from Paradox, and didnt D:OS sell more units than PoE? It even went on to successfully launch a sequel on Ks that was promptly funded.

In terms of sales, their two biggest franchises, EUIV - 900k sales, and CK2 - 1.2m sales are niche products and both managed to far outsell the massively promoted and nostalgia laden PoE.

Why the fuck would you even compare the sales of EUIV and CK2 to PoE's? Those games have been out for 3-4 years while PoE has been out for one year. CK2 and EUIV are on massive sales everytime Steam has sales and I would imagine quite a lot of those 900k-1.2m sales are from those Steam sales where the game is being sold for 10 bucks or less.

While the market for both games might be niche, both IPs (and Paradox in general) have built a quite good following and a fanbase, especially in Europe. Paradox competes only against itself, since no one else caters to that market, where as there are multiple companies making cRPGS and trying to get a piece of that niche market.

Also I must have missed the massive ad campaign for PoE.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

D:OS sold more, yes, but it didn't keep players hooked, hence the 6% completion rate. You can see the result in D:OS2's KS campaign.

Not sure what you mean by that as DOS2's campaign raised $2m, far more than the first campaign? I think you're reading a bit much into the completion stats here. DOS was a long game, but I know a number of people who enjoyed it a lot, but never made it past the latter stages where it became a bit of a slog (as seems to happen with a lot of games these days). They still felt they got their money's worth and contributed to the DOS2 KS. I know you're making a general point here about RTWP and TB, but I think DOS did a lot to popularise TB amongst a new batch of gamers.

 

[Infinitron]

I kind of like how RTwP makes Obsidian's games singularly immune to consolization. Expect "Josh Sawyer's Pillars of Eternity: Tactics" to be the franchise's console debut.

 

[Fairfax]

D:OS sold more, yes, but it didn't keep players hooked, hence the 6% completion rate. You can see the result in D:OS2's KS campaign.

Not sure what you mean by that as DOS2's campaign raised $2m, far more than the first campaign? I think you're reading a bit much into the completion stats here. DOS was a long game, but I know a number of people who enjoyed it a lot, but never made it past the latter stages where it became a bit of a slog (as seems to happen with a lot of games these days). They still felt they got their money's worth and contributed to the DOS2 KS. I know you're making a general point here about RTWP and TB, but I think DOS did a lot to popularise TB amongst a new batch of gamers.

I know people who did the same. This is just an impression I have, nothing based on extensive data. It was the first (and only one so far) CRPG from the "Kickstarter Renaissance" to get its sequel funded through Kickstarter. Once we have more examples, it'll be easier to draw comparisons.
Still, I just thought 20k backers was very low, considering the game's sales.

 

[vivec]

Shitty RTwP combat and Skyrim-like skill progression??

Hmm we don't know if it's like Skyrim. Could be more like Colony Shyps where it's not as degenerate.

At least it isn't talent trees.

I doubt the people who made PoE have enough talent to pull that off. Every time I play that game, it makes me cringe thinking how good it could really be with those graphics. The writing and the game design just was terrible to the core.

 

[Invictus]

Cautiously interested in this game... Although some of my favorite game from the New Incline are like Divinity Original Sin and Dead State were barely in my radar till they were released and I got to play them
So far the biggest deal breaker for me is rtwp, it could have been much better to differentiate itself from Pillars by having that combat but oh well time will tell

 

[Tacgnol]

I'm happy if those 20 hours are filled with a reactive world and good C&C.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Why the fuck would you even compare the sales of EUIV and CK2 to PoE's? Those games have been out for 3-4 years while PoE has been out for one year. CK2 and EUIV are on massive sales everytime Steam has sales and I would imagine quite a lot of those 900k-1.2m sales are from those Steam sales where the game is being sold for 10 bucks or less.

While the market for both games might be niche, both IPs (and Paradox in general) have built a quite good following and a fanbase, especially in Europe. Paradox competes only against itself, since no one else caters to that market, where as there are multiple companies making cRPGS and trying to get a piece of that niche market.

Also I must have missed the massive ad campaign for PoE.

I'm comparing euiv and ck2 because they are paradox titles for a very niche market, that did very well, proving that paradox will bet on properties independent of their lass market appeal, hence I doubted the imposition of rtwp came from paradox, as they probably didn't view tb combat as a significant risk.

PoE had a much more intense pr campaign than DOS, riding the nostalgia wagon for the ie games all the way. While larian made less money from their KS, had smaller pr and word of mouth effort, came off a comercial failure that was dragon commander... And even then managed to massively outsell PoE, and fund a sequel in KS... All the while sporting TB combat.

 

[AwesomeButton]

AI

If this game ships with any AI at all, it will be thanks to PoE. Everyone can make their own conclusions from that.

I'm happy if those 20 hours are filled with a reactive world and good C&C.

So am I, but by the looks of everything, combat will still be a major part of Tyranny. Hopefully the cooldowns will raise the quality of combat to be above PoE's expansions level

 

[Excidium II]

This game exists at all because of PoE. What do you mean, PoE companion AI sucks?

 

[Scroo]

Haven't read the thread so lol

I dunno, the C&C stuff sounds neat if they manage to do it correctly. We cannot expect AoD levels of C&C but maybe at least some replayability. The combo system without knowing more about it sounds horrible, especially in a RtwP setting. The rest... sounds balanced. I'm not hyped yet, not at all, but we'll see where it goes.

 

[Doktor Best]

Well Divinity Original Sin had "combos" in some sense, and everybody loved it. Its really about how they implent it, and its way too early to judge it based on what we know (nothing)