Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Black Angel]

Surprised grenades were never nerfed, they offer too much for too little investment.

Constant need to resupply, mediocre damage without Three-Pointer and heavy investment into Throwing, mediocre 'nades without crafting, expensive components without Mercantile, need for space as you can't use them everywhere as you will need to keep 3 tiles safe space in mind. 'Nades are quite alright in terms of balancing.

Not to mention Grenadier doesn't have spec options.

Also, I remembered Codexers arguing how cooldowns being applied into 'nades as something very dumb that completely turned them off from playing the game.

It could be argued that grenades were buffed with the inclusion of plasma grenades.

And with TM given how LTI interacts with the CD.

That is if you consider the char invested into TM at all.

Even just the plain molotov is ridiculous, without any feat or skill investment.

With no skill investment, you'd be under the complete mercy of the RNG, unless you're throwing it at your feet or point-blank melee range, in which case it's fine if you're wearing anti-Heat gear, I guess?

 

[lukaszek]

With no skill investment, you'd be under the complete mercy of the RNG, unless you're throwing it at your feet or point-blank melee range, in which case it's fine if you're wearing anti-Heat gear, I guess?

with blast cloth you can throw plasma grenades at your feet. Not much compatible with energy shield though

 

[BING XI LAO]

Accuracy is not the issue, though. If people like to reload until their grenade hits, that is not up to the developer to fix afaic. It is absurd to try to fix issues that are due to excessive reloading in chance-based games.

This would be a fair point but even with good throwing or good psi you have a random chance to occxasionally instantly kill yourself in one hit with with a grenade or cryo orb

 

[Trashos]

Accuracy is not the issue, though. If people like to reload until their grenade hits, that is not up to the developer to fix afaic. It is absurd to try to fix issues that are due to excessive reloading in chance-based games.

This would be a fair point but even with good throwing or good psi you have a random chance to occxasionally instantly kill yourself in one hit with with a grenade or cryo orb

OK, so how did this go from "this would be a fair point" to rating my post "retadred"? Anyhow.

Having a chance to kill yourself with good psi/throwing is indeed the problem.

 

[Yaz]

Having a chance to kill yourself with good psi/throwing is indeed the problem.

How's that the problem when you can not take chances when using both 'nades and Psi?

 

[Trashos]

How's that the problem when you can not take chances when using both 'nades and Psi?

Partially, depending on geography and situation.

I generally want to see all weapons and abilities go up to 100% accuracy in the next game.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Accuracy is not the issue, though. If people like to reload until their grenade hits, that is not up to the developer to fix afaic. It is absurd to try to fix issues that are due to excessive reloading in chance-based games.

This would be a fair point but even with good throwing or good psi you have a random chance to occxasionally instantly kill yourself in one hit with with a grenade or cryo orb

OK, so how did this go from "this would be a fair point" to rating my post "retadred"?

Just my extreme butthurt at occasionally instagibbing myself with what is normally the right move.

 

[Yaz]

I generally want to see all weapons and abilities go up to 100% accuracy in the next game.

Seen a lot of folk with similar sentiment, honestly.

I guess it's difficult for people to see, but believe me - you'd get bored if that was the case. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Think about it - it's better than 100 %.

Just my extreme butthurt at occasionally instagibbing myself with what is normally the right move.

From that perspective it's not the right move if you have a chance to land in your 'nades aoe.

 

[BING XI LAO]

It's okay to have RNG but it shouldn't apply to this extent to highly damaging, disabling AoE attacks.

95% chance to hit with guns is stupid too, you can be exceptionally skilled with a great gun firing at an immobilized target right in front of you in clear light, and miss just 'cause.

But I can see how if you totally remove RNG it means battles can become a slightly tiresome excercise of figuring out ahead of time exactly how much AP to dedicate to killing each enemy in which order.

 

[Trashos]

you'd get bored if that was the case. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Nah, I am in the deterministic club myself. I generally find the insistence on dice rolls in RPGs for everything tiresome. The only reason I do not complain about it all the time is because most games let you stack the odds in your favor bigtime. In the specific case of UR it means that by now I avoid weapons that attack only a couple of times per turn.

Anyway, most psi abilities are already 100% accuracy, and there is still RNG in the applied damage anyway. For weapons it could be less dramatic, like have 100% only for specific distances. On the other hand, I know that most people find the chance to miss exciting, so it is what it is.

I do not mind needing a plan B btw. But you do not need a cap in accuracy to need a plan B, due to the RNG in damage.

if you totally remove RNG it means battles can become a slightly tiresome excercise of figuring out ahead of time exactly how much AP to dedicate to killing each enemy in which order.

Music to my ears!

 

[Yaz]

Nah, I am in the deterministic club myself.

Underrail can very well have determinism but I'd sooner connect that with overall deterministic success in a given encounter. Suppose you have an AR that does 30 damage per shot and you burst for, say, 7 shots... you wouldn't be able to kill a 220 hp chum. No crits, no miss, no damage spread. That's ugly. Little build variety and lack of tactical complexity is how I see it, but that's determinism.

And I am not trying to be stubborn here.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I love RNG myself, but sometimes... I taze the guy, he's stunned; I open with Expose Weakness at 95% THC and 350 effective melee skill - and it's a miss! This or similar happened to everyone. Why do we need this kind of RNG?

 

[Trashos]

Yaz, if you want my general comment on determinism in gaming, then here it is: One of the (if not the) most beautiful, complex, successful and prestigious games mankind has ever created is chess. It is fully deterministic.

But in the case of UR I did not suggest such a thing. I am just saying that hit probability should not be capped at 95%. So I am suggesting more determinism, not full determinism.

 

[lukaszek]

this new topic is some sort of elaborate bait, isnt it?

 

[eXalted]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

 

[Ol' Willy]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

Read basics anyway

https://www.stygiansoftware.com/wiki/index.php?title=Combat_Stats

Then go as you wish

 

[Sweeper]

Yaz, if you want my general comment on determinism in gaming, then here it is: One of the (if not the) most beautiful, complex, successful and prestigious games mankind has ever created is chess. It is fully deterministic.

Go play chess then.
The very fucking core of RPGs are dice rolls.
An RPG therefor, can not, by definition, be deterministic.

 

[Yaz]

Yaz, if you want my general comment on determinism in gaming, then here it is: One of the (if not the) most beautiful, complex, successful and prestigious games mankind has ever created is chess. It is fully deterministic.

But in the case of UR I did not suggest such a thing. I am just saying that hit probability should not be capped at 95%. So I am suggesting more determinism, not full determinism.

Don't worry. I got perfectly what you meant the first time

My exaggerated example is only there to point to an extreme in which determinism ruins games. I think we can agree on that point. All in all, I think Underrail strikes a very good balance where the notes might play differently but the music is always good in the end. I am not entirely against perfect hits but I think those should be governed by prerequisites other than skill points. In other words - the player should really work for a perfect hit.

BTW, it's actually not known whether Chess is fully deterministic because white doesn't always win. Despite being a game of perfect information the perfect determinism stretches only to given situations. It's exactly in trying to dodge a harmful and fully deterministic situation that both players create the ebb and flow of the game.

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

I tell that to every new player of Underrail. Just experiment ... oh, and play Oddity.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

I think on normal you can pretty much do what you like, though taking throwing or traps or stealth (or all of them) will make sure you don't get screwed later on.

 

[Parabalus]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

Depends on your char, if you want to play a wizard you can go blind on Hard. If you want an easier time take Stealth.

Generally a feat or skill here or there won't make or break a character, most of the difficulty (and fun) is knowing the enemy and preparing accordingly.

 

[coldcrow]

BTW, it's actually not known whether Chess is fully deterministic because white doesn't always win. Despite being a game of perfect information the perfect determinism stretches only to given situations. It's exactly in trying to dodge a harmful and fully deterministic situation that both players create the ebb and flow of the game.

False. Chess is fully deterministic. Who gave you the idea that with the current rules white's advantage is enough to win? Stalemate, positional fortresses and "not-enough-material-to-checkmate" are enough to ensure a draw by best play from both sides.
There is simply no random element in chess if we presume ideal players.

PS: If there was a rule change to stalemate, being either a win or 0,75:0,25 (proposed by E. Lasker), that would change plenty of opening line evals, since suddenly all a and h pawn endings would be won.

 

[Yosharian]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

Depends on your skill with CRPGs and your build. If you go for a versatility build with stealth and grenades I think it's possible to complete the game without any metagaming on Normal.

People will tell you Normal difficulty is easy and can be completed easily with any build, but IMO the game is fairly difficult for newcomers on normal difficulty.

 

[Tigranes]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

Read basics anyway

https://www.stygiansoftware.com/wiki/index.php?title=Combat_Stats

Then go as you wish

Normal/Oddity & fucking around is perfectly fine. You can check with us if you're doing something horribly wrong or getting stuck, just in case.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Normal/Oddity & fucking around is perfectly fine. You can check with us if you're doing something horribly wrong or getting stuck, just in case.

Basics are necessary, unless one wants to discover the meaning of armor penalty or fixed number of APs already during the run.

I said it before and I will say it again: Underrail needs a manual, like Fallout or Arcanum did, shipped as PDF alongside the copy of the game.

 

[Sheepherder]

Yo, I played a Metathermics only psi build on Dominating a while back and made a video about it and a thread on the official forum.
Remember, Pyrokinetic Stream? That shitty psi ability that eats up all your psi points and AP? It's actually quite good on a solo-school psi build, reaches ~1.4k damage per cast for 35 AP and ~60 psi points, twice a turn. Needs quite some work to make work tho.

The thread. Mostly about how to make the thing work without leaving the build stuck with no AP: https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?&topic=6155.0