Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[CHEMS]

I'm afraid you're clearing it up for me second time, the first one was after my similiar rant several months ago. Damn memory. Yes, essential problem is that enemies are 'fixating on you' so kiting becomes much less effective or outright useless if you're not breaking LoS. The only solution is to use vanishing powder in order to reset their 'fixation' which exactly what I will do next time I'm gonna fight them. Still, the situation remains ridiculous to me tbh.

I usually use the powder to get away from combat, but never though about using it to make them target someone else. Gonna try it, i have a good amount of stealth to pull it off.

 

[Blaine]

The LoS inequity is unfortunate, yes. The player should have the same sight range potential as NPCs—especially since sniper rifles are supposed to be able to fire up to 20 tiles away. It's obnoxious that only enemies can take advantage of that. Well, yet another reason to avoid a sniper playthrough. It's bad enough that you're crammed into cramped rooms and tunnels half the time, or dropped into scripted killboxes, but not even being able to see anywhere near the weapon's max range is the icing on the cake.

Actually, it would be neat if sight range were modified by PER. Say, 10 tiles baseline at 4-5 PER; -1 to baseline at 3 PER; +1 tile per step at 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 PER (so you'd be up to 15 tiles at 10 PER); and +1 tile per two steps at 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. Hence, with 20 effective PER, you could see (and shoot) 20 tiles away.

I realize that enemies need to be able to cheat to some extent because they're AI, but a hard-coded inequity as fundamental as sight lines is a little much. It even encourages LoS abuse.

In fact, the nerf to zone exit abuse (it used to be possible to exit a map and then return with your shit refreshed and recharged, but the enemies still injured and etc.) is also annoying, because once you're in combat, you're trapped on that map until it's resolved, which is gay. Retreat should be a viable option, and games shouldn't always be balanced around exploiters.

 

[Whisper]

->We're rolling out a new content update. It's going to be a somewhat weird update because the main bulk of the content is centered around something that is not part of a mainstream playthrough. We added an interesting adventure and resolution to players who get... genetically compromised during their time in Underrail. Where and how is for you guys to find out (it does require the Expedition DLC though).

What this means?

During the "Gas The Drones" quest you can get accidentally infected with mutagen and turned into a mutant. In fact the quest is mostly about avoiding that. This probably introduces some content for players who get infected.
Since it requires expedition it probably has something to do with the mutant camp on the Black Sea.

Anyone tried already? How much content is added?

 

[Tygrende]

->We're rolling out a new content update. It's going to be a somewhat weird update because the main bulk of the content is centered around something that is not part of a mainstream playthrough. We added an interesting adventure and resolution to players who get... genetically compromised during their time in Underrail. Where and how is for you guys to find out (it does require the Expedition DLC though).

What this means?

During the "Gas The Drones" quest you can get accidentally infected with mutagen and turned into a mutant. In fact the quest is mostly about avoiding that. This probably introduces some content for players who get infected.
Since it requires expedition it probably has something to do with the mutant camp on the Black Sea.

Anyone tried already? How much content is added?

One quite big questline that results in a unique ending. Pretty hard, too.

 

[CHEMS]

So i'm doing a punching build... maxing evasion and dodge, but i see there's a soft cap at 40% chance to get hit still? Heard that there's a way to bypass the cap to 10%, but how?

 

[Blaine]

So i'm doing a punching build... maxing evasion and dodge, but i see there's a soft cap at 40% chance to get hit still? Heard that there's a way to bypass the cap to 10%, but how?

Evasion can lower chance to hit down to 40% if evasion rating is twice the attacker's effective attack skill. Other factors in ranged combat can further lower hit chance down to 10%.

I would guess that super-optimal range, long distances, and lighting conditions—factors beyond a skill-to-skill comparison in vacuum—could reduce the to-hit below 40%. No doubt that's why it's capped at 40% in the absence of those conditions; and in theory, bullets are harder to dodge than knives and shit.

Dodge can lower chance to hit down to 10% if dodge rating is thrice the attacker's effective attack skill.

See, this is why I don't like Evasion and Dodge. That isn't going to happen versus the game's most difficult melee opponents, or even just non-trash opponents (and it very much depends on your character level, like many other things). What will happen is more like this, somewhere around the middle of the table:

It's a coin-flip defense. The coin gains a third side if you wear infused siphoner shit, take Nimble, etc. Yes, it works, and yes it is far better than nothing, but super-high Evasion/Dodge builds generally can't afford to gamble on being hit even at something like a 30% chance.

It's like the sniper rifle problem for the player (can't afford to miss), only in reverse. And Dodge and Evasion are defense-oriented when overwhelming offense is the better way to go. Granted, being able to weather some fire can allow you to dish out more offense, but I don't consider gambling to be a worthwhile way to do that.

 

[CHEMS]

So i'm doing a punching build... maxing evasion and dodge, but i see there's a soft cap at 40% chance to get hit still? Heard that there's a way to bypass the cap to 10%, but how?

Evasion can lower chance to hit down to 40% if evasion rating is twice the attacker's effective attack skill. Other factors in ranged combat can further lower hit chance down to 10%.

I would guess that super-optimal range, long distances, and lighting conditions—factors beyond a skill-to-skill comparison in vacuum—could reduce the to-hit below 40%. No doubt that's why it's capped at 40% in the absence of those conditions; and in theory, bullets are harder to dodge than knives and shit.

Dodge can lower chance to hit down to 10% if dodge rating is thrice the attacker's effective attack skill.

See, this is why I don't like Evasion and Dodge. That isn't going to happen versus the game's most difficult melee opponents, or even just non-trash opponents (and it very much depends on your character level, like many other things). What will happen is more like this, somewhere around the middle of the table:

It's a coin-flip defense. The coin gains a third side if you wear infused siphoner shit, take Nimble, etc. Yes, it works, and yes it is far better than nothing, but super-high Evasion/Dodge builds generally can't afford to gamble on being hit even at something like a 30% chance.

It's like the sniper rifle problem for the player (can't afford to miss), only in reverse. And Dodge and Evasion are defense-oriented when overwhelming offense is the better way to go. Granted, being able to weather some fire can allow you to dish out more offense, but I don't consider gambling to be a worthwhile way to do that.

Thanks man, can i have this calculator?

Ironically, i think the game is easier with this build. I'm spreading paralysis like there was no tomorrow. I'm at the Arena, won every initiative roll, even against Carnifex, though i'm fighting him right now.

Edit: he's been fistfucked to death

 

[Blaine]

Thanks man, can i have this calculator?

Ironically, i think the game is easier with this build. I'm spreading paralysis like there was no tomorrow. I'm at the Arena, won every initiative roll, even against Carnifex, though i'm fighting him right now.

Edit: he's been fistfucked to death

https://underrail.info/junk/precision.html

The game inevitably becomes easy with any good build, especially for long-time players, except on Dominating, I suppose.

What was his to-hit on you, I wonder? Could load a save and find out.

 

[CHEMS]

What was his to-hit on you, I wonder? Could load a save and find out.

I'd say 70%-ish. He was hitting me quite often, though he no longer could hit me with the throwing net everytime. Took me around 5 tries to kill him, only when my dirty kick connected. Then, expose weakness and punching him with a pneumatic glove i bought from Blaine before Depot A.

except on Dominating

Yeah. 30% buff to their habilities on DOM, don't think evasion would do anything. Worth a try. With siphoner gear you can get very hard to hit. According to my combat stats, my evasion and dodge are 169 at level 13.

 

[Tygrende]

So i'm doing a punching build... maxing evasion and dodge, but i see there's a soft cap at 40% chance to get hit still? Heard that there's a way to bypass the cap to 10%, but how?

The cap is only on evasion and it can be bypassed by any and all means of reducing ranged hit chance other than evasion. Those include:
- standing in the dark
- standing far away from the attacker
- chemhaze grenades
- disruptive field
- precognition

Also it's important to note that evasion has a deterministic component in the form of AoE damage reduction, which can get quite large. Large enough to tank Naga attacks quite easily.

 

[CHEMS]

So i'm doing a punching build... maxing evasion and dodge, but i see there's a soft cap at 40% chance to get hit still? Heard that there's a way to bypass the cap to 10%, but how?

The cap is only on evasion and it can be bypassed by any and all means of reducing ranged hit chance other than evasion. Those include:
- standing in the dark
- standing far away from the attacker
- chemhaze grenades
- disruptive field
- precognition

Also it's important to note that evasion has a deterministic component in the form of AoE damage reduction, which can get quite large. Large enough to tank Naga attacks quite easily.

Thanks. And yeah, AoE seems weaker. I survive waltzin through the mines most of the time. I'd say evasion and dodge builds are fun. Having a blast with this punchy zoner, stronger than i expected.

 

[Blaine]

I suppose I'll have to try a Dodge and Evasion build eventually. How much are you reloading?

I just can't see how reducing enemies' to-hit from 90% to 20-30% is going to change anything when I prefer reducing their to-hit to 0% by virtue of not giving them a chance to attack. I guess the only way to find out is to try it.

On the plus side, movement is extremely powerful in this game, and AGI helps with that.

 

[CHEMS]

I suppose I'll have to try a Dodge and Evasion build eventually. How much are you reloading?

I just can't see how reducing enemies' to-hit from 90% to 20-30% is going to change anything when I prefer reducing their to-hit to 0% by virtue of not giving them a chance to attack. I guess the only way to find out is to try it.

On the plus side, movement is extremely powerful in this game, and AGI helps with that.

Less than i expected, really. I used to shun these skills, but they're actually good IF you build around them. Just so you know: i always cheese the area with the pigs near the SGS with traps. I didn't need this time.

 

[Fenix]

Dodge can be boosted by:
adrenalin
boxing gloves
Deflection

 

[ItsChon]

The way I see it, there are very few builds that can be played with dodge and evasion that can't be played full glass cannon. The only exception I can think of would be a fist or melee build that doesn't mind ending his turn next to a bunch of enemies and relying on his dodge/evasion to keep him safe, which I just can't imagine working in Dominating. I usually just don't spec into them and use the skillpoints for other stuff, minus the points needed for feats.

 

[lukaszek]

I suppose I'll have to try a Dodge and Evasion build eventually. How much are you reloading?

I just can't see how reducing enemies' to-hit from 90% to 20-30% is going to change anything when I prefer reducing their to-hit to 0% by virtue of not giving them a chance to attack. I guess the only way to find out is to try it.

On the plus side, movement is extremely powerful in this game, and AGI helps with that.

remember that you can run it with energy shield. On rare occasion that you would take heavy hit, it will be taken by shield. Regenerative vest works wonders too.
Also it sounds like you never had high agi? Its so nice to sneak around and bypass agi traversal checks

 

[Sheepherder]

I played through the game on dom with a dodge/evasion build. It was a TM only wizard. I'd say it's pretty reliable past depA. However you need to go all out on stacking dodge/evasion for it to be good. My biggest gripe is not the fact that you need to stack dodge/evasion so heavily, but that there's a 10% hardcap on hit chance. So no matter how much you optimize your build, you'll still get hit 10% of the time.

This isn't a big deal for ranged attacks, as a decent shield covered my ass well enough. Melee attacks on the other hand are harder to play around. Uncanny Dodge worked, but I had to play very carefully and make sure I only exposed myself to melee enemies when Uncanny Dodge was active, otherwise I risk getting hit.

Another downside of dodge/evasion, compared to armor, is that disables such as Stun or Incapacitation and certain status effects can completelly negate dodge/evasion. Armor only has to look out for Expose Weakness, and there aren't that many enemies who use it.

Both get wrecked by psi tho

 

[CHEMS]

I played through the game on dom with a dodge/evasion build. It was a TM only wizard. I'd say it's pretty reliable past depA. However you need to go all out on stacking dodge/evasion for it to be good. My biggest gripe is not the fact that you need to stack dodge/evasion so heavily, but that there's a 10% hardcap on hit chance. So no matter how much you optimize your build, you'll still get hit 10% of the time.

This isn't a big deal for ranged attacks, as a decent shield covered my ass well enough. Melee attacks on the other hand are harder to play around. Uncanny Dodge worked, but I had to play very carefully and make sure I only exposed myself to melee enemies when Uncanny Dodge was active, otherwise I risk getting hit.

Another downside of dodge/evasion, compared to armor, is that disables such as Stun or Incapacitation and certain status effects can completelly negate dodge/evasion. Armor only has to look out for Expose Weakness, and there aren't that many enemies who use it.

Both get wrecked by psi tho

I saw your post about this build at the underrail foruns and it was one of the most beautiful things i've ever seen, god damn

 

[jackofshadows]

Played a bit Trudograd, it's so refreshing to just shoot the fuckers from afar with a rifle and watch how they trying to run to you in order to be able use they weapons against you. Satistying.

Yeah, 13 tiles just feels too damn restricting. Still had a lot of fun with a sniper build, just apart from native attacks, the warehouse and some occational enemie sniper one-shots like in shopping mall for instance.

 

[Blaine]

Still had a lot of fun with a sniper build, just apart from native attacks, the warehouse and some occational enemie sniper one-shots like in shopping mall for instance.

Let me tell you what I think of drug-addled natives being able to shoot you from 14 squares away with ribcage crossbows while you—a sharpshooter with a fucking scoped sniper rifle—can't even see them:

IT'S GARBAGE. At this point, the more I think about it, I consider it a significant and fundamental flaw in the game's design.

 

[Twiglard]

At this point, the more I think about it, I consider it a significant and fundamental flaw in the game's design.

It can be fixed by changing a single byte in the executable, if Styg wasn't busy with his retarded nerfs.

 

[CHEMS]

>how does it feel when telekinetic proxy mimics your force emission

 

[Blaine]

normie You're on the fast track to passing just one other individual for being the knuckle-draggingest retard I've ever seen shitting up my Underrail release thread.

I would love to hear you climb out from behind your post ratings and argument-free insults to defend the fact that NPCs can attack from outside the player's sight range while the player is unable to utilize over one-third of the maximum range of sniper rifles—an absurd inequity that I know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, could be remedied simply by setting the maximum range of sniper rifles and crossbows to 13 (which, aside from destructible objects, is the player's effective maximum range). Ideally, of course, the player would be given a proper sight range, or (less optimally) NPCs could be limited to the same sight range as the player.

So either Styg is unable to change a few integers, or else he thinks this setup is a good idea. And that's fucking dumb, quite frankly.

 

[CHEMS]

normie You're on the fast track to passing just one other individual for being the knuckle-draggingest retard I've ever seen shitting up my Underrail release thread.

I would love to hear you climb out from behind your post ratings and argument-free insults to defend the fact that NPCs can attack from outside the player's sight range while the player is unable to utilize over one-third of the maximum range of sniper rifles—an absurd inequity that I know, beyond any shadow of a doubt, could be remedied simply by setting the maximum range of sniper rifles and crossbows to 13 (which, aside from destructible objects, is the player's effective maximum range). Ideally, of course, the player would be given a proper sight range, or (less optimally) NPCs could be limited to the same sight range as the player.

So either Styg is unable to change a few integers, or else he thinks this setup is a good idea. And that's fucking dumb, quite frankly.

doesn't matter, sniper rifle easiest time in my life, get good

I think the lesson there is that your character should evade

woops, I forgot, all your characters are retards who have no ability to get out of the way of projectiles, huh... huh

sucks to be you, BITCH

Dunno... Yahota usually dies like a bitch, though

 

[jackofshadows]

Which Jet Ski do you prefer guys and why? What matters to you the most: its stats according your build or just some other preferences? I like Glow - it looks nice and has some nice balance between speed and stability. But I'm scraching my head again anyway while choosing this time.