Fallout Underwhelmed by Fallout :(

[Zombra]

In Fallout 2 we have a bunch of primitives we know nothing about that can be easily killed and for some reason it means it's game over at the very start. It's just bad design. I don't see how killing 2 people could prevent the player to go to Den/New Reno/whatever and do the quests. The only thing the player would lose would be a reason to find GECK. In Fallout 1 restrictions actually mean something and are properly designed.

Not sure if serious. Just because there is a lot of sandboxy stuff in the game doesn't necessarily mean that you can say fuck you to the MQ. If the designers want to say that murdering your own family is a fail state, they can (and it is perfectly "meaningful" for them to do so). Every CRPG has some kind of framework for who the PC is and what is and isn't acceptable. You might as well complain that you can't continue the game in Fallout after intentionally blowing yourself up with a hand grenade.

 

[Sykar]

Not sure if serious. Just because there is a lot of sandboxy stuff in the game doesn't necessarily mean that you can say fuck you to the MQ. If the designers want to say that murdering your own family is a fail state, they can (and it is perfectly "meaningful" for them to do so). Every CRPG has some kind of framework for who the PC is and what is and isn't acceptable. You might as well complain that you can't continue the game in Fallout after intentionally blowing yourself up with a hand grenade.

But, but I want to play a retard who is too stupid to handle explosives! Why doesn't Fallout let me!?

 

[tuluse]

I don't like the complaints about unkillable NPCs either. Both over plenty of freedom, and are about the wrt who you can kill.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

You're right it's hardly comparable, Fallout 1 is just that much better.

1) In Fallout 1 we have a highly trained human with 2 miniguns on a turret who is also protected by its armour. Not to mention that once you attack him all other people will retaliate. So chances of success should be close to zero. What's more, by the time we have a chance to attack him we've already brought water chip and accomplished so much. Why would someone want to attack him at that point, after risking your life trying to save all of them?

2) In Fallout 2 we have a bunch of primitives we know nothing about that can be easily killed and for some reason it means it's game over at the very start. It's just bad design. I don't see how killing 2 people could prevent the player to go to Den/New Reno/whatever and do the quests. The only thing the player would lose would be a reason to find GECK. In Fallout 1 restrictions actually mean something and are properly designed.

No.

 

[Athelas]

You're right it's hardly comparable, Fallout 1 is just that much better.

1) In Fallout 1 we have a highly trained human with 2 miniguns on a turret who is also protected by its armour. Not to mention that once you attack him all other people will retaliate. So chances of success should be close to zero. What's more, by the time we have a chance to attack him we've already brought water chip and accomplished so much. Why would someone want to attack him at that point, after risking your life trying to save all of them?

Because he's an asshole. Also, the fact that he's permanently seated on a throne armed with a turret (interestingly enough, just like The Master) should tip you off how absurd this argument is.

 

[hiver]

All those declarations VD and Tuluse keep making have been refuted and they cannot support them by anything but their opinion that it is so. Because.

Repeating them again and again while pretending they are just correct has no relevance at all. Just shows how nonsensical such assertions are.

 

[tuluse]

All those declarations VD and Tuluse keep making have been refuted and they cannot support them by anything but their opinion that it is so. Because.

Repeating them again and again while pretending they are just correct has no relevance at all. Just shows how nonsensical such assertions are.

No one has refuted that Fallout 2 is less thematically consistent than Fallout 1. The only argument put forward is whether that matters or not. Which I will allow is up to personal taste.

 

[hiver]

I refuted it and you failed to prove your assertions with anything but making more unsupported assertions.

I gave you a list of locations and you just ran away.
That doesnt prove anything you say.

Plus you are wrong about main themes of Fallout.

I wrote earlier that I thought the main themes were about how to build society for the future with 3 difference paths to take in New Reno, NCR, and Vault City. Whether society should be ordered for free being the most prominent of them.

No, the themes are exploring what such a society - as three guys in 90s imagined an alternate 50s sci fi pulpy civilization would be - would look like in post-apocalyptic setting. Exploring what would such post apocalyptic setting would look like, what it would produce. Any kind of "rebuilding" works directly against that.

While the main underlying theme was exploring what is the nature of the man - for which a post apocalyptic setting provides the best, most diversified frame with all those small communities separated from each other, inspired or influenced by remnants of the past and current post-apoc circumstances.

Where do you think MC got his idea for Planescape main theme?

 

[Ninjerk]

No one has refuted that Fallout 2 is less thematically consistent than Fallout 1. The only argument put forward is whether that matters or not. Which I will allow is up to personal taste.

Also, that you just sound nitpicky

 

[Vault Dweller]

No one has refuted that Fallout 2 is less thematically consistent than Fallout 1. The only argument put forward is whether that matters or not. Which I will allow is up to personal taste.

Precisely. Some people give a fuck, others don't. Hiver, however, considers such thoughts a heresy that must be eradicated.

 

[hiver]

How do hell did you come to that conclusion?

Are you guys drinking while posting? Because if you do im gonna pour myself one too.

Some people give a fuck, others don't.

This is an empty and quite insulting assertion you havent proved by anything, but you keep repeating it.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/fallout-3-2d-tb-vs-3d-fps.17833/page-4#post-345207

 

[Darth Roxor]

an awor vs hiver thunderdome would be a sight to behold

 

[Gnidrologist]

look guise, fallout sux compared to fallout two, see
deal with it
go gather your kodex kool kredits elswhere

 

[Vault Dweller]

This is an empty and quite insulting assertion you havent proved by anything, but you keep repeating it.

This very discussion is the proof but you remain blind to it because you just know that you're right, which means the others must be wrong.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

look guise, fallout sux compared to fallout two, see
deal with it
go gather your kodex kool kredits elswhere

Thank God no Fallout 3 fans are around...

 

[hiver]

Another empty assertion VD. I gave you clear reasons and factual arguments for my opinion. You provided none. You keep repeating your little insulting declaratory schtick because you think you are correct and others are wrong - just because.

an awor vs hiver thunderdome would be a sight to behold

Let me know when you wnat to talk about how complicated the Neuromancer is for you again.

also: epic butthurt.



is that a post by roshambo that Awor linked to? Sure sounds like him.

The original right-click menu had the stereotypical references to the Illuminati and deeper, veiled meanings.

Roshambo was also fond of going into peoples profiles and putting pictures and rewriting them - when he would loose an argument.

I heard he is gone so ill not talk badly about him, i told him everything i want anyway, but ill leave it to you faggots to imagine what kind of opinion i had of him.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Now playing or just starting Fallout 3 here would be cool; much more interesting than vault from part one or this nomadic village from two.

Age of Fallout Decadence aka Romans in Fallout.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Fusion batteries are so much more advanced than anything else that it is quite a stretch to imagine them into a near future post apocalyptic setting, same goes for plasma. That kind of tech is something you would not expect in a near future post apocalyptic scenario, yet there it is. It's something you'd expect more in a game in a universe like Star Craft, Star Wars or Star Trek. Certainly not Fallout. Even Lasers are a stretch.

This is what retro-scifi means. It's not realistic scifi, but scifi as how people in the fifties believed the future in 50-100 years would look. In this way the weapons are consistent with that theme. The question is whether it's a good setting to use in the first place.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

Now playing or just starting Fallout 3 here would be cool; much more interesting than vault from part one or this nomadic village from two.

Age of Fallout Decadence aka Romans in Fallout.

I've always wanted a decent RPG with some decent Roman iconography, you could be onto something there...

 

[hiver]

Now that was thematically inappropriate. But luckily only the ending slides.

 

[Ninjerk]

an awor vs hiver thunderdome would be a sight to behold

People, I have been saying this for MONTHS now. The fight card starts with hiver vs. Awor Szurkrarz, followed by Blaine vs. Bradylama, and then IDK, probably BC vs. someone? I'm not up on my drama. Fighters may not post outside the Thunderdome until the winner is decided. Loser takes a long train ride to Prospwitz.

 

[IncendiaryDevice]

People, I have been saying this for MONTHS now. The fight card starts with hiver vs. Awor Szurkrarz, followed by Blaine vs. Bradylama, and then IDK, probably BC vs. someone? I'm not up on my drama. Fighters may not post outside the Thunderdome until the winner is decided. Loser takes a long train ride to Prospwitz.

The first rule of thunderclub is you don't talk about thunderclub, the second rule of thunderclub is you don't talk about Neverwinter Nights.

 

[Gnidrologist]

This is what retro-scifi means. It's not realistic scifi, but scifi as how people in the fifties believed the future in 50-100 years would look. In this way the weapons are consistent with that theme. The question is whether it's a good setting to use in the first place.

More like, the question is how many of that retro 50s stuff should or could be crammed into Fallouts. VaultDveller cited Canticle of Leibowitz to justify the existent of mutated orcs and ghouls, but that is just ONE book. I don't think there are many others in that wain so he is arbitrarily applying his own vision of ''retro 50s sci fi'' using only one tiny source in the first place. I have no doubts, that when examined closely, lot of 50s sci-fi pulp, both in literature and cinema would unveil a lot of silly stuff. Even more silly than talking mutated animals.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Understandable when you know this.

To make things worse, Chris Taylor, the dude that designed a lot of hardware, including weapons and Mr. Handy robot only wrote Fallout 2 manual but didn't take part in game development.
So, some munchkins started adding tons of RL weapons from 40s, 50s and 80s.
It also explains while new robot type is more anime-style, particularly seems to be based on Kodiak Heavy Gear rather than a wacky 50s style like Robobrain and Mr. Handy.

Another weird thing is that some character graphics and animations like the mobster and suit dude and Myron are inconsistent with the Fo1 ones.

BTW, DraQ just found my old post about Fo2 weapons:

That's Fallout 2. Weapons in Fallout 1 were designed by Chris Taylor. Adding RL firearms instead of new fictional ones or leaving the weapons alone was the result of someone else doing it. Chris Taylor only wrote the manual for Fallout 2.

Anyway, modern real life weapons like Jackhammer, G11, P-90, CAWS etc. popping up just before the war doesn't make sense. They were a product of their own world and times. Especially that Fallout's world has it's own weapons - it already has a Winchester combat shotgun, a micro-calibre assault rifle, etc.
Both FN FAL and M3A1 are justified because they are pre-divergence weapons. Still, the Assault Rifle is already an old weapon that was out of use around the time of war. Finding large amounts of FN-FALs doesn't make much sense.
Still, one thing that could be neat would be re-emergence of old designs - for example people like Gunrunners could make WWII/50s era guns just because they don't have technology to make more advanced ones. Sadly, the opportunity was missed and they were making super advanced weapons in a workshop that didn't even have a power source (fucking Feargus Urquhart )

The time just before the war was a time of energy weapons. Assault Rifles were already out of use. Anyway, if they wanted to add new firearms there is some space, but not for the modern RL guns.
For example, Assault Rifle still is made of wood and metal. It seems to be a very old design, probably from the XX century or the beginning of the XXI century. There could be another assault rifle designed before the Energy Weapons era that could be a companion to the Combat Armor and Combat Shotgun. It could be bullpup and named Combat Rifle, or something like that. But they didn't bother to do design and speculation, they just inserted RL guns.

One thing that I find amusing is that the expectation for fictional guns from the sequel was so strong that I thought that all the stuff like FN-FALs, G11s, etc. is fictional just like the Vindicator Minigun and Gauss Rifle. I was very surprised to learn that these are real guns.