Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Trashos]

Also, is there any hidden reputation stat associated with giving inappropriate responses in the Institute, or just funny dialog?

Don't mess up your initial interview by that hot chick. Other than that, I do not know.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Ezra is easily one of my favorite NPCs.

Regarding the storytelling being silo'd, that makes sense in the gameworld.

This is south underrail. The infrastructure is crumbling, pockets of civilization are essentially states and powers unto themselves. If they can hold what they grab.

Couple that with most people falling into either the victim or victimizer category outside a handful of places, you have a completely believable situation in terms of stories mostly limited to those hubs. These are all independent fiefdoms. In the north underrail that might be the case of information traveling from place to place, but not here.

 

[ghostlife]

Also, is there any hidden reputation stat associated with giving inappropriate responses in the Institute, or just funny dialog?

Don't mess up your initial interview by that hot chick. Other than that, I do not know.

So far the only negative reaction seems to be from Denzil

 

[Jason Liang]

Fuck. I'm getting the itch again...

Chlamydia?

 

[BING XI LAO]

Attributes are: STR 8, CON 10, Wis 10++, the rest dumped. But on Dominating enemies hit so hard that even Conditioning 10 CON and heavy armour is not as good as simply LOS abusing with ninja tabis, so I guess I should've gone agi/dex. Maybe I will change my tune when I start crafting high quality armour.

When playing a tank build on dominating, getting your first piece of crafted metal armor feels amazing. My Metathermics Tank Sledgehammer only had nine con and I still felt pretty tanky on dominating. If I wanted to powergame I could have added TM and been even tankier with Stasis. Also, if you're not already using them, drugs are a must on a tank character. Aegis + Morphine + Last Stand will make you extremely hard to kill for four turns, which along with the initial few turns you will get from your natural lankiness and initiating combat, should be more than adequate to deal any encounter while still feeling like you're sticking true to the actual tank experience. It is a ton of fun, and I actually really enjoy playing a tank character, and the fact that Underrail was actually able to pull that off is very impressive.

Nice, looking forward to it.

Also I think I know the two things I dislike most about the game now that I'm halfway through 3rd full playthrough (not counting abandoned ones)
-accuracy cap on grenades/metathermics AoE (also sniper shots most likely, but haven't played sniper or crossbow yet)

I think the idea of an accuracy cap is actually good, and the current way it is implemented rarely bothers me. That being said, I do think it would be an improvement if the cap was raised anywhere from 97-99%. Styg could require an exponential increase in stats to eke out the last few percentage points for balancing purpose.

This kind of curve would be nice.

-certain skills having ideal cutoff points which can be metagamed (especially Mercantile and Persuasion)

I don't see anything wrong with this. How would you even change/"fix" this?

You could put in a random +-d10 at game start to every check, and Mercantile's bonus merchandise could get bigger or smaller depending on how far the check was exceeded.

-SGS' limited interaction with the rest of the game world. The Black Eels gang fight, retaking the outpost, and asking the experts at SGS to examine Foundry mine creatures and Hercules drug are all really cool, but that's as far as it goes.

Eh I have to hard disagree here.

There's no gameplay interaction (ie linking quests) between SGS and the Oligarchs, SGS and Ironheads, SGS and lurkers (except that funny little quest earlygame), SGS and Free Drones/Protectorate (except delivering some trade docs, zzz).

Gorsky is literally the linking quest between SGS and the Oligarchs. Despite the fact that he ends up abandoning his allegiance to SGS, this is definitely a link between SGS and the Oligarchs.

He goes to Core City to help them against the Faceless and gets the brush-off (presumably he demanded some kind of command position). And I don't think he does that as an SGS representative. So no link there, and then his quest interacts with Protectorate, Drop Zone gangs, and a Faceless tunneler - it's very cool but certainly not linking SGS to anything.

As for the Ironheads, their territory is far away from SGS, why would there be any interactions between the two factions? In addition, having the Ironheads to keep the Foundry in check is probably a good thing for SGS, as it helps maintain the precarious balance of power in Southern Underrail.

True, I should've taken another look at the map before talking about SGS versus Ironheads.

As for the lurkers, there is a quest linking them, but again, Lurker territory is not near SGS. Although Lurkers can be found a few zones away from SGS, I have always considered some of the zone transitions to indicate hours passing versus being directly adjacent to each other.

Also true.

The peak of this problem is represented by the SGS leadership. Ezra is a solid figure in the leadership, but I don't quite grasp why he's silent in the debate on whether to establish an SGS foothold in Junkyard via the gang fight.

I get the impression he just doesn't give a fuck. He is using SGS for his own means.

It's just rather strange that he isn't anti-Protectorate. Gorsky says "they shoot Ezra" in the gang alliance debate - no response. Ezra being a thought controller means he doesn't have to worry too much about being caught, but surely he came to SGS to be away from Protectorate? So does Mordre. There's no better refuge than SGS, you'd think they would be a bit more paranoid.

I still like how SGS is used in the game, as the starting-off point for the character and the storyline, but it's the best example of how the game world is frustratingly less interconnected than it could be. My favourite part of the game is when it is highly interconnected, like with the wacky secret routes opened up by Phreak, or the remarkably few screen transitions needed to walk from Core City to SGS via underpassages, or when you're exploring via jetski and find yourself on a map that is part of the land route from SGS to Mushroom Cove that you walked at level 4, and the secret entrances/exits into the Institute of Tchort.

Do you mean interconnected in a gameplay sense or interconnected in a lore sense? In my opinion, it is extremely well done in both and I will reiterate, I'm not sure what can be done to make it more interconnected short of just adding more minor quests. The game is already massive man.

I meant in a gameplay sense only. I can never get enough Underrail content.

 

[BING XI LAO]

On accuracy caps, it's just rage (and reload) inducing that your char can be built to be absolutely superb at throwing grenades (or metathermic AoEs) only to occasionally go "haha le DERP" and instagib himself.
I think it's fine to have misfires (and maybe even have an incentive to wear blast cloth) as a moderately skilled character, but for over 150 skill say, you are a true elite who shouldn't be making such mistakes.

 

[ItsChon]

You could put in a random +-d10 at game start to every check, and Mercantile's bonus merchandise could get bigger or smaller depending on how far the check was exceeded.

Let's be real, this would just incentivize reloading. Even me, someone who considers himself an inclinced gamer, would definitely lean into this chance mechanic as I could use the skill points for different builds that are skill point hungry. I'm not a fan of RNG checks like this.

He goes to Core City to help them against the Faceless and gets the brush-off (presumably he demanded some kind of command position). And I don't think he does that as an SGS representative. So no link there, and then his quest interacts with Protectorate, Drop Zone gangs, and a Faceless tunneler - it's very cool but certainly not linking SGS to anything.

Tanner outright states that Gorsky has set off to Core City and we are to make contact with him. Gorsky does go as an SGS representative but he gets rebuffed by the Oligarchs not because he demands a command position but because they are not interested in having SGS involved in their affairs. The part where he does his own thing is when instead of reporting back to heading back to Tanner and reporting what happened, he decides to stay to establish himself in the city, likely spurred on by the tenuous situation in the city which presented the perfect opportunity for Gorsky to establish himself in the place he once called home and has an extremely strong connection to.

In the end game credits, if the PC is a part of the free drones, it is established that SGS and Gorsky develop a strong alliance built on an anti-Protectorate stance focused on keeping them out of SGS, so obviously he still has some connection to the place.

It's just rather strange that he isn't anti-Protectorate. Gorsky says "they shoot Ezra" in the gang alliance debate - no response. Ezra being a thought controller means he doesn't have to worry too much about being caught, but surely he came to SGS to be away from Protectorate? So does Mordre. There's no better refuge than SGS, you'd think they would be a bit more paranoid.

Ah I actually remembered the reason he was likely quiet during this. Ezra states towards the end of the game he was constantly probing Tanner's defenses and trying to break through his mental barriers to learn what he can. It makes sense that he'd be using this opportunity to try and break Tanner's thoughts while he is distracted holding a conversation with four different people and having to consider a large variety of factors in regards to whether or not SGS would benefit from aiding the Black Eels, as well as likely considering how it would impact other spoilery stuff relating to the his overarching plans that have nothing to do with SGS at all.

I meant in a gameplay sense only. I can never get enough Underrail content.

I mean agreed. I made a post on the forum before the final update where I implored Styg to add a way for us to explore the Waterways before the Expedition for the very sake of making the game feel more interconnected. I don't if he actually read and considered my suggestion, and/or whether or not that was something he was already planning on doing, but it was a good update (though I do personally would have liked a tiny bit more content in regards to SGS and their presence in the Waterways, but a minor point). Honestly though the game is super interconnected like you said, and it just seems strange to say the level of interconnectedness the game currently is at is frustrating. I really can't think of a single RPG that is as interconnected as RPG, and it is a masterclass in that sense.

It makes me so excited to see what Infusion will bring with all the engine improvements that Styg has planned. God willing the whole team is able to support themselves financially with these titles so we can get Infusion and eventually Underrail 2 within the next decade. I'd rather Styg focus on those two games, although I usually dislike arguments such as this which imply a mutual exclusivity which doesn't have to be the case.

 

[BING XI LAO]

You could put in a random +-d10 at game start to every check, and Mercantile's bonus merchandise could get bigger or smaller depending on how far the check was exceeded.

Let's be real, this would just incentivize reloading. Even me, someone who considers himself an inclinced gamer, would definitely lean into this chance mechanic as I could use the skill points for different builds that are skill point hungry. I'm not a fan of RNG checks like this.

I mean at game start, all the persuasion etc checks in the game would have a +-d10 added to them, that wouldn't change upon subsequent reloads in that playthrough. Just to muddy the waters on what exact amount to take.

 

[ItsChon]

You could put in a random +-d10 at game start to every check, and Mercantile's bonus merchandise could get bigger or smaller depending on how far the check was exceeded.

Let's be real, this would just incentivize reloading. Even me, someone who considers himself an inclinced gamer, would definitely lean into this chance mechanic as I could use the skill points for different builds that are skill point hungry. I'm not a fan of RNG checks like this.

I mean at game start, all the persuasion etc checks in the game would have a +-d10 added to them, that wouldn't change upon subsequent reloads in that playthrough. Just to muddy the waters on what exact amount to take.

Just why? Would actually cuck certain builds that are very tight on skillpoints. Why is it a big deal that certain statchecks can be metagamed? A ton of games have arbitrary stat checks such as this, it is just more pronounced in Underrail due to how every skill point really matters.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Oh... and I only have a generic +29 headband.

 

[PrK]

You could put in a random +-d10 at game start to every check, and Mercantile's bonus merchandise could get bigger or smaller depending on how far the check was exceeded.

Let's be real, this would just incentivize reloading. Even me, someone who considers himself an inclinced gamer, would definitely lean into this chance mechanic as I could use the skill points for different builds that are skill point hungry. I'm not a fan of RNG checks like this.

I mean at game start, all the persuasion etc checks in the game would have a +-d10 added to them, that wouldn't change upon subsequent reloads in that playthrough. Just to muddy the waters on what exact amount to take.

Just why? Would actually cuck certain builds that are very tight on skillpoints. Why is it a big deal that certain statchecks can be metagamed? A ton of games have arbitrary stat checks such as this, it is just more pronounced in Underrail due to how every skill point really matters.

Tbf that would be on-character for Styg considering the randomisation of content upon game start, that can also potentially mess with your carefully pre-planned builds.

 

[Trashos]

Fighting metagaming is fighting an issue that does not exist. I am not a playing a game a 2nd-3rd-nth time to not metagame. If I didn't want to metagame, I 'd be playing another game by now.

Furthermore, part of the fun in Underrail is designing the build. The known/metagamed values produce trade offs for the designer that are fun to deal with. Do I put those skill points in Persuasion to get this advantage or do I put them in that other skill to get that advantage? These trade offs are the core of the fun in designing builds.

Pickpocketing went from lolrandom dice-based to deterministic at some point, and it became an infinitely better system. Let's not go the opposite direction for other skills.

 

[Trashos]

I think that the Ironheads were planning to expand towards SGS after they dealt with Foundry. There is a small party of Ironheads south of the SGS train, and to me it looks like they are keeping an eye on SGS for future ventures.

Or maybe they are just keeping an eye on what is going on at their rear so they have no surprises. But you know how these things go. First they take Foundry to have production, then they take SGS to get access to the sea.

 

[lukaszek]

speaking of ironheads, if balor can crush beast with his hammer, so should PC be able to

 

[BING XI LAO]

Fighting metagaming is fighting an issue that does not exist. I am not a playing a game a 2nd-3rd-nth time to not metagame. If I didn't want to metagame, I 'd be playing another game by now.

Furthermore, part of the fun in Underrail is designing the build. The known/metagamed values produce trade offs for the designer that are fun to deal with. Do I put those skill points in Persuasion to get this advantage or do I put them in that other skill to get that advantage? These trade offs are the core of the fun in designing builds.

Pickpocketing went from lolrandom dice-based to deterministic at some point, and it became an infinitely better system. Let's not go the opposite direction for other skills.

Designing a build around arbitrary metagamed on/off threshholds is boring and unimmersive IMO. Would rather design a character with a "poor" "medium" or "high" chance of passing various persuasion rolls, than saying "I need 85 for this persuasion check". And would rather be able to mix and match the various skills and abilities to create a novel character for a replay, than having to figure out pre-arranged optimal combinations. Is that really just me?

I also don't like threshholds in general, for example the exact 30% threshhold for Survival Instincts - I'd rather replace it with a % chance to crit equal to say 1/3rd of current missing health%. Don't think most prerequisites are good either, three-pointer without grenadier would be an interesting option for example. (edit: just realised it already doesn't require Grenadier)

 

[BING XI LAO]

 

[Zeem]

Designing a build around arbitrary metagamed on/off threshholds is boring and unimmersive IMO. Would rather design a character with a "poor" "medium" or "high" chance of passing various persuasion rolls, than saying "I need 85 for this persuasion check". And would rather be able to mix and match the various skills and abilities to create a novel character for a replay, than having to figure out pre-arranged optimal combinations. Is that really just me?

Somebody in Bethesda thought the same way when Fallout 3 was made.

 

[ghostlife]

View attachment 36001

Should have made him holding a sledgehammer, shotgun is the one weapon that doesn't get impacted by that at all

 

[Trashos]

I am playing a Knives build right now. I fucking hate the Expose Weakness feat -it is so useless against multiple strongmen.

JSHQ gives a lot of problems to several of my builds. I consider the first part of JSHQ (getting your gear back) to be nothing sort of a masterpiece. But it is the second part (dealing with all the robots) I have trouble with. I can deal with it with generous use of traps or by abusing the multiple entrances, but I am not happy. I do accept that my lighter builds (firearm pistols, and especially knives/gloves) are probably supposed to have trouble there.

That aside, is Torpedo amazing or what? I am using it for the first time ever, and it's a blast. Since I am enjoying it so much, I am considering giving the fast jets a try with my ranged builds as well. Torpedo's stability cannot get to 100% as far as I can see, but the Blazer's and Phaser's stability can (with the naval feats, best medium suspension, and marine armor).

EDIT: On second thought, I think you can get to 100% stability with Torpedo by using jetdrag, but that's too expensive to be using all the time.

 

[ItsChon]

I am playing a Knives build right now. I fucking hate the Expose Weakness feat -it is so useless against multiple strongmen.

JSHQ gives a lot of problems to several of my builds. I consider the first part of JSHQ (getting your gear back) to be nothing sort of a masterpiece. But it is the second part (dealing with all the robots) I have trouble with. I can deal with it with generous use of traps or by abusing the multiple entrances, but I am not happy. I do accept that my lighter builds (firearm pistols, and especially knives/gloves) are probably supposed to have trouble there.

That aside, is Torpedo amazing or what? I am using it for the first time ever, and it's a blast. Since I am enjoying it so much, I am considering giving the fast jets a try with my ranged builds as well. Torpedo's stability cannot get to 100% as far as I can see, but the Blazer's and Phaser's stability can (with the naval feats, best medium suspension, and marine armor).

EDIT: On second thought, I think you can get to 100% stability with Torpedo by using jetdrag, but that's too expensive to be using all the time.

I feel like Jet Skis are very underrated due to how limited they were when Expedition first came out. The fact that you can enter into the Waterways as soon as you're done with Depot A essentially really makes them feel more impactful. The faster Jet Skis are really fun to use despite being so frail and there is some great fun to be had with them and spears.

 

[Trashos]

ItsChon, what is the earliest you can get a jet ski? The earliest one I have seen is that used one sold by a guy at Camp Hathor after we are done with Camp Hathor's quests. Unfortunately for me, I find the Camp Hathor mine quest difficult (for non tanky builds), so I do it very late -it is the last major questline I do before entering the Institute.

So I have never thought about doing anything in the Waterways early. What is there to do, Waterways content looks pretty high level to me. Maybe the office building quest, but other than that?

 

[Tygrende]

ItsChon, what is the earliest you can get a jet ski? The earliest one I have seen is that used one sold by a guy at Camp Hathor after we are done with Camp Hathor's quests. Unfortunately for me, I find the Camp Hathor mine quest difficult (for non tanky builds), so I do it very late -it is the last major questline I do before entering the Institute.

So I have never thought about doing anything in the Waterways early. What is there to do, Waterways content looks pretty high level to me. Maybe the office building quest, but other than that?

If you don't want to deal with mines, the 2nd easiest and fastest way would be to pass an 80 pers check to join expedition with no other conditions. First invasion is easy enough that you can stand in a corner and let NPCs handle it for the most part. You will miss out on mercantile-free SSDs from Ladelman that you get if you join as invictus, though.

Joining Protectorate is pretty fast and easy too, both faceless and train quests can be done with barely or no combat at all.

 

[Trashos]

Wait a min, what does the Protectorate have to do with getting a jet ski?! (EDIT: Oh, you mean it helps with joining the Expedition, I presume?)

Right, I don't help with native invasions, since I later join the Pirates anyway. I stand at the northeast corner. However, it can get dicey (rarely) at high levels, eg if a crossbow user happens to decide to stand close. I assume that at lower levels with lower stealth it wouldn't be possible to do safely.

 

[Tygrende]

Wait a min, what does the Protectorate have to do with getting a jet ski?! (EDIT: Oh, you mean it helps with joining the Expedition, I presume?)

Right, I don't help with native invasions, since I later join the Pirates anyway. I stand at the northeast corner. However, it can get dicey (rarely) at high levels, eg if a crossbow user happens to decide to stand close. I assume that at lower levels with lower stealth it wouldn't be possible to do safely.

Joining Protectorate is one of the conditions you can meet to start expedition, which means getting a jet ski.

It's really not very dangerous even at low level without stealth. Crossbows will focus all the sec-troopers standing closer. It would only get dangerous if they died faster than new ones can appear, but that doesn't really happen on the 1st one, even on dom.

 

[Trashos]

Yes, I am on DOM. That's very strange to hear. In my earlier days I used to stand on the northwest corner, and they would eventually spot me and attack me (incl. in the 1st invasion). Now I stand on the northeast corner where I am much harder to spot, but I do not expect any different result if they spot me. I may try it since you say it, but I have trouble believing it.