Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Goral]

On the plus side, AoD fans are extraordinarily easy to troll.

Yep, look at toro 's example.

 

[Blaine]

In my opinion, there's just a lot more fiddly shit in Underrail that generates more discussion. It's not a matter of intentionally favoring one game over the other.

That said, Underrail is at least twice the game AoD is, and is superior to it in nearly every aspect.

 

[Black Angel]

On the other hand, having aimed shots/attacks available only as feats felt kind of disappointing for me. It's one of the aspects I love in Fallout, and I certainly love it that it's available in AoD. Sure, in Fallout it ends up in eye-shots abuse, but my last playthrough of Fallout 1.5: Resurrection (Jinxed, low LCK unarmed character) I actually tried using attacks aimed at torso/groin (to knockdown enemies), arms (to disarm them), and legs (to cripple their movements) and it's FUN! It's the same case with AoD, and this time it's much more tactical because you ought to look at the enemy you're attacking (are they using shields or are they dodgers?).

I wonder if Styg made aimed shots/attacks available right from the very start for weapons, would the feats pool filled with ones more creative like the sexual orientation perks (like Black Widow/Lady Killer) or perks like Sneering Imperialist, or In Shining Armor (but properly implemented), AND also appearing in dialogue options/environmental interaction like in New Vegas? I can only imagine it....

Oh well, at least he's now taking notes from AoD combat and implementing weapon's special attacks and abilities when the expansion and new weapons roll.

I've also implemented the ability for weapons (and gear in general) to grant you special attacks and abilities so expect more of that in the future.

 

[Blaine]

I wish I could understand why so many people are obsessed with aimed shots. It doesn't seem to matter how many other tactical options and nuances the game offers—it better have aimed shots, or else I'm disappointed!

They aren't even particularly realistic. Actual police and military snipers aim for center of mass except in extraordinary circumstances, primarily when a police sniper absolutely must put someone's lights out instantaneously... and that's a sniper who's entrenched, lying prone or kneeling, with his rifle on a tripod or supporting structure, and with breathing space to aim carefully.

That's another thing: There has to be a kneeling and prone mode, too, or else!

My advice is to just get over it and try not to bemoan the lack of items from your personal feature wishlist.

 

[Sykar]

On the other hand, having aimed shots/attacks available only as feats felt kind of disappointing for me. It's one of the aspects I love in Fallout, and I certainly love it that it's available in AoD. Sure, in Fallout it ends up in eye-shots abuse, but my last playthrough of Fallout 1.5: Resurrection (Jinxed, low LCK unarmed character) I actually tried using attacks aimed at torso/groin (to knockdown enemies), arms (to disarm them), and legs (to cripple their movements) and it's FUN! It's the same case with AoD, and this time it's much more tactical because you ought to look at the enemy you're attacking (are they using shields or are they dodgers?).

I wonder if Styg made aimed shots/attacks available right from the very start for weapons, would the feats pool filled with ones more creative like the sexual orientation perks (like Black Widow/Lady Killer) or perks like Sneering Imperialist, or In Shining Armor (but properly implemented), AND also appearing in dialogue options/environmental interaction like in New Vegas? I can only imagine it....

Oh well, at least he's now taking notes from AoD combat and implementing weapon's special attacks and abilities when the expansion and new weapons roll.

I've also implemented the ability for weapons (and gear in general) to grant you special attacks and abilities so expect more of that in the future.

The combat in UnderRail is actually fun and challenging with some exceptions depending on build and circumstances. As much as I love Fallout but the combat has very little depth outside of aimed shots. There is no cover, no real special abilities, heck grenades suck so bad no one uses them, not even as an exotic build. It all boils down to having as much effective HP as possible, being filled up to the grill with stimpacks and having a high score in your respective combat ability and many do take the Fast Shot trait so they do not even have aimed shots at all. Oh and lastly praying that the next minigun or rocketlauncher or plasma rifle shot will not critically ignore all your armor modifiers because that is usually the end, even if you maxed endurance and took all life giving perks.

 

[Black Angel]

I know, I know. I'm not saying otherwise. It's just, well, as I've disclaimed few times in the past, I'm a newfag for cRPGs, and Underrail is my first cRPG ever. That means I've played Fallout 1&2 AFTER I've finished Underrail. Going from Underrail's aimed shots and special attacks requiring feat (perk) points to Fallout's combat allowing you to do those from the get-go without having to spend a perk point at all (and especially before Underrail I've also finished New Vegas+DLCs, experiencing it's pool of much more nuanced and sophisticated perks) makes me wonder what would happen IF Styg decided to allow aimed shots and special attacks right from the very start like that, and what feats he would come up with in place of those feats (Aimed Shots, Dirty Kick, Crippling Strike, etc etc) since they're available from the get-go instead of requiring feat points. I'm not saying my enjoyment of Underrail's combat is less than Fallout's just because aimed shots/special attacks requires feat points, it's just me digressing of what could have been.

 

[Goral]

That said, Underrail is at least twice the game AoD is, and is superior to it in nearly every aspect.

On the contrary but since we already have at least 2 threads of the UR vs. AoD variety I'll only add links:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-age-of-decadence.106415/page-3#post-4341927 (worse in combat department)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...awakens-released.105387/page-151#post-4319112 (much worse endgame)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...he-age-of-decadence.97976/page-6#post-3884255 (worse in the graphics department)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/toee-or-aod-or-ur.105900/page-2#post-4293735 (much worse everything else)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-age-of-decadence.106415/page-5#post-4343979 (it has no purpose hence it's often being compared to MMOs)

The only thing UR is better at is exploration.

 

[Jazz_]

worse combat and graphics? holy shit the delusion

 

[Alienman]

I know, I know. I'm not saying otherwise. It's just, well, as I've disclaimed few times in the past, I'm a newfag for cRPGs, and Underrail is my first cRPG ever. That means I've played Fallout 1&2 AFTER I've finished Underrail. Going from Underrail's aimed shots and special attacks requiring feat (perk) points to Fallout's combat allowing you to do those from the get-go without having to spend a perk point at all (and especially before Underrail I've also finished New Vegas+DLCs, experiencing it's pool of much more nuanced and sophisticated perks) makes me wonder what would happen IF Styg decided to allow aimed shots and special attacks right from the very start like that, and what feats he would come up with in place of those feats (Aimed Shots, Dirty Kick, Crippling Strike, etc etc) since they're available from the get-go instead of requiring feat points. I'm not saying my enjoyment of Underrail's combat is less than Fallout's just because aimed shots/special attacks requires feat points, it's just me digressing of what could have been.

Hell of a game to start with

 

[Sykar]

I know, I know. I'm not saying otherwise. It's just, well, as I've disclaimed few times in the past, I'm a newfag for cRPGs, and Underrail is my first cRPG ever. That means I've played Fallout 1&2 AFTER I've finished Underrail. Going from Underrail's aimed shots and special attacks requiring feat (perk) points to Fallout's combat allowing you to do those from the get-go without having to spend a perk point at all (and especially before Underrail I've also finished New Vegas+DLCs, experiencing it's pool of much more nuanced and sophisticated perks) makes me wonder what would happen IF Styg decided to allow aimed shots and special attacks right from the very start like that, and what feats he would come up with in place of those feats (Aimed Shots, Dirty Kick, Crippling Strike, etc etc) since they're available from the get-go instead of requiring feat points. I'm not saying my enjoyment of Underrail's combat is less than Fallout's just because aimed shots/special attacks requires feat points, it's just me digressing of what could have been.

They are not available from the get go in FO. Without massive investment into their respective combat skills to compensate the large penalties and good to great luck stat you won't get high enough on the crit table for those shots and kicks to do more than some extra damage and a fancy combat message, if you even hit them because even legs and arms were penalized by iirc 20% or 25%, that is substantial when your base chance is around 50% like most have in the first 10-12 leves at any distance greater than 3 hexes.
Also the Better Critical feat was a must to have a chance to get these things somewhat reliably at least. Then of course as I mentioned, many players choce the Fast Shot trait so they have none of those.

 

[Black Angel]

They are not available from the get go in FO. Without massive investment into their respective combat skills to compensate the large penalties and good to great luck stat you won't get high enough on the crit table for those shots and kicks to do more than some extra damage and a fancy combat message, if you even hit them because even legs and arms were penalized by iirc 20% or 25%, that is substantial when your base chance is around 50% like most have in the first 10-12 leves at any distance greater than 3 hexes.
Also the Better Critical feat was a must to have a chance to get these things somewhat reliably at least. Then of course as I mentioned, many players choce the Fast Shot trait so they have none of those.

What I mean 'from the get go' is that you can attempt it without having to spend a perk point like Underrail have to (Dirty Kick is basically a groin shot, Crippling Strike = torso/arms, Kneecap Shot = leg, etc etc). Your definition is also applicable to AoD, where with shit level of a weapon skill you would have shit THC when attempting aimed attacks. So why Underrail's not do the same and allow aimed shots/attacks 'from the get go' like that?

Oh, well.... I'll just stop overthinking it as advised by Blaine. Besides, like I said, this is just me digressing of what could have been (Styg implementing aimed shots/attacks without the need to spend a feat point, thus coming up with more creative feats in place of the feats giving you aimed shots/attacks).

 

[Lhynn]

They aren't even particularly realistic. Actual police and military snipers aim for center of mass except in extraordinary circumstances, primarily when a police sniper absolutely must put someone's lights out instantaneously... and that's a sniper who's entrenched, lying prone or kneeling, with his rifle on a tripod or supporting structure, and with breathing space to aim carefully.

Aimed shots make you feel like a badass. You are no regular police or military, you are a fucking god of murder forged by the worst [insert game] has to offer, you put the bullet between the cucks eyes instead of going for center of mass because its just as easy to you, and a lot deadlier.

 

[Blaine]

They aren't even particularly realistic. Actual police and military snipers aim for center of mass except in extraordinary circumstances, primarily when a police sniper absolutely must put someone's lights out instantaneously... and that's a sniper who's entrenched, lying prone or kneeling, with his rifle on a tripod or supporting structure, and with breathing space to aim carefully.

Aimed shots make you feel like a badass. You are no regular police or military, you are a fucking god of murder forged by the worst [insert game] has to offer, you put the bullet between the cucks eyes instead of going for center of mass because its just as easy to you, and a lot deadlier.

Can't help but see a frail dweeb in my mind's eye, hunched over his computer listening to death metal and whispering, "Yeah! Fuck yeah, I'm a badass! Hell yeah, I'm fucking HARDCORE! TAKE THAT, motherfuckers!" in a squeaky lisp.

 

[Lhynn]

Can't help but see a frail dweeb in my mind's eye, hunched over his computer listening to death metal and whispering, "Yeah! Fuck yeah, I'm a badass! Hell yeah, I'm fucking HARDCORE! TAKE THAT, motherfuckers!" in a squeaky lisp.

Cant help but see a retard that does not understand the game and genre hes playing. This isnt a swat game.

 

[ciox]

What I mean 'from the get go' is that you can attempt it without having to spend a perk point like Underrail have to (Dirty Kick is basically a groin shot, Crippling Strike = torso/arms, Kneecap Shot = leg, etc etc). Your definition is also applicable to AoD, where with shit level of a weapon skill you would have shit THC when attempting aimed attacks. So why Underrail's not do the same and allow aimed shots/attacks 'from the get go' like that?

Oh, well.... I'll just stop overthinking it as advised by Blaine. Besides, like I said, this is just me digressing of what could have been (Styg implementing aimed shots/attacks without the need to spend a feat point, thus coming up with more creative feats in place of the feats giving you aimed shots/attacks).

I think it was a fine decision by Styg to make the aimed shots into feats.

What he did there was making the effects reliable (they always have the same intended effect, it's not based on crit tables/chance) and then balancing this strong reliability with some penalties like a turn-based cooldown or a very low maximum range (see Kneecap Shot) which would be very strange if they were just attached to your normal attack depending on what body part you're targetting.. but as special abilities that put all the good and the bad in one package they work alright.

The only critical aspect could be that you waste too many feat points getting all of the aimed shot types, to fix that some of the weaker ones could be combined so you get 2 abilities for 1 feat, but I never felt this would be necessary while playing the game.

 

[Blaine]

"I want to LARP a badass" really isn't a good excuse for being an obnoxious, whiny cunt just because your highly specific personal preference hasn't been implemented, though.

I could describe countless situations in Underrail that in theory "make me feel like a badass." None of them would constitute actual arguments for or against feel-features. Fuck off.

I'm sick to death of the cadre of complete faggots constantly whining about aimed shots. Hang yourselves.

You can kill a roomful of people WITH YOUR MIND in this game WITHOUT THEM EVEN KNOWN YOU'RE THERE, but is that enough? No, OH LOOOOOOORD, JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY PLEASE GOD IN HEAVEN I NEED AIMED SHOTS, OHHHHHH SWEET GOD ON HIGH PLEEEEEEEASE LORD I NEED AIMED SHOTS RRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[Lhynn]

Flavor is the single most important thing in an rpg, without it you are just watching numbers go against numbers, which can be entertaining on its own right but isnt what drives this game.
"Unrealistic" (whatever that fucking means) over the top sitations are what drives it, and called shots can add to that.
So you fuck off you retarded twit, you have no argument here.

 

[Blaine]

Flavor is the single most important thing in an rpg, without it you are just watching numbers go against numbers, which can be entertaining on its own right but isnt what drives this game.
"Unrealistic" (whatever that fucking means) over the top sitations are what drives it, and called shots can add to that.
So you fuck off you retarded twit, you have no argument here.

I do have an argument, and that argument is quite simply that you're ignoring a wealth of other nuances and options that didn't exist in, say, Fallout/2 or JA/2, while focusing on aimed/called shots.

On balance, the character and combat mechanics in Underrail add plenty of flavor. You've been conditioned like a retarded dog to expect aimed shots and seem to be blind to everything else.

Funny thing, I don't constantly see people screeching and complaining about the lack of trick archery shots and hacking off individual limbs in fantasy RPGs. I wonder why that is?

 

[Lhynn]

On balance, the character and combat mechanics in Underrail add plenty of flavor. You've been conditioned like a retarded dog to expect aimed shots and seem to be blind to everything else.

No im not, dont make me the object of your retarded pet peeves, im merely stating the obvious. Being an master that can go against entire enemy encampments alone, whose accuracy is the stuff of legends should be able to hit a headshot with relative ease, it fits the genre, it fits the concept and it missing is certainly noticeable.
That said im not even sure if it would be a positive for the gameplay, guess it would come down to execution, but thats neither here nor there.
I do not give a shit as i mainly play melee characters in underrail but at this point your blatant apologism is kind of unbearable sometimes.

 

[Blaine]

This is how I know you're a retarded faggot.

Defending Underrail against autistic aimed shot fetishists isn't apologism, because there's nothing to apologize for. Lacking an aimed shot mechanic isn't a deficiency, and every RPG featuring a modern/sci-fi setting doesn't need to have an aimed shot feature.

It's less about Underrail and more about the aimed shot faggotry.

 

[Jazz_]

It would be cool if aiming at body parts would affect your enemy in tangible ways, like shooting at a leg to compromise their mobility, I don't remember any game other than Jagged Alliance 2 that took that into account, in JA2 enemies who were hit in the leg would sometimes collapse to the ground, if they were shot in the arm they would lose their weapon, etc. also headshots at ploint blank range were pretty...satisfactory.
But if game allows you to hit different body parts without acknowledging the physical implications and having animations for them then it's kinda lame, in AoD you can hit different body parts but that only affects some stats of your enemy (hitting legs lowers their dodge if I remember correctly, while hitting their arms lowers their accuracy? something like that), not really how they behave.

 

[Blaine]

Yes, they do.
Aimed shots are you, know, a thing.
Especially in a RPG where at some point people get magic spells or power armor - shooting at the super-resistant chest plate over and over seems kinda stupid then.

No, they don't.

Perhaps someone should make you a mod in which you get a realistic 4% hit chance to shoot someone in the eye, but somehow I don't think you'll be happy.

 

[ciox]

Seems I'm out of moderation but one of my sorta relevant posts here got stuck in it for a good while anyway, so I'll repost if that's alright.

What I mean 'from the get go' is that you can attempt it without having to spend a perk point like Underrail have to (Dirty Kick is basically a groin shot, Crippling Strike = torso/arms, Kneecap Shot = leg, etc etc). Your definition is also applicable to AoD, where with shit level of a weapon skill you would have shit THC when attempting aimed attacks. So why Underrail's not do the same and allow aimed shots/attacks 'from the get go' like that?

Oh, well.... I'll just stop overthinking it as advised by Blaine. Besides, like I said, this is just me digressing of what could have been (Styg implementing aimed shots/attacks without the need to spend a feat point, thus coming up with more creative feats in place of the feats giving you aimed shots/attacks).

I think it was a fine decision by Styg to make the aimed shots into feats.

What he did there was making the effects reliable (they always have the same intended effect, it's not based on crit tables/chance) and then balancing this strong reliability with some penalties like a turn-based cooldown or a very low maximum range (see Kneecap Shot, justified since it has such a strong effect on mobility) which would be very strange if they were just attached to your normal attack depending on what body part you're targeting.. but as special abilities that put all the good and the bad in one package they work alright.

The only critical aspect could be that you waste too many feat points getting all of the aimed shot types, to fix that some of the weaker ones could be combined so you get 2 abilities for 1 feat, but I never felt this would be necessary while playing the game, having them all separate lets you specialize in that aspect or not.

 

[oneself]

That said, Underrail is at least twice the game AoD is, and is superior to it in nearly every aspect.

On the contrary but since we already have at least 2 threads of the UR vs. AoD variety I'll only add links:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-age-of-decadence.106415/page-3#post-4341927 (worse in combat department)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...awakens-released.105387/page-151#post-4319112 (much worse endgame)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...he-age-of-decadence.97976/page-6#post-3884255 (worse in the graphics department)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/toee-or-aod-or-ur.105900/page-2#post-4293735 (much worse everything else)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...s-age-of-decadence.106415/page-5#post-4343979 (it has no purpose hence it's often being compared to MMOs)

The only thing UR is better at is exploration.

 

[Parabalus]

Problem with aimed shots in FO is that after a certain level of Small Guns skill, there's not much need to do anything but eyeshots. So eventually you get a super-sniper character that can hit everyone in the eyes from fifty meters with a handgun, or even a flare, and there's zero defense against that - so the game tilts way in the player's direction because he is the only one smart enough to be doing the instadeath thing. You might as well turn it into a special ability with a cooldown.

Also CRPGs seem to ignore certain bodyparts. For example, I can't punch to take out their air, or knee-cap someone, or break someone's wrist, or punch a nose or chin, or hit the ears, or stab someone straight in the heart.

The problem with aimed shots in FO is that the entirety of combat in Fallout is utter horsecock.

The combat in Underrail is very interesting, engaging and yes, quite well . Exactly which particular mechanics make up the whole is if far less important than their sum being great.