Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[PrK]

NV goggles are nothing compared to the cloaking device, now that thing is truly annoying to use in real time.

I'm not sure, with a decent Field Stabilizer you can get very good mileage:

Spoiler

NV Goggles can't get more efficient and in contrast to the cloaking device they don't have mere situational use. Builds that don't rely on them are automatically that bit less annoying I feel.

 

[Decado]

So even with the patch changes to firearm pistols that dropped in February, I get the sense they are still not a viable, stand-alone weapon. You need traps and/or psi abilities. Unless I'm doing this wrong.

 

[CHEMS]

So even with the patch changes to firearm pistols that dropped in February, I get the sense they are still not a viable, stand-alone weapon. You need traps and/or psi abilities. Unless I'm doing this wrong.

Pistol build start to get good around level 20. Having temporal manipulation is good, but not necessary

 

[Decado]

So even with the patch changes to firearm pistols that dropped in February, I get the sense they are still not a viable, stand-alone weapon. You need traps and/or psi abilities. Unless I'm doing this wrong.

Pistol build start to get good around level 20. Having temporal manipulation is good, but not necessary

What makes them more viable at 20 than in earlier levels? Just curious.

 

[CHEMS]

What makes them more viable at 20 than in earlier levels? Just curious.

If you're running a versatility build, by level 20 you'll be doing good damage with good accuracy, shooting several times a turn. If you use smart weapons, you should have several special attacks like kneecap shot, point shot, rapid fire and execute. And of course, a decent crafted pistol.

My SI Versatility pistolero would do an average 200 damage shot with the 5mm silenced smart neoluger.

 

[toro]

So even with the patch changes to firearm pistols that dropped in February, I get the sense they are still not a viable, stand-alone weapon. You need traps and/or psi abilities. Unless I'm doing this wrong.

They work on Normal. On Hard you need support skills. On Dominating is all about support skills like grenades, traps, caltrops and buffs.

 

[Blaine]

So even with the patch changes to firearm pistols that dropped in February, I get the sense they are still not a viable, stand-alone weapon. You need traps and/or psi abilities. Unless I'm doing this wrong.

The game was designed to require powerful utilities. Not even pre-nerf assault rifles could stand on their own. From the Stygian Software website:

More specifically, the game mechanics revolve heavily around cooldowns. This was nearly inevitable, because it's not a party-based game, and combats end up being one vs. many. This is also why offense is always the best defense, particularly at higher difficulties.

"Game mechanics that rely on cooldowns" and "non-party-based" are two fairly legitimate criticisms of Underrail, from certain points of view. All choices are accompanied by both upsides and downsides, and the lone gunman approach isn't without its downsides.

 

[Grunker]

So even with the patch changes to firearm pistols that dropped in February, I get the sense they are still not a viable, stand-alone weapon. You need traps and/or psi abilities. Unless I'm doing this wrong.

The game was designed to require powerful utilities. Not even pre-nerf assault rifles could stand on their own. From the Stygian Software website:

View attachment 18573

More specifically, the game mechanics revolve heavily around cooldowns. This was nearly inevitable, because it's not a party-based game, and combats end up being one vs. many. This is also why offense is always the best defense, particularly at higher difficulties.

"Game mechanics that rely on cooldowns" and "non-party-based" are two fairly legitimate criticisms of Underrail, from certain points of view. All choices are accompanied by both upsides and downsides, and the lone gunman approach isn't without its downsides.

I kind of like this design though. The thing for me - at least before the patch - was that *as a weapon skill*, even with other skills on top, mechanical pistols felt very weak to me compared to other firearms. And it sounds like they still aren't nearly as good as other choices. I don't really care about their relative quality though. If they're at least somewhat better than before the patch, I think that's gonna be enough for me.

 

[Sheepherder]

So even with the patch changes to firearm pistols that dropped in February, I get the sense they are still not a viable, stand-alone weapon. You need traps and/or psi abilities. Unless I'm doing this wrong.

Pistol builds go from decent to good, once you get access to Rapid Reloaders - realistically, post Depot A. Once you get Spec points, they go bananas. They're great standalone.
I recommend you make a crit build, with SI, high DEX or make a special attack bonus damage build. They also work very well with Versatility.

TM is recommended, but not mandatory. Nades are not needed, maybe use flashbangs for CC.

 

[Blaine]

I kind of like this design though. The thing for me - at least before the patch - was that *as a weapon skill*, even with other skills on top, mechanical firearms felt very weak to me compared to other firearms. And it sounds like they still aren't nearly as good as other choices. I don't really care about their relative quality though. If they're at least somewhat better than before the patch, I think that's gonna be enough for me.

I've never felt that way. Assault rifles are extremely powerful. SMGs are the low-STR, DEX-affected version of ARs. I've been using SMGs during my current playthrough, and they're quite stronk with high Stealth, Commando, Spec Ops, and of course lots of grenades. I even have Sure Step so that I can drop crawler poison caltrops with absolutely no worry whatsoever.

Mechanical pistols were always more-or-less intended to be sidearms, which makes sense, considering that pistols are sidearms. Feats and buffs added later have elevated them, not to mention Temporal Manipulation, the min-maxer's best friend.

Sniper rifles... are stronk, but I have yet to complete a playthrough with them. Bad luck hits you too damn hard, and there are too many times when you're dumped into a tiny box full of gankers. Being denied long-range engagement on a regular basis does not endear me to a long-range, all-or-nothing weapon.

Crossbows felt very weak to me during my Crossbow/Traps playthrough. That was before v1.0, let alone Expedition and the techniques people developed of using Ambush and lots of crit feats and specialization points to essentially turn it into an arrow wizard.

I've done a sledgehammer tin can and a spear riot armor playthrough. They were, on the whole, more challenging to use than mechanical firearms.

This game's meta has become all about piling on crit feats to deal absurd damage, which annoys me, but oh well.

 

[Decado]

Several people have mentioned Versatility . . . I don't understand the appeal. This game does not appear to reward spreading your damage types out. Under what circumstances is Versatility useful?

If I have only dumped points into guns, I would see no benefit to taking Versatility, correct?

 

[Grunker]

I kind of like this design though. The thing for me - at least before the patch - was that *as a weapon skill*, even with other skills on top, mechanical firearms felt very weak to me compared to other firearms. And it sounds like they still aren't nearly as good as other choices. I don't really care about their relative quality though. If they're at least somewhat better than before the patch, I think that's gonna be enough for me.

I've never felt that way. Assault rifles are extremely powerful. SMGs are the low-STR, DEX-affected version of ARs. I've been using SMGs during my current playthrough, and they're quite stronk with high Stealth, Commando, Spec Ops, and of course lots of grenades. I even have Sure Step so that I can drop crawler poison caltrops with absolutely no worry whatsoever.

Mechanical pistols were always more-or-less intended to be sidearms, which makes sense, considering that pistols are sidearms. Feats and buffs added later have elevated them, not to mention Temporal Manipulation, the min-maxer's best friend.

Sniper rifles... are stronk, but I have yet to complete a playthrough with them. Bad luck hits you too damn hard, and there are too many times when you're dumped into a tiny box full of gankers. Being denied long-range engagement on a regular basis does not endear me to a long-range, all-or-nothing weapon.

Crossbows felt very weak to me during my Crossbow/Traps playthrough. That was before v1.0, let alone Expedition and the techniques people developed of using Ambush and lots of crit feats and specialization points to essentially turn it into an arrow wizard.

I've done a sledgehammer tin can and a spear riot armor playthrough. They were, on the whole, more challenging to use than mechanical firearms.

This game's meta has become all about piling on crit feats to deal absurd damage, which annoys me, but oh well.

doh, i wrote “mechanical firearms” instead of “mechanical pistols”. Sorry for wasting your time writing that long response to something else

 

[Metronome]

Several people have mentioned Versatility . . . I don't understand the appeal.

You see Ivan, when you are stronk like me, you do not need to do the aimings.

Bullet goes straight to target for respect of big muscles.

 

[Grunker]

Several people have mentioned Versatility . . . I don't understand the appeal. This game does not appear to reward spreading your damage types out. Under what circumstances is Versatility useful?

If I have only dumped points into guns, I would see no benefit to taking Versatility, correct?

As I understand it, the point is that it allows you to dump stats - like Per, for instance, since you don’t need it because your ranged weapon skill is brought up by your Maxed melee skills which relies on Strength

 

[CHEMS]

Several people have mentioned Versatility . . . I don't understand the appeal. This game does not appear to reward spreading your damage types out. Under what circumstances is Versatility useful?

If I have only dumped points into guns, I would see no benefit to taking Versatility, correct?

It allows you to draw skill points from dexterity instead of perception. High dexterity means less ap for light firearms like pistols. So you'll max melee and those skill points go to guns and xbows. You'll be able to fire a neoluger for 4 ap, if it's a crit build you'll be dishing hundreds of damage per shot. If it's a energy versatility crit build, you'll dish around 600 with the laser, at least.

 

[CHEMS]

This game's meta has become all about piling on crit feats to deal absurd damage, which annoys me, but oh well.

Expertise SMGs are nice. You won't need crits but you'll burn ammo like there's no tomorrow. Never took it to DC though.

 

[Blaine]

Expertise SMGs are nice. You won't need crits but you'll burn ammo like there's no tomorrow. Never took it to DC though.

Yes, Expertise SMG is what I'm running now. When I came upon my first real tin can (one of the muggers south of Foundry), I slapped some W2C ammo in and killed him in two bursts.

Long ago, pre-v1.0, when I was playing Traps/Crossbows—most likely on Oddity as well—I had to sneak past those same muggers because he was near-impossible to kill. That was on Normal difficulty, mind you.

Crossbows have since been "buffed" so that arrow wizard is a viable build, but if I wanted to play a wizard I'd just play a psi user... or rather, I would if psi hadn't been nerfed in an especially obnoxious way.

___________________________________________________________________​

While I'm here, another issue with the harebrained repair kit nerf has occurred to me: The small handfuls of scraps found as loot are just as small as they were before the recipe costs were doubled, halving their value. Also, after nine or ten playthroughs of Underrail, I can safely say that you can count the number of complete repair kits you'll find as loot during a whole playthrough on two hands at most, possibly even one hand.

Furthermore, it's now nonsensical for spare parts vendors to purchase repair kits, because there is never any reason to sell them except to flush money down the toilet. Additionally, that's the primary thing that those vendors purchase.

The weight increase is very fair. If anything, a substantial kit of tools and material would weigh at least one or two pounds. That is the only fair, sensible, or reasonable part of the nerf. Everything else about it indicates hastiness, arbitrariness, and a failure to actually rethink anything properly before implementing a knee-jerk solution.

 

[CHEMS]

Crossbows have since been "buffed" so that arrow wizard is a viable build, but if I wanted to play a wizard I'd just play a psi user... or rather, I would if psi hadn't been nerfed in an especially obnoxious way.

Xbows are amazing. A crit from a MKII elemental shock bolt with critical power hits like a fucking truck and deals heavy damage to nearby enemies. Not very good for open confrontations, though. Running xbows requires you to be a sneaky character.

Furthermore, it's now nonsensical for spare parts vendors to purchase repair kits, because there is never any reason to sell them except to flush money down the toilet. Additionally, that's the primary thing that those vendors purchase.

I'm playing on hard and i'm amazed seeing how easy money can be made on this difficulty. You can actually make money crafting shit. Selling for profit and buying components after you take all the shekels from the vendors. I have a fully upgraded house with the security systems and everything. I have three custom jets too. On dominating you're constantly cucked financially, it's ridiculous.

 

[Blaine]

I'm playing on hard and i'm amazed seeing how easy money can be made on this difficulty. You can actually make money crafting shit. Selling for profit and buying components after you take all the shekels from the vendors. I have a fully upgraded house with the security systems and everything. I have three custom jets too. On dominating you're constantly cucked financially, it's ridiculous.

I have no complaint about earning money per se. I've got over 10k charons saved already at level 16 (Hard Classic), and have long since passed the point where I might find myself unable to purchase any needful crafting component, consumable, or ammunition. Jet skis cost half of what they once did, and house decorations can be bought as whim dictates.

Furthermore, I am able to repair every single piece of loot with a non-trivial value to its full durability (or close enough; no sense in being wasteful) as well as my own gear with absolutely no problem whatsoever.

My complaint is that recycling and repair are now shitty, unsatisfying, and fucking dumb. The system was designed to work properly the way it was originally conceived. Styg cut its balls off arbitrarily in the most obviously hack-and-slash way possible, and what's left is clearly an empty ballsack. At the very utmost, it may make the beginning of a Dominating playthrough slightly more difficult.

 

[Twiglard]

Furthermore, it's now nonsensical for spare parts vendors to purchase repair kits, because there is never any reason to sell them except to flush money down the toilet. Additionally, that's the primary thing that those vendors purchase.

No. Buy electronic repair kits in addition to taking all of given vendor's cash. Sell them when you can't gain another vendor's cash any other way. Similar to buying ammo to sell to a vendor that doesn't buy anything expensive.

 

[jackofshadows]

Sniper rifles... are stronk, but I have yet to complete a playthrough with them. Bad luck hits you too damn hard, and there are too many times when you're dumped into a tiny box full of gankers. Being denied long-range engagement on a regular basis does not endear me to a long-range, all-or-nothing weapon.

I used shotguns as a support wep all my playthrough starting with the shoddy one, they're incredibly strong even w/o any invested perks not to mention usefulness vs groups of small enemies like burrower's spawns. You can save strafe investment as well i.e. always open fight with your sniper rifle and then switch to shotgun & kite. Later in the game (~25+ lvl) you'd be one-shotting everything anyway and the distance won't matter. So it's all about getting there with shotgun's help and other support stuff at the beginning.

 

[Savecummer]

Not even pre-nerf assault rifles could stand on their own.

Lolwat, alzheimers getting to you, pre nerf there wasnt even DOM...

 

[Ghulgothas]

I hope they add a little convenience feature either in a patch or Infusion to let you buy ammo in clips rather than just per-bullet. Would save on time spent microcalculating.

 

[Ol' Willy]

I hope they add a little convenience feature either in a patch or Infusion to let you buy ammo in clips rather than just per-bullet. Would save on time spent microcalculating.

Or better, actual magazine management aka JA2 or ArmA series

 

[Blaine]

Not even pre-nerf assault rifles could stand on their own.

Lolwat, alzheimers getting to you, pre nerf there wasnt even DOM...

You still needed grenades as an AR tin can. Lacking stealth, you can't really control the commencement of hostilities; Crippling Strikers (100% of knife-wielding NPCs in the game have that feat), lurking stealth guys, crawlers, psi users, and other such nuisances would be far too aggravating to deal with in the absence of flashbangs and pineapples, even if you technically could kill everything with the AR.

No. Buy electronic repair kits in addition to taking all of given vendor's cash. Sell them when you can't gain another vendor's cash any other way. Similar to buying ammo to sell to a vendor that doesn't buy anything expensive.

I'm well aware of this strategy, and it works, but I feel it's too wasteful of loot value (on Hard+, anyway) to be worthwhile when it will only increase my total "merchant circuit" take by perhaps 10-15%.

Granted, I still have a large pile of loot. Perhaps I should ramp up these Pyrrhic barter swaps in an effort to get rid of all of it.