Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Maggot]

do the foundry beast quest and then you can infuse leathers with supersteel fibers

 

[Blaine]

Why does all leather suck? Where do I find good leather?

Until the end of the game, leather is bad at providing protection (except versus acid) but excellent at helping shy and depressed virgins hide in the shadows.

It is literally only useful for shy and depressed virgin builds. Any other build should use tac vests or lighter riot gear if retention of significant mobility is desired.

Fortunately, shields are by far the best defensive option in the game, which lessens the blow of wearing terrible armor.

 

[Jezal_k23]

I've been forcing myself to go for leather cause I invested in Dodge/Evasion. So I don't want to take higher armor penalties.

 

[Blaine]

I've been forcing myself to go for leather cause I invested in Dodge/Evasion. So I don't want to take higher armor penalties.

Yeah, welcome to the wonderful world of Dodge and Evasion—a magical place in which two skills that do absolutely nothing other than decrease enemy accuracy* greedily hog a full 25% of your skill points and feats. From your vantage in the shadows, you eat your room-temperature eel sandwich and gaze longingly at all the Chads in gleaming metal carapaces, sci-fi marvels that cost them not a single skill point or feat. The thought of approaching them and saying hi flicks through your mind, but worry that they might laugh at you almost gives you an anxiety attack.

Suddenly, you're filled with rage. Fuck this gay Earth! Why should they get to be the chosen ones? They didn't earn their 6'4" statures and naturally athletic, well-proportioned bodies. Hands shaking with outrage, you cock your crossbow and let fly at the nearest Chad.

BINK! The Chad doesn't even notice or look around. The bent and broken bolt rolls down the street and into the gutter, just like your emotions and life.



* Offer not valid if stunned, incapacitated, off-balance, or attacked by psychic entities.

 

[Jezal_k23]

Ultimately I think I'll agree that the Dodge/Evasion investment is too high for the benefit offered, not to mention the downsides which include cutting you off from a huge diversity of equipment that would be viable otherwise. I think the way the armor penalties are implemented now is logical, since you really shouldn't be mobile in heavy armor, but it looks like very high investment for little reward. I'll keep going though because now it's too late to turn back.

Maybe it would feel better if there was a higher diversity of light armor to choose from? I don't know, seems like a complex problem.

 

[Blaine]

Ultimately I think I'll agree that the Dodge/Evasion investment is too high for the benefit offered, not to mention the downsides which include cutting you off from a huge diversity of equipment that would be viable otherwise. I think the way the armor penalties are implemented now is logical, since you really shouldn't be mobile in heavy armor, but it looks like very high investment for little reward. I'll keep going though because now it's too late to turn back.

They need to be consolidated into one skill, been saying so for ages. The skill sheet wouldn't look as fancy, but ultimately that's not the important thing. Actually, basing them solely on Agility and Dexterity scores + level (not unlike Detection) would be great also.

 

[ItsChon]

There is, in fact, another way to turn the plasma turrets on with no hacking or any other skill. It just requires going somewhere and getting something first. The statue is strictly hacking and electronics though.

Where @ tho?

 

[Sykar]

Ultimately I think I'll agree that the Dodge/Evasion investment is too high for the benefit offered, not to mention the downsides which include cutting you off from a huge diversity of equipment that would be viable otherwise. I think the way the armor penalties are implemented now is logical, since you really shouldn't be mobile in heavy armor, but it looks like very high investment for little reward. I'll keep going though because now it's too late to turn back.

They need to be consolidated into one skill, been saying so for ages. The skill sheet wouldn't look as fancy, but ultimately that's not the important thing. Actually, basing them solely on Agility and Dexterity scores + level (not unlike Detection) would be great also.

Evasion can easily be put into subterfuge skills, seeing as it is usually used by light armored stealth type enemies. Armor penalties restrict its effectiveness too much. There, done, should look fine that way. Still would suffer from the fact that in your most vulnerable moments, being stunned, incapacitated or tackled, it offers no protection.

 

[Jezal_k23]

So ultimately the problem with how Dodge/Evasion are designed is that not putting points into them offers a significant reward - the possibility of using heavier armor, and if you do decide to put points into them, you better be prepared to invest a fuckload. Clearly the balance is off there and this is a significant problem with the skill system at this time. That said these suggestions to fix the system sound fairly reasonable so far.

 

[Sykar]

So ultimately the problem with how Dodge/Evasion are designed is that not putting points into them offers a significant reward - the possibility of using heavier armor, and if you do decide to put points into them, you better be prepared to invest a fuckload. Clearly the balance is off there and this is a significant problem with the skill system at this time. That said these suggestions to fix the system sound fairly reasonable so far.

Tygrende once mocked my 3 con PSI Sniper for having the lowest amount of hit points and no passive defense when I was complaining about Death Stalkers as the only enemy being almost unbeatable without cheesing the shit out of them. What he failed to take into consideration was that I already had a very early incarnation where I gave up Mechancis and Electronics for Dodge and Evasion. Suffice to say, the crafting skills, especially electronics, gave me fare more survivability than those two on top of giving me tremendous damage since crafted sniper rifles take a giant dump on unique ones.

 

[Blaine]

So ultimately the problem with how Dodge/Evasion are designed is that not putting points into them offers a significant reward - the possibility of using heavier armor, and if you do decide to put points into them, you better be prepared to invest a fuckload. Clearly the balance is off there and this is a significant problem with the skill system at this time. That said these suggestions to fix the system sound fairly reasonable so far.

The main problem is actually that skill-intensive builds exist in a system where everyone receives exactly the same number of skill points. Compounding this is the fact that Dodge and Evasion must be maxed for the entire game, whereas the much more potent crafting skills can be left far lower whilst churning out weapons, armor, and shield emitters fit for the Battlestar Galactica.

Not only do armor Chads essentially receive 33% more skill points to invest elsewhere, even their base ability requirements are less restrictive, meaning an extra point or two to invest in Intelligence, which in turn means even fewer points needed to invest in the ever-dominant crafting skills!

 

[Sykar]

All characters gaining the exact amount of skill points is one of the few things bothering me with the game tbh.

In other news, the newest patch gave us this among other things:

[Expedition] Temporal Distortion will now properly break incapacitation/freeze

but

[Expedition] Continuum Ripple - Chance changed to 25% (down from 35%)

 

[Jezal_k23]

These flaws stand out in a game that the devs otherwise take a lot of care in balancing.

 

[ItsChon]

Spoiler

Is there even a place to sneak into/attack the pirate base by yourself? Ive gone all around the base and can't find a single spot.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[ItsChon]

After much experimentation,

Spoiler

The ideal negotiation package with the pirates where you give up the least shit needs 100 effective persuasion. You offer to pull Aegis cruisers from the entrance, give them all the info you know and ask for ability to move through their waters, and offer to deal with the natives. You could probably replace one of these if you wished with something from the camp, but I didn't run any tests on it, so you might have to give more than one thing.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Ultimately I think I'll agree that the Dodge/Evasion investment is too high for the benefit offered, not to mention the downsides which include cutting you off from a huge diversity of equipment that would be viable otherwise. I think the way the armor penalties are implemented now is logical, since you really shouldn't be mobile in heavy armor, but it looks like very high investment for little reward. I'll keep going though because now it's too late to turn back.

Maybe it would feel better if there was a higher diversity of light armor to choose from? I don't know, seems like a complex problem.

Dodge is bad since low penalty characters can just use their high mobility to keep away from melee enemies most of the time.
Evasion is fine. It's not meant to be your only defence, it's just part of it. As a low penalty character you have stealth to kill threats before they can fight back, mobility to back up to safe places at the end of your turn, evasion to maybe dodge things, shield to absorb damage from shots that do hit, armour to absorb damage from shots that pierce your shield. It doesn't need to work 100% of the time.
Also look into tactical vests. They can be just as light as leather if you don't use a plate, and they're much better against bullets. If you get lucky you can buy a 110 quality laminated panel as soon as you find the drill parts, and that gives you 30 DT vs bullets for only 10% penalty. Combine that with a shield and you'll be able to survive the shots that get past your evasion no problem. Leather is good early on and later once you get super steel, but during midgame it kinda sucks since the quality stops going up.

 

[hell bovine]

Door-camping and spamming grenades is pretty much mandatory, yes (though again, not every build utilizes Throwing, meaning you'll be save-scumming more often than not without it), but you still haven't addressed the fact that low-level, low-PER builds will die in one hit from a mine in that area, even with food and goggles. Again we arrive in save-scumming territory.

Depends. I went through at level 7 (and of course shortly after scrapped the character to try a different build, lol) with a 3 perception guy. He had 25 in traps, paranoia, goggles, trappers belt and detected just fine. Didn't snack on anything, though I remember finding bat food which adds 15(?) or so detection, so it could be an alternatve if you don't have any traps skill.

Admittedly, I tend to "move & stop to detect" in suspicious areas, which is a leftover from playing IE games where I got plenty of rogues killed by being to impatient.

 

[Marten Broadcloak]

Spoiler

Is there even a place to sneak into/attack the pirate base by yourself? Ive gone all around the base and can't find a single spot.

Yes. Disembark on the south-eastern side, on the cave shore across from the battleship.

Ultimately I think I'll agree that the Dodge/Evasion investment is too high for the benefit offered, not to mention the downsides which include cutting you off from a huge diversity of equipment that would be viable otherwise. I think the way the armor penalties are implemented now is logical, since you really shouldn't be mobile in heavy armor, but it looks like very high investment for little reward. I'll keep going though because now it's too late to turn back.

Maybe it would feel better if there was a higher diversity of light armor to choose from? I don't know, seems like a complex problem.

Dodge is bad since low penalty characters can just use their high mobility to keep away from melee enemies most of the time.
Evasion is fine. It's not meant to be your only defence, it's just part of it. As a low penalty character you have stealth to kill threats before they can fight back, mobility to back up to safe places at the end of your turn, evasion to maybe dodge things, shield to absorb damage from shots that do hit, armour to absorb damage from shots that pierce your shield. It doesn't need to work 100% of the time.
Also look into tactical vests. They can be just as light as leather if you don't use a plate, and they're much better against bullets. If you get lucky you can buy a 110 quality laminated panel as soon as you find the drill parts, and that gives you 30 DT vs bullets for only 10% penalty. Combine that with a shield and you'll be able to survive the shots that get past your evasion no problem. Leather is good early on and later once you get super steel, but during midgame it kinda sucks since the quality stops going up.

Watch and despair as I destroy all of your arguments with two words:

Spoiler

Rathound Regalia

 

[Tigranes]

Door-camping and spamming grenades is pretty much mandatory, yes (though again, not every build utilizes Throwing, meaning you'll be save-scumming more often than not without it), but you still haven't addressed the fact that low-level, low-PER builds will die in one hit from a mine in that area, even with food and goggles. Again we arrive in save-scumming territory.

Depends. I went through at level 7 (and of course shortly after scrapped the character to try a different build, lol) with a 3 perception guy. He had 25 in traps, paranoia, goggles, trappers belt and detected just fine. Didn't snack on anything, though I remember finding bat food which adds 15(?) or so detection, so it could be an alternatve if you don't have any traps skill.

Admittedly, I tend to "move & stop to detect" in suspicious areas, which is a leftover from playing IE games where I got plenty of rogues killed by being to impatient.

As I pointed out several pages ago, 3 PER dudes with Paranoia and Trappers Belt will see all Depot A traps just fine, just not instantly.

 

[Blaine]

Paranoia is absolute shit in this context. It's +20% of a score that's already garbage because you have very low PER. I can put on +80-150% fucking goggles instead later on in the game and not burn a feat, which is what I usually do on low-PER heavy melee guys.

That's why they added all the other shit to Paranoia, but it's still shit. You know what would make it NOT shit? An additive bonus that scales in the same way the derived attribute does! But nope, you get +20% to your already-shit score.

I'm not picking a shit feat just survive one dungeon without cheesing. I'd rather scrounge around for more levels first and muddle through. What you CAN do to finish Depot A at lower levels isn't necessarily what's DESIRABLE to do when it affects the entire rest of the damn game, which is also why the acid puddle avoidance feet can suck my cock.

 

[Tigranes]

OK? I'm saying that a low PER character at ~level 7 can survive Depot A without reloading 20 times until your molotov lands exactly right and your dice roll exactly correctly. The ability to see traps despite low PER is a part of that.

Of course you can build a different kind of character and/or go in at level 8, 9, 10, 11, as you like. Did anybody on planet Earth dispute this?

You were claiming that level 7 dudes cannot do Depot A without ridiculous cheesing. I also find such play unfun, so if that was the case, I would just have come back later...?

 

[ItsChon]

Rathound Regalia is a godsend. I can't imagine playing my Psi-Sniper without it, as I don't have enough points to budget it in tailoring for the leather armor. There is a new unique armor in the game though that I believe might be better. I am still looking for it.

Also managed to beat wave 2 without any deaths or a plasma turret. Locus of Control + Engrage, with the proper use of Force Field is huge.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

Watch and despair as I destroy all of your arguments with two words:

Spoiler

Rathound Regalia

30 DT vs bullets is pretty nice though.

 

[hell bovine]

Paranoia is absolute shit in this context. It's +20% of a score that's already garbage because you have very low PER. I can put on +80-150% fucking goggles instead later on in the game and not burn a feat, which is what I usually do on low-PER heavy melee guys.

Which is your personal preference and has nothing to do whether you can or cannot do mutant land without quick-reloading at low level and with 3 perception.

I've found it useful on that character, then again I dislike quick-reloading. Just like I've found sure step & caltrop herding useful with my chem girl, even before she could craft chem pistols.