Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Sykar]

BTW, it's actually not known whether Chess is fully deterministic because white doesn't always win. Despite being a game of perfect information the perfect determinism stretches only to given situations. It's exactly in trying to dodge a harmful and fully deterministic situation that both players create the ebb and flow of the game.

False. Chess is fully deterministic. Who gave you the idea that with the current rules white's advantage is enough to win? Stalemate, positional fortresses and "not-enough-material-to-checkmate" are enough to ensure a draw by best play from both sides.
There is simply no random element in chess if we presume ideal players.

PS: If there was a rule change to stalemate, being either a win or 0,75:0,25 (proposed by E. Lasker), that would change plenty of opening line evals, since suddenly all a and h pawn endings would be won.

Is it though? Just a glance at the wikipedia page and there seems some controversy at least. Also white seems for over a century now to win slightly more than black:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess

Up to 55.4% win percentage for white and never lower than 52%. So at least for the human mind there is a minor advantage for white. Whether this has any bearing for machine play I have not checked upon further but is also ultimately irrelevant to this particular issue.

 

[Yaz]

Who gave you the idea

presume ideal players.

Pretty much that. I don't presume ideal humans. Chess could be described as perfectly deterministic if we had a draw every time or a win by either side every time. We don't. That's why we don't know enough to call it fully deterministic. At least I'll admit so for myself. I can only say that there are fully deterministic outcomes in local situations, which - by extension - is the point that I also make for Underrail's RNG.

 

[Raghar]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

Blind ironman is probably better at easy.

Also don't read spoilers. (aside of for early game 8 perception is enough in case you are wondering about snooping perk, its 5 PER + snooping perk, but most people are considering snooping perk irrelevant. Nice for first playtrough for low PER character, but not a must.)

 

[Inconceivable]

BTW, it's actually not known whether Chess is fully deterministic because white doesn't always win. Despite being a game of perfect information the perfect determinism stretches only to given situations. It's exactly in trying to dodge a harmful and fully deterministic situation that both players create the ebb and flow of the game.

Deterministic... you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
Chess is deterministic (there is no random element to its rules) and it has perfect information (every player is fully aware of the game's state at all times).

The only "random element" in chess are the choices the players make, but always within the confines of the perfectly deterministic rules.

On the topic of deterministic vs non-deterministic case, you should really check out http://www.c-evo.org/. A fully deterministic Civilization clone that is good, extremely tactical and actually quite fun.

 

[Black Angel]

With no skill investment, you'd be under the complete mercy of the RNG, unless you're throwing it at your feet or point-blank melee range, in which case it's fine if you're wearing anti-Heat gear, I guess?

with blast cloth you can throw plasma grenades at your feet. Not much compatible with energy shield though

Exactly my point. You'd have to put some form of compensation for zero investment into Throwing if you plan to throw a 'nade at your feet every time.

I love RNG myself, but sometimes... I taze the guy, he's stunned; I open with Expose Weakness at 95% THC and 350 effective melee skill - and it's a miss! This or similar happened to everyone. Why do we need this kind of RNG?

First, a disclaimer: I'm not saying RNG-based RPGs should apply realism or the way things work in real life. However, it's a form of simulation of how things work. I remembered someone talked about this in a more proper and eloquent manner, but I forgot who, where, and what he said. But my points aren't about realism.

Now, think about how, in real life, even if you're a master on doing something, just somehow there came the day, one of those *days*, where you just slipped and made a mistake. That's what the 5% TMC (to-miss-chance) all about.

Now, if we're talking about how to make even those moments 'fun', that's an entirely different topic. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the loss of critical failure mechanics is one of the greatest loss of the art of role-playing games. Parts of what makes failing 'fun' in Fallout 1&2, if only somewhat, was because it has a quite pronounced critical failure mechanic, along with a primary stat to quantify it (somewhat) and a trait and perks to go along with it. Hell, the critical failure mechanic affect not only combat, but also non-combat instances such as when lockpicking and hacking, which was actually quite fun, provided you aren't a perfectionist who wants to lockpick all the locked doors and containers no matter what.
Arcanum also has critical failure mechanic, but it doesn't have a LCK stat to quantify it and therefore didn't felt as fun because you can't somehow tilt the odds in your favor like you could with Fallout.

Anyway, bros,

What do you guys think? He said to ditch Aimed Shot and Snipe because they don't synergize at all with Elemental Bolts.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Now, think about how, in real life, even if you're a master on doing something, just somehow there came the day, one of those *days*, where you just slipped and made a mistake. That's what the 5% TMC (to-miss-chance) all about.

I know that argument. I also know that there are certain people and situations when mistake is possible, but not with 5% - something like 0.01%.

I mean, put a stunned guy in front of professional boxer and think how high are the chances that boxer will miss the guy.

 

[Black Angel]

Now, think about how, in real life, even if you're a master on doing something, just somehow there came the day, one of those *days*, where you just slipped and made a mistake. That's what the 5% TMC (to-miss-chance) all about.

I know that argument. I also know that there are certain people and situations when mistake is possible, but not with 5% - something like 0.01%.

I mean, put a stunned guy in front of professional boxer and think how high are the chances that boxer will miss the guy.

Yeah, and the numbers at the end of the day really doesn't matter, since it's all up to the devs on what works and what doesn't. What truly matters, however, is that what happens, happens.

Though tbh it's actually been a LONG while since I played RNG-based games. Real-life has been taking my time away, and now I'm currently sick, so I can't play these kinds of games and obviously I don't know how often you're playing these games to consistently experience missing a 95% THC against a stunned enemy.

 

[Sheepherder]

What do you guys think? He said to ditch Aimed Shot and Snipe because they don't synergize at all with Elemental Bolts.

Aimed shot doesn't work with Elemental Bolts, but Sharpshooter, which requires Aimed Shot, is a must. It's a great alpha strike feat, as with specced CP that 30% turns into 90%. Also, Aimed Shot is good for early game, when elemental bots deal meh damage, crit chance is still low-ish and most enemies don't have high mechanical DR/DT. It immediately becomes redundant past lvl14, when Elemental Bolts feat becomes available.

Snipe is pointless for Elemental Bolts.

 

[Yaz]

Deterministic... you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Was talking about full determinism. That's why I was always highlighting the word. Not that I am desperate to prove a point there but the Rook can both be an mvp or sacked/traded. It's the random human element that makes the game exciting, imo. I probably don't have the time to check that game you pointed out but if it's deterministic it should take the Star Craft route in terms of resource placement on the map. Out of curiosity - does it do that?

 

[Tigranes]

Yo, I played a Metathermics only psi build on Dominating a while back and made a video about it and a thread on the official forum.
Remember, Pyrokinetic Stream? That shitty psi ability that eats up all your psi points and AP? It's actually quite good on a solo-school psi build, reaches ~1.4k damage per cast for 35 AP and ~60 psi points, twice a turn. Needs quite some work to make work tho.

The thread. Mostly about how to make the thing work without leaving the build stuck with no AP: https://stygiansoftware.com/forums/index.php?&topic=6155.0

I am discovering that Stream is quite useful even on my Psi crit Dom build that doesn't take most of the stuff to optimise Stream. But as you mention at the end, big robots and Expedition seems like a real pain for a Stream specialist?

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

I was just thinking to myself how the game's writing is extremely underrated, when this happened; I'd already pickpocketed a key from this guy before asking for it.

Underrail is arguably THE best-written RPG. It has multiple Avellone-style characters (Todd, Ferryman, Yngwar), Fallout-style rudeness, reactivity, no-nonsense stuff like Jeff Vogel writes, and more.
Kotor2 and Planescape may have better writing in a vacuum but a lot of it is lore, or other more abstract stuff, all of Underrail's writing is well-integrated into the actual game. Maybe it's just that I haven't played Planescape for 7 years or something like that.

 

[Tigranes]

You seem to be getting milk all over your pants there, Bingboy.

Underrail's best moments in writing I always felt had more commonalities with AOD than the stylistic differences would suggest. Both Styg & VD, in very different ways, are very good at saying - what kind of writing does this particular situation actually call for? They're not mindlessly copypasting genre norms no matter how stupid they are. And they're not super concerned with actively subverting them and breaking fourth wall cleverly (i.e. Early Avellone) or chasing some misguided, literal definition of "realism". They're just concerned about actually writing what's right for the situation and thinking that through.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

Also I'm pretty sure I once sang whatever church music was chopped up and modulated into the Tchort Institute soundtrack.

 

[Fenix]

Is Underrail possible (recommended) on normal difficulty if I jump blind or reading all traits, skills and recipes requirements beforehand is a must?

Play Norma till you feel it's too easy, theb stat Hard - it x2 more interesting then Normal.

 

[Latelistener]

What's going on with the game anyway? I've been absent from the thread for some time.

I remember wanting to replay the game with a PSI build, but then I noticed that there was a PSI update, which caused some butthurt on Steam. Was PSI nerfed too much?

I'm also a bit concerned about buying the DLC. I really wanted an extension of an abrupt ending, but this just adds something in the middle of an already gigantic game. I've spend 300 hours during my first walkthrough and now with the DLC I feel like I'm kinda too old for this.

Also, did anyone make a mod that brings back the old font?

 

[Tigranes]

No. Psi now requires you to "memorise" a set number of spells to cast them (# INT-dependent), and then after you psi for a while your psi bottoms out and you gotta eat some other magic potion to refill. That's really it. I don't think it's super great, but in practice psi still remains veyr powerful and flexible.

DLC adds a new Psi school, spears, shotguns and stuff like that into the base game, and you can ignore DLC content if you want. Given the original game was ten dollars, honestly, I'd just pay for it. In general, time spent hohumming is more wasteful than a cheap DLC for a cheap game you already enjoyed for 300 hours.

 

[ItsChon]

Underrail is arguably THE best-written RPG. It has multiple Avellone-style characters (Todd, Ferryman, Yngwar), Fallout-style rudeness, reactivity, no-nonsense stuff like Jeff Vogel writes, and more.
Kotor2 and Planescape may have better writing in a vacuum but a lot of it is lore, or other more abstract stuff, all of Underrail's writing is well-integrated into the actual game. Maybe it's just that I haven't played Planescape for 7 years or something like that.

I've been saying that forever now.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Was PSI nerfed too much?

It's been made more Vancian with spell slots, memorization innervation and mana inhalers.

I'm also a bit concerned about buying the DLC.

Most of that is strictly opt-in and cordoned off. Still worth it for the stuff it cycles into the basegame, temporal manipulation and shotguns are great among other things.

 

[Rafidur]

Was PSI nerfed too much?

Tranquillity is dead but unga bunga crits are still doing fine.

 

[Trashos]

On the topic of determinsim, I would suggest that they add one deterministic weapon (goes up to 100% accuracy, fixed damage, no crits -maybe some exotic energy weapon) and see how it goes, but I suspect that they have thought about this already and for whatever reason didn't follow it through.

Latelistener, plus the dlc is very good content.

 

[Yaz]

On the topic of determinsim, I would suggest that they add one deterministic weapon (goes up to 100% accuracy, fixed damage, no crits -maybe some exotic energy weapon) and see how it goes

Rail-gun. Has a two step reload phase where you have to place a new slug and recharge the gun with batteries. Fires only once per reload. Deals high Mechanical and some Heat damage since real Rail-guns ignite the air with their projectile. Big move and shoot penalty. 100% Accuracy when stationary on any target within range. Can shoot through walls but needs a special head gear which doesn't provide any other bonuses and it also loses the 100% Accuracy.

 

[Black Angel]

On the topic of determinsim, I would suggest that they add one deterministic weapon (goes up to 100% accuracy, fixed damage, no crits -maybe some exotic energy weapon) and see how it goes, but I suspect that they have thought about this already and for whatever reason didn't follow it through.

Just do it like AoD and allow it to go all the way up to 99% with still 1% chance to miss to spice things up. And/or even adds items that allows for 100% THC like bolas to the head, or drugs like Focus Stim but for THC with some severe withdrawal effect/high crafting skill requirement/extremely rare blueprints, ingredients, and availability etc etc.

 

[Trashos]

I think that such a gun is not about spicing things up. It is about painstakingly preplanning all our APs and MPs down to the last detail. The "spicing up" is going to come from when not meeting ideal conditions.

Has a two step reload phase where you have to place a new slug and recharge the gun with batteries. Fires only once per reload. Deals high Mechanical and some Heat damage since real Rail-guns ignite the air with their projectile.

Afaic, it should be low AP (DEX influenced)/low damage. I picture it as a legit primary weapon.

Not keen on the big move penalty. All this gun has going for it is its determinism, we should be careful about stripping that. If it does not have enough damage to take out the enemies (after the grenade, for example), then the player will obviously have to move. I would like it to play like the gun that it is in the following rounds too, unless we accept that the player will also need a different weapon in the other hand (but I do not think that this will be a good thing for the fun in the build).

Here is how I picture the fights to go with it:

See enemies. Check whether you can approach at optimal distance, whether you have enough damage to take them all down on 1st turn under ideal conditions, and whether you have enough MP to reach ideal conditions for all enemies in turn. If not, consider grenade and partial retreat plan or setting up far away and making them come at you. Throw grenade. Recalculate. If not enough damage, move back for plan B.

Sth like that.

 

[Serus]

Basics are necessary, unless one wants to discover the meaning of armor penalty or fixed number of APs already during the run.

I said it before and I will say it again: Underrail needs a manual, like Fallout or Arcanum did, shipped as PDF alongside the copy of the game.

What? Did you mean that Fallout 1 and 2 NEEDED a manual? I finished them on a pirated (Potato in the 90s) copy with zero spoilers and with mediocre knowledge of English. I'm not boasting, all the people I know played them like that. Those are very good games but they are on the easy side to be honest. If you didn't meant that then I am sorry for the rant.
Maybe I am too old school but I certainly don't feel that in the Internet age Underrail needs a manual. But it could give them a few additional sales I suppose.
OTOH, it's maybe better for most Codexers when indie studio NOT try to get any additional sales thanks to better accessibility of their games. That leads to hate stopping being ambitious indie studio - which leads to the dark side making mediocre games for casuals.

 

[Ol' Willy]

in the Internet age Underrail

That's the problem. Once you open up the wiki, the temptation to look up more info is too strong, which may lead to overload of meta. For some, that's a problem.