Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Trashos]

Imagine Six stating our cutting-edge understanding of Physics instead of avoiding answering the question. Do you see how hard and unfair you were on Six? Huh? Do you?
(But yeah, fuck Six! Maybe. I think. I could be wrong.)

Whether the developers have the same version of Physics in mind, we will have to see. The time component apparently checks out. The space... not necessarily.

But my disagreement is here:

it's still kind of disappointing that in a game that treats the main character as an expandable, stinking cave dweller it couldn't help itself in the end.

I think that's part of the charm, and one of the factors that makes the thing work without being too childish! We know for a fact that the condescending treatment that the PC faces is intentional by the developers (there are instances when NPCs downright refuse to give you credit). I believe that the journey from pipeworker to near-god is exactly what was in store for us, that's the journey, and not something that couldn't be helped.

Now, is this contradiction there to make things interesting or is it there to hide the destination? It could be the latter.

 

[Trashos]

Now that I think about it, the problems of Free Will you described fit perfectly with your denial of being a hero-type character (and my initial denial as well). Wow, this game is better than I thought!

 

[ItsChon]

I also liked the expansion and after playing it think the criticism is way overblown - I hated the way you had to deal with the natives because it felt gamey and stupid, and would have much preferred an assault alongside Aegis Sec Troopers, would have made much more sense (someone, I forget who, sorry, said there was an alternative to make the attacks stop besides changing faction and wiping out all the natives single-handedly as I did, but I've searched online after finishing the game and neither the wiki nor any forum threads confirm this - they all claim the only way is to destroy the natives by yourself)

I will spoil it now since you've already finished the game. In one of the Black Sea locations, you can find an operational set of naval mines which can be transported back to the Aegis camp by either the Ferryman for some cash, or by Aegis if you've negotiated safe passage for their laborers with the pirates. The naval mines dot the perimeter of the camp and the natives are unable to continue their assaults.

I do not like time limits in exploration games however, and if anything I'm actually kind of disappointed at how well the expedition managed. I would have loved it if it ended up in freezing death, starvation, cannibalism and exposure of man's hybris, The Terror-style, but alas.

It honestly depends on how the fight goes. Some games you're able to do a great job defending the camp with little casualties, and they even fare very well by themselves. Other games, Aegis troopers are dropping like flies and the camp's status goes completely to shit. Depends on how the rng favors Aegis vs Natives.

My jet ski also felt kind of useless as anything but some pixels underneath my character when I traveled - it was useful for Al Fabeting, certainly, but I never really had to fight anything on it. Fighting serpents you only do if you choose to, and I made peace with the pirates. Perhaps the ski would have seen more action without peaceful pirates.

The pirate quest line has a lot more Jet Ski combat, and ofc if you antagonize the pirates there is a lot more combat in that route as well. Did you ever go through the Abandoned Waterway facility? It's a massive dungeon located in Underrail proper and there are a fair few Jet Ski elements in it.

I was, however, disappointed about the philosophy debates with the ferryman (which I started agonizing over not being able to complete, but then on a hunch used hypercerebrix which allowed me to). This was one of the few details I had heard about before playing the game, and it was a letdown. Perhaps it's because I've studied political science and subsequently read a lot of philosophy myself, but the ferryman's "philosophy" (it's not really a philosophy in the actual sense of the word) is mostly devoid of substantive concepts to discuss. It's mostly metaphors for very basic belief structures - "center", "descent", "origin", "burden", etc., seasoned with some high brow, reactionary luddism and a whole lot of meaningless mumbo jumbo filler. It doesn't hold a candle to something like KotOR2, whose writer actually had a decent understanding of the philosophies he wished to discuss - namely consequentialism, Buddhism, Nietzsche, Machiavelli, Hobbes and anti-altruism. Conversely, the ferryman is not rooted in anything actually interesting and it seems the writer had read less on this subject than other scientific areas, where Underrail shows great proficiency. For example, the ferryman's "philosophy" is in stark contrast to the monoliths and the lore surrounding them. While the concept of an evil black monolith is as stock a cliché as can be found, the nature of Underrail's monoliths are fleshed out enough that their superficial desciption matters little. Their context is based on modern ideas of quantum mechanics and physics and here, the writers demonstrate a knowledge of concepts well beyond the mere basics, to a point where even a fairly happy, dabbling amateur such as myself learned knew things (perhaps too much beyond, as some otherwise interesting dialogue screens can get bogged down in a bit too much technical detail). They should have stuck to the hard science and left the humanities in more capable hands. Well, except when the game discusses history - here, the writers show more aptitude. I did enjoy the one or two 4th wall breaks in the ferryman's philosophy talks though. They were subtle and well done.

With a decent will score, you can actually get visions from the various different monoliths which ties into many of the concepts that the Ferryman is discussing. Of course, the philosophy section isn't as good as the hard science, as from what I know, there are some people on Stygs team with graduate level degrees in different STEM subjects, hence the awesome product.

As someone who's exposure to philosophy is limited to the philosophy of logic which doesn't actually explore specific philosophical ideas, and a course that focused on philosophers like Aristotle, Plato, Descartes, Spinoza, Aquinas, etc, it seemed interesting enough for me. This is especially when you view it in the context of the Ferryman's life, and how his entire world view has been formed by living in Underrail his entire life. There are no history books. There might as well have never been a surface though humans in Underrail seem to know that we did originally come from the surface of our planet. Tie these things in with Trashos' post, and I think you're being a little harsh.

As for the Deep Caverns, I liked the way they were supposed to work - one last, grueling exploration challenge to cap off what Underrail basically is: exactly that. I ended up disliking the utter lack of any player direction though. I don't think *anything* would be lost giving the player just three very short, subtle journal entries containing the three things that must be accomplished. There are a multitude of characters that could believably provide these.

Yeah fair enough, but I've found all my subsequent explorations of the DC have been a lot more enjoyable now that I know where everything is and how to deal with the Eye of Tchort mechanic.

In fact there is only one character I hated. Only one part of Underrail I absolutely loathed. Six. Fucking too-cool-for-school-oh-so-mysterious-writer's-self-insert-Elminster-wannabe-fucking-Six. He is barely a character at all, having no defining features except an extra digit and being the only person in a fantastically open world design that otherwise allows for any outcome to be all-powerful and omnipotent. He never tells you anything of note, and unlike the other unanswered mysteries elsewhere in Underrail, his isn't intriguing in the least, because it is the most vapid, cliché and hackneyed of mysteries: the "Your-Tiny-Human-Brain-Is-Too-Miniscule-To-Comprehend-This"-mystery. It's the excuse for a mystery employed by hack writers everywhere, in contemporary video gaming perhaps most notably seen in Mass Effect, where Sovereign gives an explanation almost verbatum identically to Six' for why he can't possibly tell you what mystery he is a narrative engine for. And as we know from those games, once your mystery is set up to be inexplicable *because the human mind cannot comprehend it*, you are of course left without recourse for further development, because any such development has to be comprehended by an audience that is very human, and more importantly: written by you, presumably a filthy, incapable-of-understanding human as well. Six is an overindulgence. An insipid teenager's power fantasy too juvenile for the mature storytelling it is a part of. Worse, he is utterly useless to the game: he never does anything of consequence, he never tells you anything interesting except Tanner's true nature (which would have been much more interesting told through the same environmental, exploration-based discovery we use to uncover other secrets), his presence in Underrail has no bearing on the plot whatsoever and worst of all: the one time he commits an action that negates the truth of my former sentence, it's the one time the game is guilty of needing a forced plothammer to carry the story along (fortunately, I gave the cube to the Faceless of my own volition and so was mercifully left without experiencing that piece of contrivance for myself). But hey, Grunks, didn't you just say Jack Quicksilver was cool despite almost being a non-character? Yes, but Jack does actual cool stuff, and his nonchalant, mysterious persona is subtle and not force fed to the reader. He is almost the yin to Six' yang: a casual, smooth kool kat who gains his coolness through his actions, rather than just being an omnipotent prick that we are supposed to accept as cool just because the writer told us.

Everyone loves to shit on Six, but I actually liked him. The monoliths are a big part of understanding who/what Six is, and what this mystery that he doesn't tell you about entails. It ties in directly with the black crystals that we see at AS0 as well. But, I can understand not enjoying his character, though it's clear that there is some serious potential for him to be expanded upon in the future games.

As for my conclusion on the experience as a whole, this is definitely a great game⟨™⟩. I'm not sure it's entering my top 10, but it's close. Marvelous setting, fantastic places to explore, solid quest design and a fun narrative. Plot full of daunting mysteries and interesting things to discover and uncover, and the due diligence not to give too many answers, which would surely be less satisfying than the mysteries themselves.

Just curious, what is your top ten?

 

[ItsChon]

The Wit Nosek-quest? It was pretty good, yeah. Dunno if "best ever made." But I loved its conclusion, except Nosek just dying outright. That was maybe a tiny bit contrived.

For me, the quests leading up to Azif were the fantastic ones. The fact that I thought I was doing the Free Drones questline is what the actual reveal so mind-blowing.

We have differing views on this subject as on many others. I think you are completely... derailed on this subject, and I take it as a sign from the Gods above that literally the only thing directly contradicting my perspective is Six, after an entire game awesomelly telling you that you are a filthy no good cavedweller and this ain't your pappas RPG hero story, suddenly negates all of this by stamping the Chosen One moniker that we have been so mercifully spared from for 150 hours of play, on you, right there at the end. I get that it's the whole quantum spacetime determinism thing so at least the excuse is better than it would normally be, but still. Is there anything this character touches that it doesn't ruin?

It is much more concrete and graspable than that. Since Einstein, well before even, fundamental physics has shown that spacetime progresses deterministically, or rather, it doesn't "progress" at all. Basically, if you knew the position, direction and laws governing every single particle in the entire universe, you could theoretically calculate the entire "future" (as indeed there is no such thing - time as it actually exists is an arrow progressing forward). This obviously has dire consequences for the typical perception of free will, whose sole lifebuoy in our current understanding of the universe is the fact that the quantum seems to, at least to an extend, have some component of randomness tied to it - so perhaps your will and the evolution of the universe isn't "free" per se, but maybe if we're "lucky" it cannot be predicted, which is functionally kind of close, since if you can't know future states, what does it matter that your decisions aren't truly decisions - you still don't - or rather, can't - know 'em 'till you've made 'em.

That's what Six is talking about when he mentions "events", "frames" etc. It's "slices" of spacetime that he ascribes with significance, and, initially unbeknownst to him, you play a part in several of these slices. We know the monoliths do not experience the arrow of time like we do - they perceive and can interact with four dimensional spacetime actual - and it seems Six does neither. At least he is capable of viewing spacetime in its actual form to some degree (that is, as their individual slices rather than as the faulty human intuition of an arrow or "flow" of time), which is how he can deduce that the PC is tied to these events once he realizes our connection to current events during Underrail.

So while we may not know "who the PC is" in a banal matter-of-fact kind of way (i.e. the angelic descendant of the originator of all Godmen, destined to bring balance to the force), we know that the PC exists and takes relevant action in chunks of spacetime that Six (and possibly other Godmen) find significant. That's the "chosen" part, and it's all that really matters.

Again, like I said before, as far as Chosen One-roles go this one at least has some oomph to it, but it's still kind of disappointing that in a game that treats the main character as an expandable, stinking cave dweller it couldn't help itself in the end.

I'm also not sure "Styg knows" as you describe it - in fact, I'm kind of hoping that he lets sleeping dogs lie and drops the PC entirely from future Underrail releases. And Six, in'shallah, though I'm guessing his obstinate, recurring presence will mar anything Styg ever releases.

I don't agree with the idea that the game makes you the "chosen one". Was the man who shot Archduke Ferdinand the "chosen one", a harbinger of death and destruction on this world? No, he was just a man, who's actions had wide reaching consequences. Our main character is expandable, but it just so happens that in the course of space-time, he is the person that eliminates Tchort. Conversely, if we were to live in a universe where no one stops Tchort and he conquers the whole world, would that make him the chosen one? No one is chosen, the events of the game are simply what will occur according to space time.

In regards to free will, this is something people use as an argument against the idea of free will assuming that there is an omniscient God. People like to claim that if God knows everything you will do in your life, and he created you, how do you have free will? I'd counter this by saying just because God or in this case, Six, knows what will occur, doesn't mean that we didn't have free will in regards to choosing what we decide to do. If I take a heroin addict and put him in a room filled with heroin, and say if he can stay in said room with all the food and water he will need without shooting up a single needle, I will give him all the riches in the world. He will invariably crack, and I know he is going to crack. That doesn't mean he didn't have a choice in regards to cracking or not.

 

[Kerghnox]

I bought this game a long time ago, I made a boring tanky sledgehammer build. Never ended up finishing it for this reason, any suggestions for an actually fun build?

 

[Spark Mandriller]

I also liked the expansion and after playing it think the criticism is way overblown - I hated the way you had to deal with the natives because it felt gamey and stupid, and would have much preferred an assault alongside Aegis Sec Troopers, would have made much more sense (someone, I forget who, sorry, said there was an alternative to make the attacks stop besides changing faction and wiping out all the natives single-handedly as I did, but I've searched online after finishing the game and neither the wiki nor any forum threads confirm this - they all claim the only way is to destroy the natives by yourself)

I will spoil it now since you've already finished the game. In one of the Black Sea locations, you can find an operational set of naval mines which can be transported back to the Aegis camp by either the Ferryman for some cash, or by Aegis if you've negotiated safe passage for their laborers with the pirates. The naval mines dot the perimeter of the camp and the natives are unable to continue their assaults.

Mines don't stop the attacks. They must do something helpful, but nobody seems to know what. My theory is that they might lower the amount of waves that spawn when the natives attack, but I haven't tested that.
I find the easiest way to stop them attacking is to destroy the rock in their temple. You still need to fight through a few areas to get there though. Or sneak, but that's pretty hard.

 

[Zeem]

Arke, for example, is my absolute worst dungeon in the whole game. (On the other hand, the mushroom forest is one of my favorites!)

I'm the exact opposite. Arke is challenging in a fun way, while shroom forest is a trivial slog. Helps that robots drop batteries and scraps you can use to recharge and repair your gear while shroomlings are purely a drain on resources, and a crit-immune one at that. The forest does have some of the best visuals and music in the game, though, so it's not all that bad.

 

[Grunker]

ItsChon according to the internet, you are wrong about the naval mines. Like other defenses, they only (presumably) hamper enemy waves.

Regarding chosen one status, Six nearly describes you thus outright, and you can respond with literal confirmation as a dialogue option.

Regarding free will, I think you misunderstood. The lack of free will is due to the nature of particle physics being deterministic. Brian Greene explains it in brief here, but there are plenty of other fairly accessible sources at varying degrees of complexity (depending on your familiarity with particle physics) that explain the concept:

https://youtu.be/wSYcUl2TXDc

(note that Tyson is cast as his usual obnoxious obstinate devil’s advocate self, Greene’s perspective is the clear and unequivocal consensus among physicists, as you’ll see if you dive into it yourself - the most ”optimistic“ perspective you’ll encounter is the randomization aspect of the quantum I mentioned - so the Universe might be deterministic but if it is unpredictable because of the very nature of the laws of physics, you could argue it is less relevant.)

As you say it is clear from the writing that Underrail’s development team have a professional understanding of many STEM concepts, including this one.

Regardless, I only mentioned free will as an aside, the point was to highlight what Six meant by “events”, “frames” etc., i.e. four dimensional space time, and the ability to perceive it as it actually exists is the reason he is able to determine the future to some extend.

 

[ItsChon]

@ItsChon according to the internet, you are wrong about the naval mines. Like other defenses, they only (presumably) hamper enemy waves.

Yep, much to my surprised. I don't know, I distinctly remember not getting attacked after getting Naval Mines but I guess I'm imagining things.

Regarding chosen one status, Six nearly describes you thus outright, and you can respond with literal confirmation as a dialogue option.

Regarding free will, I think you misunderstood. The lack of free will is due to the nature of particle physics being deterministic. Brian Greene explains it in brief here, but there are plenty of other fairly accessible sources at varying degrees of complexity (depending on your familiarity with particle physics) that explain the concept:

https://youtu.be/wSYcUl2TXDc

(note that Tyson is cast as his usual obnoxious obstinate devil’s advocate self, Greene’s perspective is the clear and unequivocal consensus among physicists, as you’ll see if you dive into it yourself)

Regardless, I only mentioned free will as an aside, the point was to highlight what Six meant by “events”, “frames” etc., i.e. four dimensional space time, which is the reason he is able to determine the future to some extend.

Except particle physics isn't deterministic, as shown by collapsing wave functions, which remain a mystery to this day.

Also, you never answered about your top ten games.

 

[Tygrende]

Your dislike for Six is not unique. It's so common in fact that finding ways to kill Six then keeping them secret and teasing Styg with it (he's very protective of him) is like a sport of sorts for some long time players, including me.

This is the most recent one. Already fixed so can be shared safely.

your language is incomplete

 

[Twiglard]

Regarding free will, I think you misunderstood. The lack of free will is due to the nature of particle physics being deterministic.

Free will is impossible to reconcile with a materialist worldview, even if physics are assumed to be non-deterministic.

 

[Grunker]

Your dislike for Six is not unique. It's so common in fact that finding ways to kill Six then keeping them secret and teasing Styg with it (he's very protective of him) is like a sport of sorts for some long time players, including me.

This is the most recent one. Already fixed so can be shared safely.

your language is incomplete

Haha, I love it

 

[Trashos]

Grunker, I am relatively comfortable with Physics, yes. I have never followed the Free Will debate closely, though. I do not believe that we (humanity) understand modern Physics well enough to produce such a conclusion. We do not even really understand something as basic as Young's slit experiment (which was referred to in the clip). ItsChon is having the same issue, I see.

The neuroscientist's conclusion in the clip by that '80s experiment is also not fully convincing. Maybe I am not making the decision WHEN I think I am making it, but maybe I am (or my brain is) still making it.

But I can see how it is fun to ponder on those things. And I am not saying that Free Will is not a problem.
------

However, I will suggest (and this is difficult for me to articulate) that UR may be playing with the concepts on at least 2 fronts, the same way that Kubrick (who is obviously one of the inspirations here) plays with the Monolith concept on at least 2 fronts in Space Odyssey. On 1 front, Kubrick's Monoliths drive evolution and humanity forward, but on another metaphorical front it has been argued that the Monoliths are just cinema screens rotated by 90 degrees. On this metaphorical level, Kubrick is "speaking" directly to the viewer.

Like Kubrick and Space Odyssey has references to watching a film, UR too has occasions where there are references to playing video games. During the Foundry murders quest, you hack into the murderer's laptop, find the evidence, and then you can exit by pressing the "Play Underrail" button. Is that there just to be cool? Or is it telling us something?

On the Battery Trouble quest given to you by Harold in SGS, the PC goes to a battery recycling plant and controls a robot remotely. At that point we are sorta playing a game within the game.

My evidence is by no means conclusive, but I wouldn't be surprised if at various points UR tries to apply its concepts directly to the gamer. Which is where the Free Will issue parallel to you not accepting your heroic status came from.

It is just something fun to think about.

 

[Grunker]

There are definitely many references like that - Hank Wardell is probably a player character too, and possibly Dude as well. Just like we can discuss our ability to save and load with the ferryman

 

[Trashos]

I bought this game a long time ago, I made a boring tanky sledgehammer build. Never ended up finishing it for this reason, any suggestions for an actually fun build?

I usually suggest stealthy SMG for early playthroughs. But if you want something more elaborate, maybe you should check out psi builds (who are basically wizards).

There are definitely many references like that - Hank Wardell is probably a player character too, and possibly Dude as well. Just like we can discuss our ability to save and load with the ferryman

Exactly, False Death --> reload.
I had not thought about Hank, you are right! The Dude, I don't think so. But could be.

 

[Trashos]

Hm... I just joined the Pirates and something happened that has never happened to me before...

Spoiler

Aegis is attacking the Port!

Is this new or did I leave too many sec troopers alive before leaving them this time?

 

[ItsChon]

Hm... I just joined the Pirates and something happened that has never happened to me before...

Spoiler

Aegis is attacking the Port!

Is this new or did I leave too many sec troopers alive before leaving them this time?

It always happened to me, though I've always joined the pirates post the big event. IDK, maybe Aegis numbers is tied into this as well.

I bought this game a long time ago, I made a boring tanky sledgehammer build. Never ended up finishing it for this reason, any suggestions for an actually fun build?

Yeah sure. Any preferences or ideas of how you'd want to play?

 

[lukaszek]

you can join pirates before big event?

 

[ItsChon]

you can join pirates before big event?

Uhhh, now that I think about it, IDK. Can't you approach them at any time and just bring them an Aegis jet?

 

[Trashos]

maybe Aegis numbers is tied into this as well.

Since you are saying that this is not new, Aegis numbers is definitely tied to it. I have left 15 troops alive back in the camp (I checked with Briggs just before going to the Pirates), which is the most I have ever left alive.

(I make sure that I "defend" two native attacks before switching in order to bring Aegis numbers down. But this time Aegis did a bit too well in the 2nd attack.)

 

[Tygrende]

There's basically two ways to join pirates:

1. By talking to Razor and bringing him an Aegis Patroller. This can be done regardless of whether you joined Aegis or not, but if you did, it has to be done before the professor was kidnapped. If you try asking Razor to join after that he will say it's very convenient you decided to join at this particular time and refuse. Can't join them after the kidnapping is resolved, either. Otherwise you can join them at pretty much any point in the game.
2. During the negotiations if you pass a persuasion check.

Regardless of how you join, the Aegis raid is the first thing that is going to happen if Aegis is still alive. The very next thing you have to do is to kill enough of their jet ski patrolls, unless they already suffered enough losses. This can often happen on its own because they are getting their shit pushed in very fast by tribal invasions without your help.

 

[Trashos]

By talking to Razor and bringing him an Aegis Patroller. This can be done regardless of whether you joined Aegis or not, but if you did, it has to be done before the professor was kidnapped. If you try asking Razor to join after that he will say it's very convenient you decided to join at this particular time and refuse.

It can be done right after the professor is kidnapped. That's how I always do it, I tell Briggs I am going to negotiate, I go to Razor, and ask him to join instead (at which point he asks me to steal a patroller). No persuasion check.

 

[Trashos]

the Aegis raid is the first thing that is going to happen if Aegis is still alive.

This is the first time I ever saw the Aegis raid. It does not happen if Aegis numbers are too low. 15 sec troops alive, and it happens. Less than 10, and it doesn't. I am not sure where the limit is.

 

[Tygrende]

By talking to Razor and bringing him an Aegis Patroller. This can be done regardless of whether you joined Aegis or not, but if you did, it has to be done before the professor was kidnapped. If you try asking Razor to join after that he will say it's very convenient you decided to join at this particular time and refuse.

It can be done right after the professor is kidnapped. That's how I always do it, I tell Briggs I am going to negotiate, I go to Razor, and ask him to join instead (at which point he asks me to steal a patroller). No persuasion check.

Interesting, I'm 90% sure he refused to let me join at that point. Maybe there's another variable, or maybe it changed with some update.

the Aegis raid is the first thing that is going to happen if Aegis is still alive.

This is the first time I ever saw the Aegis raid. It does not happen if Aegis numbers are too low. 15 sec troops alive, and it happens. Less than 10, and it doesn't. I am not sure where the limit is.

Yeah by "alive" I really meant "there's enough of them left to do anything". In my experience they were usually already dead rather than low in numbers, they die out very fast if you're not helping.

 

[Trashos]

Interesting, I'm 90% sure he refused to let me join at that point. Maybe there's another variable, or maybe it changed with some update.

Either that or possibly you convoluted the discussion too much when you tried it. Asking to join is the first thing I say to Razor (after asking him who he is, but before mentioning the professor), maybe it has something to do with it.