Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Alex]

I don't think Baldur's Gate is balanced, but I think it is a better game than Underrail. I think that by choosing to respect the internal logic up to a point and giving the player a vast amount of interesting options, Baldur's Gate made something much more interesting overall. I don't mean by this to demean Underrail, only to say that it focused on something less important.

About the problem, I was trying to explain it in all these posts I have made in this thread.

What do you mean by "choosing to respect the internal logic up to a point and giving the player a vast amount of interesting options"? Because I had a lot of fun playing an evil sorceress, but frankly, I fail to see any sort of logic in how magic was implemented in that game. Prime example being the number of actions you could take in a round.

Well, though the implementation of combat guts and change some of the core ideas, Baldur's Gate and its sequel more or less follows the basic idea behind AD&D 2nd edition. Rounds still mean the same thing in both games (even though they are implemented differently), magic means the same thing, etc.

Magic in AD&D might seem weird and unthematic. But it is a lot of fun, exactly because it followed a specific logic inside Gary Gygax's head, copying ideas from various pulp fantasy works and adding some stuff of his own. It seems to me that a lot in Underrail is limited because of a premature and excessive concern about balance. For instance, I find it a bit ridiculous how your fire powers will only set people on fire if you have a certain feat. If the feat actually changed how your character acted, maybe your psionics would get stronger from setting stuff on fire, it could be argued that it was a thematic limitation. But it clearly isn't, it is just a balance concern. An example of game that at least used to take thematic concerns first was the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. You would have cold spells shattering potions, fire spells burning scrolls, summoning imps that could raise the dead and what not.

 

[Tigranes]

i am updating my list of cooldown lovers as we speak

beware popamole fags

Goodness me. What are the consequences of being on this list? Does a short, sweaty nerd try to squeeze through my chimney and put a lump of coal in my sock drawer?

The consequences are that roxor will occasionally shitpost against you with his terrifying wit, usually condensed into an earth-shattering half-sentence about how you are shit and you like shit.

I usually detest cooldowns because they encourage an unthinking, spammy rotation. A typical scenario: low-cost Fire Dick has 0 cooldown and low AP cost, AOE Fire Shitbomb has 3 cooldown but is more powerful, while Fire Arse has 2 cooldown and medium AP, somewhere in the middle. The result: every battle you are going Shitbomb Arse Dick Dick Dick Dick Arse Dick Shitbomb Dick Dick Dick Arse Dick Dick Shitbomb Arse Dick....

When you make cooldowns the primary 'cost' of a powerful attack, that means (1) there is no reason not to click on it when it is available; (2) and then you cannot click on it until it is. In other words, you just become a spam monkey, pressing the Shitbomb when it is available. This is most pronounced in games that are real-time, with severe HP bloat, with a ton of unimaginatively designed abilities, where you are kiting the 80000 HP monster spamming the pattern. (Hence the MMO jibe, accurate or not.)

There is the key: the decline of cooldowns has a lot to do with how you design your abilities, and what other costs are intersected with the cooldown as a cost. If all your abilities are good against every enemy in every situation, and there are no real costs other than cooldowns, then you get a shitfest. If your abilities are often highly situational, their results can be positive as well as negative, etc., then cooldowns can be used specifically to prevent spamming abuse, rather than encouraging pattern spamming.

So what happens in Underrail? I think it's pretty ambiguous. On one hand, you've got an ability like Aimed Shot, which seems to fit perfectly into the bad cooldown frame: it's objectively better than a normal shot, there's no reason ever to not use it, and so you rinse it every 3 turns. The cooldown is also pretty short so you can wait for it. At the same time, would it be improved if AS had a mana cost? I'm not sure. Possibly, it allows you to have characters that invest in mana and thus get more mileage out of AS. More interesting would be to have abilities like AS carry a situational cost, e.g. a reduction in movement points to simulate the careful aiming.

Throwables are also not so clean cut, I think. Sure, it's super unrealistic, but the upside is that you can't spam grenades and you have to think more strategically about their use. You could make them rare and expensive, I suppose. Now, to balance it so that you don't start being able to stock up/buy 80 of them after a while, they would have to scale (making an incendiary grenade useless after Junkyard, for example), and they would have to be very rare (maybe 10 Flashbangs in the entire world before Core City). I do think that's better than the current setup, but I also wonder if that doesn't diminish the tactical richness of the combat, because now grenades become a get out of jail card you use rarely, such that in many battles you are now deprived of their use altogether, and when you do use them they need to be even more powerful to be worth it. in other words, we started with the complaint that it's dumb you can't throw grenades more than once every x turns, and then end up with a situation where you're usually not throwing them more than once every 10 battles.

 

[Beastro]

Wondering how I'm gonna round out my sniper later on both feat wise and skills.

Feat wise I dunno what to use for the last 2-4 feats, skills I need to know what I can reduce enough to spread around.

Stat-wise I'm

7 Str
3 Dex (pushed to 7 for quick tink as I level)
7 agi
3 con (pushed to 5 for conditioning as my last feat)
10 per
3 will
7 int

Feat-wise I these so far (almost lv12)

Aim Shot
Snipe
Gun nut
Hit and Run
Opportunist
Sprint
Vile Weaponry

Plan to also get:

Quick Tink
Power Management
Nimble

That leaves 3 feats left over and I'm wondering if one or two into some assault rifle feats for my backup weap might be good or not. One I'm eyeing are:

Critical Power
Commando
Sharpshooter
Concentrated Fire

Also - is Interloper good enough for a sneaky sniper build?
Are Skinner and Clother worth it for Tact vests and boots?

Skills wise it mainly revolves around what is the highest needed for DC/ the best gear, like how high should Stealth, Hacking, Traps, and all crafting be at? ATM I'm planning on only taking Chem to 40 for flashbangs and chemistry to 30 for the -5 per traps while the only ones I'm sure of maxing are Guns, Dodge and Evasion.

 

[Celerity]

>Pages of shit about cooldowns.

For fuck's sake, I thought the Derpest Dungeon thread was derailed...

Guys. You have an actual game here. Talk about that.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Wondering how I'm gonna round out my sniper later on both feat wise and skills.

Feat wise I dunno what to use for the last 2-4 feats, skills I need to know what I can reduce enough to spread around.

Stat-wise I'm

7 Str
3 Dex (pushed to 7 for quick tink as I level)
7 agi
3 con (pushed to 5 for conditioning as my last feat)
10 per
3 will
7 int

Feat-wise I these so far (almost lv12)

Aim Shot
Snipe
Gun nut
Hit and Run
Opportunist
Sprint
Vile Weaponry

Plan to also get:

Quick Tink
Power Management
Nimble

That leaves 3 feats left over and I'm wondering if one or two into some assault rifle feats for my backup weap might be good or not. One I'm eyeing are:

Critical Power
Commando
Sharpshooter
Concentrated Fire

Also - is Interloper good enough for a sneaky sniper build?
Are Skinner and Clother worth it for Tact vests and boots?

Skills wise it mainly revolves around what is the highest needed for DC/ the best gear, like how high should Stealth, Hacking, Traps, and all crafting be at? ATM I'm planning on only taking Chem to 40 for flashbangs and chemistry to 30 for the -5 per traps while the only ones I'm sure of maxing are Guns, Dodge and Evasion.

If you have 7 Str - is 8 str worth it for heavy armor? Agi is pretty low for dodge/evasion.

 

[oneself]

Magic in AD&D might seem weird and unthematic. But it is a lot of fun, exactly because it followed a specific logic inside Gary Gygax's head, copying ideas from various pulp fantasy works and adding some stuff of his own. It seems to me that a lot in Underrail is limited because of a premature and excessive concern about balance. For instance, I find it a bit ridiculous how your fire powers will only set people on fire if you have a certain feat. If the feat actually changed how your character acted, maybe your psionics would get stronger from setting stuff on fire, it could be argued that it was a thematic limitation. But it clearly isn't, it is just a balance concern. An example of game that at least used to take thematic concerns first was the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. You would have cold spells shattering potions, fire spells burning scrolls, summoning imps that could raise the dead and what not.

Again, it just sounds like you prefer a poorly balanced game than a game with cooldowns to balance them.

I think in this game there is already a lot of ways that NPCs could screw you but just don't. I have no idea what we can do if Lurker cut-throat actually attacked the PC with cut-throat as the opener. Luckily, they don't do justice to their name.

Another argument for more balance. If one path is excessively good, it also restrict build diversity as there better it get, the less reason there is to pursue another playstyle. If everything is excessively good, then the difficulty about skill/stat/perk management is void.

For me, having cooldowns to balance the game is the lesser evil.

 

[Bubbles]

Would you say that Underrail is balanced?

 

[Azarkon]

You and all the cooldown lovers who can't imagine gaming without them, you keep asking but you never actually listen.

If you create an outgroup of "cooldown lovers", then lump anyone you don't like in that group, you can blame all the world's problems on that group.

I actually prefer games not to have cooldowns and can think of numerous examples of games which have a terrible implementation. Underrail is not one. It has excellent combat that feels very satisfying.

The only argument you set forth in your post was "cooldowns are just bad design". What I want to hear is how to have Underrail keep it's amazing combat and get rid of cooldowns. There is simply no way to have Aimed Shot without a cooldown unless it's Sawyered into irrelevance, as an example. I think we could all agree that even if cooldowns are terrible, Sawyering is the ultimate design mistake.

If your position is that the entire combat system has to be redesigned from the ground up just to remove cooldowns, then maybe you could find it in your power to understand why some think that's an impractical solution with uncertain benefits - and that some think it resembles a naked appeal to ideological purity.

What the fucking fuck does cooldowns have to do with Sawyerism?

There are a variety of different ways to limit the use of powerful abilities, other than cooldowns:

1. Per rest limits. This is what D&D and Pillars of Eternity use.
2. Per combat limits. This is what Pillars of Eternity and many strategy games use.
3. Energy/mana/resource costs. This is what most roguelike games and many action RPGs use.
4. Detrimental effects. Usually used in combination with the above for very powerful abilities. In practice, rarely designed well.
5. Action costs. This is usually used in strategy games where the player controls many different units at the same time, as it's boring to have your only character stand there for three turns doing an action.

The benefit of cooldown systems over per rest/battle systems is that it enforces diversity in the player's ability usage - the player cannot rely on 1-2 abilities because of cooldowns. The downside is that it simplifies the resource management side of combat a lot, because players no longer get multiple uses of an ability to budget. Games with cooldowns have therefore frequently introduced a mechanic by which you are given several charges of an ability, with each charge having its own cooldown. But at that stage it's difficult to say whether there is still a benefit to the cooldown system in the first place.

 

[oneself]

Would you say that Underrail is balanced?

I'd say it is more balanced than if all cooldowns were suddenly out.

 

[ghostdog]

Enough about the fucking cooldowns already.


So who killed Wyatt ? I really liked the guy, great story to tell... but I just had to kill him . Tough bastard. He isn't involved in anything else story/quest wise, is he?

 

[Alex]

Magic in AD&D might seem weird and unthematic. But it is a lot of fun, exactly because it followed a specific logic inside Gary Gygax's head, copying ideas from various pulp fantasy works and adding some stuff of his own. It seems to me that a lot in Underrail is limited because of a premature and excessive concern about balance. For instance, I find it a bit ridiculous how your fire powers will only set people on fire if you have a certain feat. If the feat actually changed how your character acted, maybe your psionics would get stronger from setting stuff on fire, it could be argued that it was a thematic limitation. But it clearly isn't, it is just a balance concern. An example of game that at least used to take thematic concerns first was the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. You would have cold spells shattering potions, fire spells burning scrolls, summoning imps that could raise the dead and what not.

Again, it just sounds like you prefer a poorly balanced game than a game with cooldowns to balance them.

True, though perhaps it would be more to the point to say I think a game that doesn't worry about balance enough to resort to cooldowns has a chance of being far greater than one that does.

I think in this game there is already a lot of ways that NPCs could screw you but just don't. I have no idea what we can do if Lurker cut-throat actually attacked the PC with cut-throat as the opener. Luckily, they don't do justice to their name.

That could work if the sneaking system was more detailed so that, say, you could carry light sources and keep to open areas to avoid the said lurkers.

Another argument for more balance. If one path is excessively good, it also restrict build diversity as there better it get, the less reason there is to pursue another playstyle. If everything is excessively good, then the difficulty about skill/stat/perk management is void.

I really don't care much about character build optmization. I am usually far more interested in how different and interesting the different "builds" are than if they are balanced.

For me, having cooldowns to balance the game is the lesser evil.

I wouldn't mind that, but I really wished game designers weren't nowadays mostly agreeing with you.

 

[Daedalos]

Sheeeeeeiiit niggas!

I just found a dreadnought I can pilot!

Protectorate represent

DIS GON B' GUD!

 

[oneself]

I really don't care much about character build optmization. I am usually far more interested in how different and interesting the different "builds" are than if they are balanced.

I think they are fluff if they aren't actually useful and viable builds.

That could work if the sneaking system was more detailed so that, say, you could carry light sources and keep to open areas to avoid the said lurkers.

In other words, have means to circumventing degenerate gameplay.

But good strategies are often final. Meaning they have no way of being counteracted. What do you do against a legitimately good strategy.

I don't know what I can do if Carnifex always went first and saved half of the AP to throw flashbangs with no CD and grinded you out. Or enemies all acted like sentry bots.

 

[Beastro]

Wondering how I'm gonna round out my sniper later on both feat wise and skills.

Feat wise I dunno what to use for the last 2-4 feats, skills I need to know what I can reduce enough to spread around.

Stat-wise I'm

7 Str
3 Dex (pushed to 7 for quick tink as I level)
7 agi
3 con (pushed to 5 for conditioning as my last feat)
10 per
3 will
7 int

Feat-wise I these so far (almost lv12)

Aim Shot
Snipe
Gun nut
Hit and Run
Opportunist
Sprint
Vile Weaponry

Plan to also get:

Quick Tink
Power Management
Nimble

That leaves 3 feats left over and I'm wondering if one or two into some assault rifle feats for my backup weap might be good or not. One I'm eyeing are:

Critical Power
Commando
Sharpshooter
Concentrated Fire

Also - is Interloper good enough for a sneaky sniper build?
Are Skinner and Clother worth it for Tact vests and boots?

Skills wise it mainly revolves around what is the highest needed for DC/ the best gear, like how high should Stealth, Hacking, Traps, and all crafting be at? ATM I'm planning on only taking Chem to 40 for flashbangs and chemistry to 30 for the -5 per traps while the only ones I'm sure of maxing are Guns, Dodge and Evasion.

If you have 7 Str - is 8 str worth it for heavy armor? Agi is pretty low for dodge/evasion.

Yeah I've been mulling that over as well.

Besides Armour sloping what else would be needed to go that route? I could forget nimble and the light armour feats it I went with them as well as conditioning.

 

[Nines]

Wondering how I'm gonna round out my sniper later on both feat wise and skills.

I'm not sure why you put 7 points into strength. Seems a bit too much for a sneaky sniper build.
I would look into Ambush perk.
Interloper is sort of mandatory for stealth, in my opinion.
I don't think Power Management is worth it, unless you're using energy weapons.
Skinner won't give you any bonuses for tactical vests, since it's only for leather (doesn't mean you can't use leather armor).
Clothier is good for tabi boots.
I don't think Dodge is worth maxing. The important part of being a good range warrior is to make sure that you won't be hit in melee. Evasion is good though.

Take it with a grain of salt though, I'm not that experienced in the game.

 

[Alex]

I really don't care much about character build optmization. I am usually far more interested in how different and interesting the different "builds" are than if they are balanced.

I think they are fluff if they aren't actually useful and viable builds.

I think Age of Decadence is an example of how you can implement different kinds of characters without having to worry about combat too much. I haven't, unfortunately, played much besides the demo, but I understand the basic idea is definitely there.

That could work if the sneaking system was more detailed so that, say, you could carry light sources and keep to open areas to avoid the said lurkers.

In other words, have means to circumventing degenerate gameplay.

I dunno why you call it degenerate gameplay. Give the player a few means to dealing with this kind of enemy. Give him a few alternative ways of going around areas and let him fend for himself.

But good strategies are often final. Meaning they have no way of being counteracted. What do you do against a legitimately good strategy.

I don't know what I can do if Carnifex always went first and saved half of the AP to throw flashbangs with no CD and grinded you out. Or enemies all acted like sentry bots.

If the whole combat boils down to this or that strategy, try to figure out how people in the game would counteract it and then give the player those options as well.

 

[Tigranes]

Interloper isn't mandatory, but to me it's a huge quality of life perk. Hours of my life wasted sneaking around in that slow movement...

With Snipe, I don't think Ambush is mandatory - as discussed in this forum, in most cases you'd be opening with Snipe.

 

[Beastro]

I'm not sure why you put 7 points into strength. Seems a bit too much for a sneaky sniper build.

Was recommended to me to get up to that to have a back up assault rifle for close combat. Given what shit pistols are, I'm so far happy to have done so.

I would look into Ambush perk.

Was interested in that until I stumbled across some posts about people complaining that it wasn't working with certain light sources.

Interloper is sort of mandatory for stealth, in my opinion.

Yeah I'm still early and haven't found much use for stealth in combat beyond the opening Snipe shot, but I expect that to eventually change.

I don't think Power Management is worth it, unless you're using energy weapons.

Am planning to as a precautionary measure, I'll get to that at the end of this post.

Skinner won't give you any bonuses for tactical vests, since it's only for leather (doesn't mean you can't use leather armor).
Clothier is good for tabi boots.

Was planning to go with both until I read about what doing DC with those is like...

I don't think Dodge is worth maxing. The important part of being a good range warrior is to make sure that you won't be hit in melee. Evasion is good though.

Another precautionary method later on when un-immobilizing mobs pop up.

I was pretty sure of my old build until I began reading in this thread what DC is like and have been trying to find ways of preparing for it before I'm too levelled. The only thing I can think of is playing on normal the ordeal might not be as terrible as people are saying it is, but I'm not wanting to take any chances and hit a brick wall at the end necessitating a restart.

I'm not very fanatical about min-maxing and shit, but after reading this thread I get the vibe that DC is like the last bit of Nahlakh where it's hard even with the best items/build.

Interloper isn't mandatory, but to me it's a huge quality of life perk. Hours of my life wasted sneaking around in that slow movement...

With Snipe, I don't think Ambush is mandatory - as discussed in this forum, in most cases you'd be opening with Snipe.

Thing is I'm not low on patience, I've been doing my typical and spending time hauling tons of shit back to my current staging ground so I always have something to sell and don't mind taking my time setting up a good trap field when preparing for a big battle and such. For me, sneak speed isn't that big a deal and the only novelty I could see with Interloper would be to go into sneak and then go around a corner to set up Snipe without having to both with wasting flashbangs.

Yeah I don't see it adding much due to it being so situational and I often one shot things with Snipe as it is.

 

[Lhynn]

I think Age of Decadence is an example of how you can implement different kinds of characters without having to worry about combat too much. I haven't, unfortunately, played much besides the demo, but I understand the basic idea is definitely there.

Why are you bringing up an inferior game in terms of whatever the fuck you are talking about as a positive?

 

[hell bovine]

I don't think Baldur's Gate is balanced, but I think it is a better game than Underrail. I think that by choosing to respect the internal logic up to a point and giving the player a vast amount of interesting options, Baldur's Gate made something much more interesting overall. I don't mean by this to demean Underrail, only to say that it focused on something less important.

About the problem, I was trying to explain it in all these posts I have made in this thread.

What do you mean by "choosing to respect the internal logic up to a point and giving the player a vast amount of interesting options"? Because I had a lot of fun playing an evil sorceress, but frankly, I fail to see any sort of logic in how magic was implemented in that game. Prime example being the number of actions you could take in a round.

Well, though the implementation of combat guts and change some of the core ideas, Baldur's Gate and its sequel more or less follows the basic idea behind AD&D 2nd edition. Rounds still mean the same thing in both games (even though they are implemented differently), magic means the same thing, etc.

Magic in AD&D might seem weird and unthematic. But it is a lot of fun, exactly because it followed a specific logic inside Gary Gygax's head, copying ideas from various pulp fantasy works and adding some stuff of his own. It seems to me that a lot in Underrail is limited because of a premature and excessive concern about balance. For instance, I find it a bit ridiculous how your fire powers will only set people on fire if you have a certain feat. If the feat actually changed how your character acted, maybe your psionics would get stronger from setting stuff on fire, it could be argued that it was a thematic limitation. But it clearly isn't, it is just a balance concern. An example of game that at least used to take thematic concerns first was the Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. You would have cold spells shattering potions, fire spells burning scrolls, summoning imps that could raise the dead and what not.

You've missed my point. Baldur's Gate had a system in which there was an action per round limit; you could attack, cast a spell, drink a potion etc. And then it got all thrown out of the window by introducing spell sequencers, contingencies, improved alacrity and that lovely mage robe, which reduced casting time. The result is game, where a mage can unload their entire spellbook in such a short time, that anything not immune to magic or wearing enough spell protections to make them resemble a xmas tree would stand no chance. And then of course they gave mages an instant kill spell that ignored magic resistance and offered no save. And if you think that is better than having cooldowns on grenades to prevent their spamming, then I have to disagree, because to me the ability to mass spam skull traps is the shittier design choice. (and frankly, combat in unmodded BG was just boring)

 

[oneself]

I think Age of Decadence is an example of how you can implement different kinds of characters without having to worry about combat too much. I haven't, unfortunately, played much besides the demo, but I understand the basic idea is definitely there.

People criticized AoD for nets/bolas being rare in a world where you forge weapons out of meteors. If you cling dearly to reality/intuition, this is where AoD would fail you. Also AoD doesn't pretend all builds are viable. Ranged weapon are hilariously bad in that game. AoD's combat system is a lot simpler than Underrail too IMO. And in a simpler combat system, you have a much easier time to curb degeneracy without resorting to cooldown.

If the whole combat boils down to this or that strategy, try to figure out how people in the game would counteract it and then give the player those options as well.

I called it degenerate because there are very few ways to fend against it.

I dunno why you call it degenerate gameplay. Give the player a few means to dealing with this kind of enemy. Give him a few alternative ways of going around areas and let him fend for himself.

I guess that could work. But know that you are playing power peaks of particular items. Cooldown is unique in that they don't make it peak less, but it makes it peak less frequently. Giving direct tools to counter-act a particular strategy does make a item weaker, thus peaking less.

Then requiring a particular item setup prior for a particular encounter without any clues beforehand is often seen as bad design. When you have to apply it to something as simple as flashbangs, you will hear this complaint a lot.

 

[Lhynn]

Can someone get me screenshots of the psi powers that arent available on the wiki? i need to know where to invest extra points.

 

[oneself]

Can someone get me screenshots of the psi powers that arent available on the wiki? i need to know where to invest extra points.

Which one you want to know. That is a lot of work man.

 

[hell bovine]

Enough about the fucking cooldowns already.


So who killed Wyatt ? I really liked the guy, great story to tell... but I just had to kill him . Tough bastard. He isn't involved in anything else story/quest wise, is he?

You can talk about Wyatt with Abram, but only after you finish his questline (Wyatt is alive in my game, turns out I've killed him in my oddity playthrough, which I've abandoned in favor of classic), and there is also a persuade/intimidate and intelligence check. But I haven't finished the game, so I don't know if anything comes out of it.

 

[Lhynn]

Can someone get me screenshots of the psi powers that arent available on the wiki? i need to know where to invest extra points.

Which one you want to know. That is a lot of work man.

Psi cognitive interruption from thought control.
Pseudo spatial projection
neurovisual disruption


From thermodinamics
Exothermic aura
cryo shield