Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Parabalus]

because the system is fundamentally broken (not just in UR), and you are constantly overleveled.

Nothing fundamental there - you could say the same about Oddity if all XP rewards were multiplied by two.

 

[Grunker]

then proceed to discuss (or have a history of discussing) metagaming the Oddity system in all the ways I just described.

I believe I am going to end the game less than max level, so that should tell you something about the amounts of metagaming the system I did

EDIT: really this feels like a game you could utterly ruin yourself by turning into a metagame checklist. I'm pretty sure I will have missed a shitton of content of my run (I've had to look up exactly two issues with quests I thought might be bugs - and both times I discovered entire parts of the game I had missed lol), and if I looked everything up before proceeding I can easily imagine this become a game with the game on one screen and 9 reddit/forums/wiki tabs open on the other, and that point you're going through the completion checklist instead of enjoying the game.

Though after suffering through the native attacks and finally finding out how to avoid them (which I discovered by talking to Yahota after killing some natives), I don't necessarily blame people who do this at certain points... at least that is an instance of design I really, really dislike (not so much the fact that the attacks themselves are relentless, but that the method to "solve it" it is so out of whack with everything else in the game. It pulled me out of the experience and actually doing the act didn't feel genocidal or emotionally impactful, it felt video game silly. Everything is fantastically communicated - the draining of camp resources, how close you are to solving the issue, hints for what you need to do. But the lack of options for dealing with it contrasted heavily with the rest of the design and moreover, the option (at least if that's the only one - felt like that to me) itself was, like I said, very video gamey.

Mostly, though, I never really felt frustrated by subpar quest outcomes or from accidentally discovering I missed something.

EDIT2: Solution to making the camp survive, I mean. I realize there are many ways to complete the expansion such as joining different factions etc.

 

[ItsChon]

Though after suffering through the native attacks and finally finding out how to avoid them (which I discovered by talking to Yahota after killing some natives), I don't necessarily blame people who do this at certain points... at least that is an instance of design I really, really dislike (not so much the fact that the attacks themselves are relentless, but that the method to "solve it" it is so out of whack with everything else in the game. It pulled me out of the experience and actually doing the act didn't feel genocidal or emotionally impactful, it felt video game silly. Everything is fantastically communicated - the draining of camp resources, how close you are to solving the issue, hints for what you need to do. But the lack of options for dealing with it contrasted heavily with the rest of the design and moreover, the option (at least if that's the only one - felt like that to me) itself was, like I said, very video gamey.

Yeah I do wish that mechanic was a little better executed, but there is another way of stopping the natives that makes more sense and feels more earned. You just happened to miss it.

 

[Trashos]

Grunker, do you mean that having to attack the natives in order to stop the attacks felt "video game silly"? It is not silly at all, it, it is very real life. And you have a few other options as well (one of which is the obvious, defending the attacks!).

Nothing fundamental there - you could say the same about Oddity if all XP rewards were multiplied by two.

I should clarify that it is "fundamental" to open world games with respawning enemies. I clarify this all the time, and sometimes I just omit it (but you are right, I shouldn't have omitted it). You cannot stop the player from being overleveled in such games when using Classic XP with any reasonable solution.

 

[Grunker]

Though after suffering through the native attacks and finally finding out how to avoid them (which I discovered by talking to Yahota after killing some natives), I don't necessarily blame people who do this at certain points... at least that is an instance of design I really, really dislike (not so much the fact that the attacks themselves are relentless, but that the method to "solve it" it is so out of whack with everything else in the game. It pulled me out of the experience and actually doing the act didn't feel genocidal or emotionally impactful, it felt video game silly. Everything is fantastically communicated - the draining of camp resources, how close you are to solving the issue, hints for what you need to do. But the lack of options for dealing with it contrasted heavily with the rest of the design and moreover, the option (at least if that's the only one - felt like that to me) itself was, like I said, very video gamey.

Yeah I do wish that mechanic was a little better executed, but there is another way of stopping the natives that makes more sense and feels more earned. You just happened to miss it.

Good to hear, then I don't really have any complaints tbh. I don't mind what I did being an option, I was just fairly sure it was the only one. I do mind how that option was executed in practice, however.

It is not silly at all, it, it is very real life.

Right. History is filled with stories about how 1 single person wiped out an entire tribe of souped up insane native warriors wielding shadow magic. If Styg wanted a genocide path, and I can understand why, it fits the theme perfectly, he should have given the player the option to gather weapons, persuade the chief or similarly convince them of a united attack on the native to end them once and for all. Instead of you going there on a random hunch and 1v6000ing them. It also highlights how the game is divided into screens, because if I did what I did in reality, I'm pretty sure they would withdraw to defensive positions and not run into me on a screen base to allow me to kill them small group by small group.

(We can debate the realism of one person doing that all day, the actual execution of it felt very video gamey, going there and ninjadancing your way through hordes of natives. It's further highlighted by the fact that I'm pretty sure you don't have to kill the women - but avoiding doing so isn't a matter of walking past them, it's a matter of dealing with the tedium of pressing end turn and entering-exiting combat constantly after you've killed the warriors.)

 

[Trashos]

Oh, I thought you had trouble with the morality of it. OK then, but it will become apparent eventually that... this is by design. The PC *is* a badass hero character by design, and you 'd better get used to it.

 

[Grunker]

Oh, I thought you had trouble with the morality of it. OK then, but it will become apparent eventually that... this is by design. The PC *is* a badass hero character by design, and you 'd better get used to it.

No she's not, she's a stinking cave dwellin' pipeworker and often gets referred to as such even after insane accomplishments like becoming Invictus. Which is part of what I love about the game, it almost *never* celebrates the PC as a badass except shortly after big accomplishments.

You can't even tell Briggs that you solved the native problem for good (which is kind of fucking weird tbh, you'd think he'd welcome that information). Don't you think a hero narrative would allow you to bask in that glory?

 

[Parabalus]

I should clarify that it is "fundamental" to open world games with respawning enemies. I clarify this all the time, and sometimes I just omit it (but you are right, I shouldn't have omitted it). You cannot stop the player from being overleveled in such games when using Classic XP with any reasonable solution.

Sure you can, UR does this already - XP for killing is scaled to enemy creature level, and the respawning enemies are (pre-DC) not really high level. Rathounds stop giving XP really fast.

Also, you don't really run into respawns often.

 

[Trashos]

Grunker, there are several instances where you don't get the respect your actions deserve by NPCs. That's not even the worst occasion. But that's... how it should be. Probably. Maybe. Ahem.

I was initially disappointed myself about being a fantasy-level hero character, but it is not like we are given a choice. That's why I mentioned it, the earlier you accept it, the better.

Parabalus, they don't give XP at all after a while or they give very little? But it is not just rathounds, it is all sort of creatures and NPCs. And for all builds that can use punches effectively (incl. versatility builds), many enemies will cost from very little to no resources to kill. You can go spend your time killing hoppers with your bare hands, if there are XP there (I haven't played Classic since forever, so I may well get details like that wrong.)

 

[Grunker]

there are several instances where you don't get the respect your actions deserve by NPCs

being a fantasy-level hero character

I'll wait 'till the penny drops

 

[Grunker]

Oh my, Abyssal Station Zero was just marvelous. A little underwhelmed with the level design of this one to be frank, but boy did it compensate with atmosphere. The first time I heard Todd breathing I nearly shit my pants :D

 

[Parabalus]

@Parabalus, they don't give XP at all after a while or they give very little? But it is not just rathounds, it is all sort of creatures and NPCs. And for all builds that can use punches effectively (incl. versatility builds), many enemies will cost from very little to no resources to kill. You can go spend your time killing hoppers with your bare hands, if there are XP there (I haven't played Classic since forever, so I may well get details like that wrong.)

But why would you do that?

Currently Classic is much less of a hassle compared to Oddity, just with normal gameplay - there's no reason to farm XP like in a MMO.

 

[Trashos]

But why would you do that?

Do I need to explain grinding on the Codex? Come on.

Currently Classic is much less of a hassle compared to Oddity, just with normal gameplay - there's no reason to farm XP like in a MMO.

Call it what you will, the system you are using has already overleveled you. Of course it is less hassle, you have been given "free" levels.

 

[Grunker]

If there was a games award category for "most characters being more than they appear" this game would surely be a favorite for first place. I luv it

In general it is quite impressive how many threads tie neatly together. Styg's storyboard must have looked like this

He's still relying on fairly stock tools, with the McGuffin being the primary one, of course. Still, it is dilligent and effective work and shames most RPG story structures

 

[Trashos]

Who did you meet this time?
Yeah, that pic looks just about right to me, too.

Oh my, Abyssal Station Zero was just marvelous. A little underwhelmed with the level design of this one to be frank, but boy did it compensate with atmosphere. The first time I heard Todd breathing I nearly shit my pants :D

Personally, I don't think the Station needed anything/much else. I am glad they didn't put another battle in it. And I don't think it really needed another puzzle either. Yeah, the atmosphere is just awesome. It is also a good time for players to think about the expansion as a whole, for those who are into that kind of thing.

As a matter of fact, I 'd cut down the challenge in the Lemurian Health Center as well. Fewer robots, just to make the point. The place didn't need the combat challenge.

 

[ItsChon]

Seconded, which character?

 

[Grunker]

Seconded, which character?

Post was prompted by finding Lora Baker. Now it seems Tanner is also up to no good, though more than this I don’t know yet.

It was kind of a decent twist for this playthrough especially because I’ve been playing as a staunch South Gater - only reason I sided with Free Drones was to keep SGS out of Protectorate reach, didn’t give a fuck about the Free Drones. Even delivered the Acorn to Tanner.

 

[Grunker]

BTW the free drones must be the most boring Faction in the game - underdescribed, underutilized and nothing about them is unique. Their “philosophy” is completely stock which is a stark contrast to the other factions. The betrayal plot and Kokoschka were the only memorable things about them, and even then, the betrayal didn’t really have any impact because you knew next to nothing about these characters and what you knew certainly wasn’t enough to care. I can’t even remember the betrayer guy’s name even though it was a really hard quest to solve without a guide, so it should be memorable for that reason alone. In fact I can’t remember the name of a single FD character except Kokoschka

 

[ItsChon]

BTW the free drones must be the most boring Faction in the game - underdescribed, underutilized and nothing about them is unique. Their “philosophy” is completely stock which is a stark contrast to the other factions. The betrayal plot and Kokoschka were the only memorable things about them, and even then, the betrayal didn’t really have any impact because you knew next to nothing about these characters and what you knew certainly wasn’t enough to care. I can’t even remember the betrayer guy’s name even though it was a really hard quest to solve without a guide, so it should be memorable for that reason alone. In fact I can’t remember the name of a single FD character except Kokoschka

Hard disagree here. Kokoschka is great of course, but Beckett and his constant comments, hyping you up, is also super memorable. Man is your biggest fan fr. Outside of that, there is another character that stands out as memorable if you go about things a certain way before the Free Drones, and I thought the Bate/Trenton dynamic was pretty memorable as well. Even the bartender, Darlin, is memorable because of how much Kokoschka hypes her up and nice she is. Regardless, there is a definite divide between FD and Protectorate split pretty evenly, so you might enjoy them more.

 

[Grunker]

BTW the free drones must be the most boring Faction in the game - underdescribed, underutilized and nothing about them is unique. Their “philosophy” is completely stock which is a stark contrast to the other factions. The betrayal plot and Kokoschka were the only memorable things about them, and even then, the betrayal didn’t really have any impact because you knew next to nothing about these characters and what you knew certainly wasn’t enough to care. I can’t even remember the betrayer guy’s name even though it was a really hard quest to solve without a guide, so it should be memorable for that reason alone. In fact I can’t remember the name of a single FD character except Kokoschka

Bate/Trenton dynamic

They had a dynamic..?

Compare these guys to Ladelman and Marcus and it should be obvious to everyone how dreadfully boring they are.

But the problem is faction-wide in my opinion. Every other faction in Underrail feels wholly unique to the setting. So much care and detail poured into making them feel part of the cave world, of creating unique twists on their tropes specific to the way Underrail functions as a framework.

Hell, even your basic bitch starting base SGS whose very name shrieks of throwaway base faction has tons of stuff going on and multiple interesting characters with backgrounds that tie in to the broader Caveverse. Even some random paranoid gatekeeper that you do 1 quest for has more personality than the entirety of Free Drones. I hadn't at all planned at making a Dixie gal bent on defending her new family but SGS was just so damned endearing that's what ended up happening, organically.

In contrast, Free Drones are as basic as your freedom fightin' anarchists get. There's no twists, nothing uniquely related to the Underrail setting, nothing to discover and nothing to catch your interest. Besides the spy, the quests are as basic as they get.

 

[Grunker]

Btw question: there is one plot thread I didn't quite catch. When the professor was kidnapped, Briggs' said it was the work of a sec-trooper and Seeger, and my character also implicated Seeger.

Then I went to free the professor (in a Top 5 Persuasion check RPG dialogue of all time, by the way, single-handedly making that skill investment worth it. The only thing I would have wished is that you wouldn't be able to check in with the captain whether the deal was satisfactory, it made the scene less tense), but when we came back, Seeger was just back in business like nothing had happened.

I think it's obvious I just missed something or misunderstood a dialogue screen, so if anyone could elaborate?

 

[ItsChon]

They had a dynamic..?

It was interesting seeing the hyper neurotic Trenton, who people didn't really care for, compared to the much cooler Bate who is friendly and charming right off the bat. When Bate turns out to be the traitor, it's a bit of a disappointment, and it makes you reflect on just how utterly committed Trenton is to the cause that nothing can sway him.

Overall though, I do agree that they are a bit underdeveloped. I just like the Free Drones because of how unique Southern Underrail is compared to the unified North and West, and I'd prefer for the stations to keep their autonomy. Free Drones goes ahead and does this. Also, once you play the Protectorate, you'll get to see a bit of why the Protectorate are so hated. I originally sided with the Protectorate, but after finishing their quest line, I vowed to never play as them again. That's also what makes Protectorate so cool though, and Aegis/Professor expand upon all of this.

Btw question: there is one plot thread I didn't quite catch. When the professor was kidnapped, Briggs' said it was the work of a sec-trooper and Seeger, and my character also implicated Seeger.

Then I went to free the professor (in a Top 5 Persuasion check RPG dialogue of all time, by the way, single-handedly making that skill investment worth it. The only thing I would have wished is that you wouldn't be able to check in with the captain whether the deal was satisfactory, it made the scene less tense), but when we came back, Seeger was just back in business like nothing had happened.

I think it's obvious I just missed something or misunderstood a dialogue screen, so if anyone could elaborate?

I'm pretty sure there is a bit of dialogue that states Seeger is innocent. The person who helps orchestrate the kidnapping is someone specific, and he can actually be identified before the kidnapping starts to prevent the whole thing.

 

[Grunker]

They had a dynamic..?

It was interesting seeing the hyper neurotic Trenton, who people didn't really care for, compared to the much cooler Bate who is friendly and charming right off the bat. When Bate turns out to be the traitor, it's a bit of a disappointment, and it makes you reflect on just how utterly committed Trenton is to the cause that nothing can sway him.

Overall though, I do agree that they are a bit underdeveloped. I just like the Free Drones because of how unique Southern Underrail is compared to the unified North and West

That's exactly why I was disappointed though. The culture Styg has developed for the South is incredible, it's really fun. Everything from their language to their identity to the regional differences within the South itself. And then their freedom fighters are just these copy-paste anarchists, that was disappointing to me.

I'm pretty sure there is a bit of dialogue that states Seeger is innocent. The person who helps orchestrate the kidnapping is someone specific, and he can actually be identified before the kidnapping starts to prevent the whole thing.

Yeah I guessed as much. It's amazing how many problems can be solved earlier if you're aware of them, it's fantastic quest design. I'm reneging a bit on my earlier "good but not great"-description of Underrail quests. I do think some require baaaasically impossible foresight on the player's part though, maybe Styg could have eased it just a tad. For example: the betrayal during Free Drones I didn't uncover until after the last mission, but when I did, it made me go "oh, I could have totally seen this earlier if I paid attention." Other times it feels more like "ok styg nobody would ever think of doing that contextually, you'd only discover this if you're the type of player to just randomly pickpocket everyone all the time for no reason."

I must have missed that line about Seeger. I do know who was responsible (I just can't remember the name), but I got the impression

 

[ItsChon]

That's exactly why I was disappointed though. The culture Styg has developed for the South is incredible, it's really fun. Everything from their language to their identity to the regional differences within the South itself. And then their freedom fighters are just these copy-paste anarchists, that was disappointing to me.

Yeah it's understandable. To be fair, I think a lot of the Free Drones cell are people from North Underrail that have moved down to the South to oppose the Protectorate expansion, but I do think there could have been some more fleshing out for both factions. A non-combat quest a piece for either faction would have done the job well. Combine that with some more varied characters that perhaps referenced the colorful locations and types of Southerners, and the same for the Protectorate but in regards to the North of Underrail. But the game is already pretty massive so I shouldn't complain too much. Plus, the two factions were done earlier in the game, where a lot more of the focus was on the combat. There truly has been a lot of growth from Styg and his team in regards to writing/world-building/etc from when the game first released to now, and the DLC is a good reflection of this. Can only imagine how much better Underrail: Infusion and Underrail 2 will be in this regard.

Yeah I guessed as much. It's amazing how many problems can be solved earlier if you're aware of them, it's fantastic quest design. I'm reneging a bit on my earlier "good but not great"-description of Underrail quests. I do think some require baaaasically impossible foresight on the player's part though, maybe Styg could have eased it just a tad. For example: the betrayal during Free Drones I didn't uncover until after the last mission, but when I did, it made me go "oh, I could have totally seen this earlier if I paid attention." Other times it feels more like "ok styg nobody would ever think of doing that contextually, you'd only discover this if you're the type of player to just randomly pickpocket everyone all the time for no reason."

I must have missed that line about Seeger. I do know who was responsible (I just can't remember the name), but I got the impression

Haha, well the way you'd discover the plant is through pick pocketing, though there is a subtle clue that differentiates the culprit from the rest of the camp which makes it not random. If you're referring to pick pocketing Bate to find out who the Spy is, there is a different way you can figure it out without ever pick pocketing anyone just to note. But yes, there are a some quests that are very difficult to do/require foresight/luck. When you finish the game, we will mention a HUGE example of this, but I think it only adds to said example and the game, versus takes away from it.

 

[Grunker]

No, that's what I meant. With Bate specifically, it is reasonable to expect that someone paying very close attention will be able to pick it up. That was my example of where it is subtle but possible