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Fallout Underwhelmed by Fallout :(

Perkel

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Wasn't it because Vault Dweller simply joined tribal village rather than starting new one ? I mean Tandi is still alive so it is not like those people were civilized in first place. If anything VD made them more civilized talking about vaults and lore thus why hunt for GECK.
 

Sykar

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Wasn't it because Vault Dweller simply joined tribal village rather than starting new one ? I mean Tandi is still alive so it is not like those people were civilized in first place. If anything VD made them more civilized talking about vaults and lore thus why hunt for GECK.

Not sure about that and I do not think it was really clarified in the game either.
 
In My Safe Space
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Keep in mind though that the events of Fallout 2 happen 70 years after the events in Fallout 1. 70 years is plenty to build a "sacred" place.
The temple was forced by the management. The same with the tent town. Tent towns are for nomads. Arroyo is a settlement.
Arroyo was originally to be a village like Shady Sands but the management decided it would be boring and forced nonsensical tribals in tents.
 

Sykar

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The temple was forced by the management. The same with the tent town. Tent towns are for nomads. Arroyo is a settlement.
Arroyo was originally to be a village like Shady Sands but the management decided it would be boring and forced nonsensical tribals in tents.

First time I hear that tbh.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Arroyo

Does mention the inconsistencies with Arroyo being more advanced in the Fallout Bible than shown in game.
 

hiver

Guest
Wasn't it because Vault Dweller simply joined tribal village rather than starting new one ? I mean Tandi is still alive so it is not like those people were civilized in first place. If anything VD made them more civilized talking about vaults and lore thus why hunt for GECK.
I cant remember properly... could be half-half really. But in any case, as a small society they did regress over time.
 

tuluse

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What does ''higher purpose'' has to do with theme?
By higher purpose I meant overall theme. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

What the hell is "thematic consistency"?
It's pretty clear that you don't understand this despite my massive number of posts trying to explain. Within a work of fiction, if it's any quality, there will be themes explored. One of them might be something like "difference between people lead to conflict". Pretty basic theme right there. So within this work of fiction each part of it should let the audience experience a facet of that theme. That's what it means to be consistent. Now if you have several major themes running through the work, each section wouldn't need to explore all of them, but it should explore at a minimum, one of the major themes.

There is no thematic consistency in the game because it already was a weird mix of like 4-5 different themes already in the first games. Yet you have no problem them throwing together several sci fi and fantasy elements yet because it's the second game somehow you get ape shit crazy because of a handful of Asians. Mind boggling, to say the least.
Fantasy and sci-fi are not themes. I'm harping on San Fran because it the worst example of inconsistency, so it's easy to argue. There are other examples in Fallout 2, but my memory fades...

And why you are so fixated on the fucking irrelevant for 90% of the game Enclave?
The final boss is not thematically connected to the rest of the game got it. Neither is San Fran which you have agreed to. What percentage of the game is the Enclave? Another 5%? Are we up to 10% that isn't thematically consistent? If I kept going area by area, what do you think this percentage is going to reach?
 

Sykar

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By higher purpose I meant overall theme. Sorry if I wasn't clear.


Fantasy and sci-fi are not themes.


The final boss is not thematically connected to the rest of the game got it. Neither is San Fran which you have agreed to. What percentage of the game is the Enclave? Another 5%? Are we up to 10% that isn't thematically consistent? If I kept going area by area, what do you think this percentage is going to reach?

More nonsense please. There is nothing "thematically inconsistent" about the Enclave, all I said was that they are irrelevant for the vast majority of the game. Stop making stuff up.
 

Sykar

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It's pretty clear that you don't understand this despite my massive number of posts trying to explain. Within a work of fiction, if it's any quality, there will be themes explored. One of them might be something like "difference between people lead to conflict". Pretty basic theme right there. So within this work of fiction each part of it should let the audience experience a facet of that theme. That's what it means to be consistent. Now if you have several major themes running through the work, each section wouldn't need to explore all of them, but it should explore at a minimum, one of the major themes.

That might be true for fictional writing. Games are mostly about fun though. Furthermore, I do not see the need to let the player explore any theme to a major length and neither do you define in any exact way what exactly "exploring a theme" means in terms of thoroughness. To me San Francisco is fine. It's cliched but it's clear they wanted to show that there is a possibility that a former minority can rise to prominence. I see no inconsistencies here. We can talk about quality of execution or how cliche it is, but considering what a big mess of so many borrowed and rehashed parts FO 1 is I see no reason to judge FO 2 worse than FO 1, especially when it is so much better in so many other areas.

For me, all you do is nitpicking.
 

tuluse

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That might be true for fictional writing. Games are mostly about fun though. Furthermore, I do not see the need to let the player explore any theme to a major length and neither do you define in any exact way what exactly "exploring a theme" means in terms of thoroughness. To me San Francisco is fine. It's cliched but it's clear they wanted to show that there is a possibility that a former minority can rise to prominence. I see no inconsistencies here. We can talk about quality of execution or how cliche it is, but considering what a big mess of so many borrowed and rehashed parts FO 1 is I see no reason to judge FO 2 worse than FO 1, especially when it is so much better in so many other areas.

For me, all you do is nitpicking.
I never asked you to care about thematic consistency, but for those of us who do, it's clear Fallout 2 is worse at it.
 

Infinitron

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A word of warning: An enemy faction that doesn't really play a role in the game until the very end might or might not be considered poor storytelling, but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with thematic consistency.

But what is Fallout 2's theme, anyway? I propose that the words of the game's intro have something to do with it:

But the scars left by the war have not yet healed. And the Earth has not forgotten.

I think the Enclave fits that rather well. The rest of the game, though, perhaps not as clearly.
 

tuluse

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I wrote earlier that I thought the main themes were about how to build society for the future with 3 difference paths to take in New Reno, NCR, and Vault City. Whether society should be ordered for free being the most prominent of them.
 

Infinitron

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I wrote earlier that I thought the main themes were about how to build society for the future with 3 difference paths to take in New Reno, NCR, and Vault City. Whether society should be ordered for free being the most prominent of them.

OK, and then there's the Enclave, a relic from the past which just wants to reset things, thus making it an enemy of all three paths.

I don't think theme is really the problem with the Enclave.

San Francisco could have been made to work thematically too, with some more thought. Its people are also peculiar remnants of the past. But now I'm repeating myself.
 

Vault Dweller

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That might be true for fictional writing. Games are mostly about fun though.
^ A point of view usually shared by the Bethesda/Bioware crowd when facing criticism of these games.

I understand that you don't care about the setting or the themes that much, but you should be able to understand the nature of the criticism. For instance:

Furthermore, I do not see the need to let the player explore any theme to a major length and neither do you define in any exact way what exactly "exploring a theme" means in terms of thoroughness.
Many people do want to experience the game via exploring these themes because the first game did it so well. These people will be disappointed.

To me San Francisco is fine.
Because "games are mostly about fun though".

But what is Fallout 2's theme, anyway? I propose that the words of the game's intro have something to do with it:

But the scars left by the war have not yet healed. And the Earth has not forgotten.

I think the Enclave fits that rather well. The rest of the game, though, perhaps not as clearly.
I have two issues with the Enclave.

1) It's stupid. The idea that the government would retreat and wait out the devastation is great and logical, but it's been 160 years, which is a long time. They didn't evolve or change in any way. They still behave as it the war started 10-15 years ago. BoS evolved into a quasi-religious organization in 80 years with a clear goal in mind. The Enclave did nothing at all.

I mean, logically, you'd expect them to start taking charge after the war, re-establishing their control since they are clearly in a position to do so. Yet they sit and do nothing, frozen in time. That's why the fact that they don't play ANY role is jarring. Not because it's an enemy faction but because it's the US government with a fucking president.

Their attempt to go back to the old ways, to force the new powerful towns to accept their authority, their laws, pay taxes, etc would have fit the themes established by the first game perfectly. Not to mention, all 'philosophical' changes that would come with it. Unfortunately, they are just another theme park location, disconnected from the world, and existing only to show the player something cool and give him a tough endgame enemy to fight.

2) It's stupid. They want to release some gas and kill all impure humans, which is 95% of all humans, basically. First, it's dumb on so many levels it's not even funny. Second, it turns the game into 'save the world from retarded evil that would destroy it for the lulz', which is a pale and depth-less shadow of the Master's beliefs.
 

Infinitron

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Their attempt to go back to the old ways, to force the new powerful towns to accept their authority, their laws, pay taxes, etc would have fit the themes established by the first game perfectly.

Colonel Autumn from Fallout 3 Brofisted this post!

I don't have any comment on the stupidity of Fallout 2's plot. Just wanted to say that stupid things can also be thematically consistent.
 

tuluse

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One thing I did like, which was hinted at but not actually done, was the idea of the Enclave running black operations on the main land. If they were trying to secretly manipulate the situation (maybe undermining all the regional powers so they could take control?) that could have been a cool element. Unfortunately, kill everyone is a not interesting at all.

Colonel Autumn from Fallout 3 Brofisted this post!

I don't have any comment on the stupidity of Fallout 2's plot. Just wanted to say that stupid things can also be thematically consistent.
Agreed, like I said I think New Reno is thematically consistent with Fallout 2, it's still kind of stupid.
 

laclongquan

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Temple of Trial is a prewar architecture, according to Avellone, so there~ Source

As for Enclave's ideal, it's no longer politic but religion. They do not dictate then follow a policy of resettle mainland, but follow a rigid religious teaching. They should have, and behaved as if they had been stagnant for decades. It's pretty similar to Brotherhood of Steel, though BoS is in contact with reality more, so their teachings has some grounds in reality. Enclave saw only themselves as real human, and everyone else either a target to be killed, or a primitive serfs to be exploited/enslaved.

From two factor, religious teachings, and not grounded in reality, lead to the a combination of stupid/dangerous policies, like "KILL THEM ALL, let God sort them out~"

Dont think of Enclave as a goverment, but as a cult, and their actions start to be understandable.
 

Goral

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You're right it's hardly comparable, Fallout 1 is just that much better.

1) In Fallout 1 we have a highly trained human with 2 miniguns on a turret who is also protected by its armour. Not to mention that once you attack him all other people will retaliate. So chances of success should be close to zero. What's more, by the time we have a chance to attack him we've already brought water chip and accomplished so much. Why would someone want to attack him at that point, after risking your life trying to save all of them?

2) In Fallout 2 we have a bunch of primitives we know nothing about that can be easily killed and for some reason it means it's game over at the very start. It's just bad design. I don't see how killing 2 people could prevent the player to go to Den/New Reno/whatever and do the quests. The only thing the player would lose would be a reason to find GECK. In Fallout 1 restrictions actually mean something and are properly designed.
 

Sykar

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You're right it's hardly comparable, Fallout 1 is just that much better.

1) In Fallout 1 we have a highly trained human with 2 miniguns on a turret who is also protected by its armour. Not to mention that once you attack him all other people will retaliate. So chances of success should be close to zero. What's more, by the time we have a chance to attack him we've already brought water chip and accomplished so much. Why would someone want to attack him at that point, after risking your life trying to save all of them?

2) In Fallout 2 we have a bunch of primitives we know nothing about that can be easily killed and for some reason it means it's game over at the very start. It's just bad design. I don't see how killing 2 people could prevent the player to go to Den/New Reno/whatever and do the quests. The only thing the player would lose would be a reason to find GECK. In Fallout 1 restrictions actually mean something and are properly designed.

What a bunch of nonsense.
 

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