Development Info Underrail 2: Infusion Dev Log #9: New Combat System

[Diggfinger]

You men are deluded. This looks and sounds phenomenal. The importance of initiative is absolutely the biggest issue with Underrail's combat, and this should take care of that very elegantly. I'm curious if this change of system will lead to a revisiting of cooldowns - seems like there could be potential for more creative action time-related limitations with this system, which would be cool.

In any case, this is elegant because contrary to what seems to be the prevailing sentiment ITT, it doesn't require a complete redesign of the systems. I'm struggling to think of any of the old abilities or feats that can't be converted very straightforwardly. All the different playstyles that the first game supported should still work, and the glorious Underrail experience of everyone chucking a ton of overpowered shit at each other should still be possible.


All this is what I WOULD be saying, if I didn't remember what Styg did to Quick Tinkering. No purchase. I do not forget, I do not forgive.

Glad to see Styg and Mac_Orion back in business.

Really excited to hear and see more of this new title!

 

[ciox]

FYI like the dev log says, during combat some actions can happen simultaneously with enemy actions, while some actions can "block" the passing of time until they're completed.
You can see a blocking action in the video, enemies are not allowed to interrupt the player character while he's healing, but they all freak out immediately after: https://youtu.be/HmPsCNMuUg8?t=1271
Probably most actions that are supposed to help you survive or take less damage are gonna be blocking actions, so that there's a chance they actually do anything.

 

[Infinitron]

FYI like the dev log says, during combat some actions can happen simultaneously with enemy actions, while some actions can "block" the passing of time until they're completed.
You can see a blocking action in the video, enemies are not allowed to interrupt the player character while he's healing, but they all freak out immediately after: https://youtu.be/HmPsCNMuUg8?t=1271
Probably most actions that are supposed to help you survive or take less damage are gonna be blocking actions, so that there's a chance they actually do anything.

I don't think any enemy action can be simultaneous with the player, although their actions can be simultaneous with each other.

 

[ciox]

FYI like the dev log says, during combat some actions can happen simultaneously with enemy actions, while some actions can "block" the passing of time until they're completed.
You can see a blocking action in the video, enemies are not allowed to interrupt the player character while he's healing, but they all freak out immediately after: https://youtu.be/HmPsCNMuUg8?t=1271
Probably most actions that are supposed to help you survive or take less damage are gonna be blocking actions, so that there's a chance they actually do anything.

I don't think any enemy action can be simultaneous with the player, although their actions can be simultaneous with each other.

Did you see what happens after the healing part? The player is being attacked during the burst's channeling time, and while shooting. Then he literally dies mid-burst and only one bullet comes out instead of three.

 

[shihonage]

The question is not whether this combat will effectively work; the question is whether the combat model is simple and consistent enough to be understood by the player so they can plan around it.

 

[Rarre]

Loved underrail and expedition but not finished them...
The video looks great but I think the new combat puts the multiplayer possibility as an absolute nono, many people will disagree but I enjoyed a lot games like BG2 multiplayer mode ...
Would play It anyway when finished... In 8 years?

 

[ArchAngel]

Yep, I’m quite hyped for the new combat mechanics. TB while being generally ok (a lesser evil I’d say) always stroke me as something very abstract and unrealistic i.e. it’s impossible to conceptualize how a TB fight would look like in real time. For example I’m getting out of my cover to throw a grenade standing exposed before three enemies with guns facing me and nobody cares to shoot at me (overwatch aside). Yeah it’s an abstraction and all, but it’s kind of a bit dumb.

I guess this is what Styg thought too, hence this change. Obviously it’s an abstraction too, but more clever and rooted in reality having time as its primary dimension.

It is not hard to conceptualize how TB fight looks, just watch John Wick movies. He has 2x more AP and always win initiative. Sometimes also gets double turns.

 

[ArchAngel]

Styg I see you are not up to how modern games work. Where is the dodge button for U2?

 

[Daedalos]

Man this looks so fucking cool. Can't wait for it!

This is what I envisioned modern day fallout 1-2 would look like, sort of.
Cool stuff, new things are alwayas scary, but I think the combat systems could totally work.

 

[Shaki]

I just really want it to release before I get old and die, and I don't think implementing a whole new combat system will help with that.

 

[ItsChon]

So I went into the Discord and I got some clarification. The way I describe the combat here,

In terms of the combat, I had some questions regarding the new system. Let's take for example a knife wielding character attacking someone using a sledgehammer, and for the sake of simplicity, these two characters are the only two involved in combat. While the AP conversions to units of time will obviously not be identical with what we see in Underrail, is this a correct estimation for how the situation will roughly go?

Sledgehammer character and knife character start combat directly in front of each other. Knife character wins initiative so he moves first. It takes him 0.5 seconds to use his knife, while it takes the sledgehammer character 2 seconds to swing his sledgehammer. It takes both characters 1 second to use a health hypo.

If a turn takes three seconds, would the turn play out with the knife character striking with his knife four times, then the sledgehammer character striking with his sledgehammer, followed by the knife character using a health hypo and then the sledgehammer character using a health hypo?

If we were to add a third character with a spear who takes 1.5 seconds to strike, would he strike after the third characters knife swing, moving before the sledgehammer guy, even if he was last in initiative? Would he then take his second strike after both the knife and sledgehammer characters took their health hypos?

I don't know exactly how the initiative system works or how it will work, but what this demonstrates is that the system is not actually "real time" but instead semi-turnbased, with one action allotted per microturn. "Action points" or "time" are awarded and carry over each turn based on how much AP/Time the player character uses, and the enemy will react on the turn that they finally acquire enough action points to do what they want to do.

This honestly sounds like a really interesting and promising system, and still allows for "alpha strikes", in that if a knife character can deal enough damage and move fast enough, he would be able to kill two sledgehammer characters (2 strikes each) before either of them could swing their hammer, using my original AP/Time measurements.

It's really not too different from Underrail. The system basically just condenses a single Underrail turn into a bunch of smaller ones, with differing amounts of AP per turn based on the specific actions taken. With this in mind, I'm excited to see future information, as I really think this will make Underrail's combat even more tactical and complex, improving upon what is already one of the best cRPG combat systems ever.

 

[Tigranes]

If someone thought the combat is 'real-time' I'm not sure how they had the brain cells to play Underrail in the first place

This is such a fundamental change that the resulting gameplay will feel as different from UR1 as, well, some other game from some other company would, so it's no longer a question of whether X builds or balance issues from UR1 will be 'addressed'. The big paradigm shift does seem to be trying to get rid of UR1's "never ever get hit, control battlefield with an iron grip" philosophy to a more fluid space.

 

[lukaszek]

The big paradigm shift does seem to be trying to get rid of UR1's "never ever get hit, control battlefield with an iron grip" philosophy to a more fluid space.

yeah but it doesnt affect everyone equally. Melee will be turned to sponge while they could break los in ur1. On other hand versatile pistol builds should still be able to shoot from behind the pillar?

 

[Tigranes]

I don't know if we can plonk UR1 builds into this entirely different system and say it'll be stronger or weaker, any more than plonking a knife throwing build in Pathfinder or something. You'd think a huge chunk of all the other systems need to be redesigned instead of just playing with AP cost.

For example, high MP characters could still break LOS and play corners, but maybe not in a way that prevents them from ever getting hit, because of the fragmentation of 'turns'. The introduction of flying enemies may already change the ease with which characters could manipulate ground terrain (fire, etc) to stop advances. Maybe melee now needs more robust blocking options building on what UR1 already has, allowing them to defend themselves in the open more effectively.

To me, if we're going down this route, I would really like to see enemies do a lot more than "go toward PC and attack" with all the simultaneous movement. You swing your Balor sledgehammer and smash a head, but with the AP you've 'given' them, you now see one guy turn around (based on the new situation) and beeline toward the compound-wide alarm, smashing a nearby window to get in, etc., instead of queueing up in a pack by the door like a bunch of dumbasses.

 

[lukaszek]

I don't know if we can plonk UR1 builds into this entirely different system and say it'll be stronger or weaker

why not, nothing better to do while waiting few more years for next batch of info

 

[ItsChon]

My assumption is that melee characters will be able to utilize things like breaking LoS with movement, cybernetics, and tools like a smoke grenade or flash bangs to incapacitate ranged foes and obfuscate vision to deal with with ranged enemies. We are also forgetting about the existence of energy shields, which will become even more important and also make the use of melee weapons something that is actually reasonable, both in terms of actual gameplay mechanics as well as verisimilitude reasons.

 

[ciox]

So I went into the Discord and I got some clarification. The way I describe the combat here,

In terms of the combat, I had some questions regarding the new system. Let's take for example a knife wielding character attacking someone using a sledgehammer, and for the sake of simplicity, these two characters are the only two involved in combat. While the AP conversions to units of time will obviously not be identical with what we see in Underrail, is this a correct estimation for how the situation will roughly go?

Sledgehammer character and knife character start combat directly in front of each other. Knife character wins initiative so he moves first. It takes him 0.5 seconds to use his knife, while it takes the sledgehammer character 2 seconds to swing his sledgehammer. It takes both characters 1 second to use a health hypo.

If a turn takes three seconds, would the turn play out with the knife character striking with his knife four times, then the sledgehammer character striking with his sledgehammer, followed by the knife character using a health hypo and then the sledgehammer character using a health hypo?

If we were to add a third character with a spear who takes 1.5 seconds to strike, would he strike after the third characters knife swing, moving before the sledgehammer guy, even if he was last in initiative? Would he then take his second strike after both the knife and sledgehammer characters took their health hypos?

I don't know exactly how the initiative system works or how it will work, but what this demonstrates is that the system is not actually "real time" but instead semi-turnbased, with one action allotted per microturn. "Action points" or "time" are awarded and carry over each turn based on how much AP/Time the player character uses, and the enemy will react on the turn that they finally acquire enough action points to do what they want to do.

This honestly sounds like a really interesting and promising system, and still allows for "alpha strikes", in that if a knife character can deal enough damage and move fast enough, he would be able to kill two sledgehammer characters (2 strikes each) before either of them could swing their hammer, using my original AP/Time measurements.

It's really not too different from Underrail. The system basically just condenses a single Underrail turn into a bunch of smaller ones, with differing amounts of AP per turn based on the specific actions taken. With this in mind, I'm excited to see future information, as I really think this will make Underrail's combat even more tactical and complex, improving upon what is already one of the best cRPG combat systems ever.

You seem to be neglecting that some Infusion actions are flagged as being allowed to happen at the same time, and some are not.
In fact, actions that completely block the flow of time seem to be the exception, rather than the rule.

Since characters can swing at each other at the same time, there are various questions.
Is the animation time factored into the time calculations and you start your swing earlier with a slow-animating melee weapon, or not? No info on this and it's not clear from the video. If not then it complicates things a lot.
Right now characters also stagger if they are hit while idle, but ignore hits and do not stagger if they are in the middle of an attack. Are things gonna stay like that forever or will the ability to interrupt be added with feats/abilities?

There are also things that make the new combat something different, and not just old Underrail with micro-turns.
Some loose pseudo-realtime things were introduced into Infusion like projectile travel time that runs in parallel with other actions, and not during frozen time.
Machinegun bursts have a channel time, but time does not stop after the channel time is over either. You fire each round one by one in "real time", and can die or get interrupted inbetween rounds at any point.
You will have some interactions like in Starcraft where two units can launch slow-moving projectiles at each other and then they both die, even if one of them fired much earlier. This will probably create some ragequit moments.

 

[ItsChon]

You seem to be neglecting that some Infusion actions are flagged as being allowed to happen at the same time, and some are not.
In fact, actions that completely block the flow of time seem to be the exception, rather than the rule.

As I understand it, it is only enemy actions that happen at the same time as mentioned in the devlog,

"NPCs usually won't block each other. Meaning they will act simultaneously for the most part."

which is what I think he was referring to when saying "determining which actions are simultaneous and which are sequential. The sequential bit will come in when one enemy uses for example a stun attack, and another enemy has opportunist. There needs to be some sort of queue or sequence, as the answer to whether or not opportunist will proc will imply some kind of an order.

There are also things that make the new combat something different, and not just old Underrail with micro-turns.
Some loose pseudo-realtime things were introduced into Infusion like projectile travel time that runs in parallel with other actions, and not during frozen time.

You will have some interactions like in Starcraft where two units can launch slow-moving projectiles at each other and then they both die, even if one of them fired much earlier. This will probably create some ragequit moments.

Where was this introduced? I didn't see it in any of the devlogs? This can happen in niche situations in Underrail when out of combat, but Underrail and Infusion are being designed with completely different systems in mind. In the video as far as I can tell, it is only the actions themselves that grant time, not the animations.

Machinegun bursts have a channel time, but time does not stop after the channel time is over either. You fire each round one by one in "real time", and can die or get interrupted inbetween rounds at any point.

There is a difference between channel time and the actual attacks being fired. We see in the alpha video that the character is attacked by channeling a burst, as the channel takes a certain amount of seconds and those are granted to the enemy. After channeling, the firing of each bullet takes a certain amount of time which is also granted to the enemy. When an enemy attacks while you're firing that doesn't mean they attacked simultaneously even though it may look like that.

I haven't seen anything that suggests the landing of an attack that is commenced takes time which can be granted to the enemy, so I assume it's instantaneous.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I really want to see what happens and what Styg will finalize with this game.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Notice that in Underrail one turn is 5 seconds

Also you have stuff like "character is performing action"

It's like the base was always there

 

[Bruno]

I really want to see what happens and what Styg will finalize with this game.

Me too, it could potentially be fantastic.

Important to focus on exercise and keeping a healthy lifestyle to make sure we live long enough to see it.

 

[Hydro]

P sure we’d be able to find the way to cheese this fancy new system of his