KickStarter Underworld Ascendant Pre-Prototype Thread

[Whiran]

Divinity Original Sin asked for only 400.000. The kickstarter was successful, but not anything close to what wasteland 2, torment, broken age, pillars of eternity, etc. 600.000 is a reasonable amount to ask.

If the game will cost way more than 600,000 to make how is asking for 600,000 to make the game a reasonable amount?

To fund their crew for the full development cycle using optimistic (2 year development cycle) numbers (and assuming that the team gets paid well below average wages for their experience levels) it will cost 3.6 million.

Asking for 17% of a very optimistic development cost is reasonable? Chances are development will take longer than two years.

What are you expecting them to do when they run out of money from the kickstarter three months from now? The game, as described, cannot be made for that amount unless the entire team does not get paid at all during development. In that case the 600k more than covers it. Assume $10,000 USD per person for licensing and hardware costs. There are legal fees as well. There are a few other fees. So probably around $200,000 USD. That means they are over-funded by three times with the requested amount. So maybe the team will take a "living wage" for the duration of development - around $1,500 - $2,000 USD / month depending where they are. With 15 people on the team that's still 45,000 - 60,000 per month in wages. Over two years that's 1,080,000 to $1,440,000 which the 600k does not cover and the amount does not include hardware, licenses, legal, any additional operational costs....

If they have additional funding to cover the rest of the development (at least 2.8 million) then why are they going to Kickstarter in the first place? Is it for marketing purposes? For pre-sales? If that is the case isn't that contrary to the spirit of Kickstarter? (does that even really matter?)

The amount of money they are asking for doesn't make sense no matter how I look at it.

 

[Xenich]

Yes, i'm aware they had a lot of the game features sorted out, and at the time, they were an already stabilished company. But 90%? no way.

Well, I won't argue over the exact percentage, but they were mostly done with the game when the KS began. That is a fact that can be verified via the KS campaigns and various statements made by them.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

The mistake is they asked 600.000 hoping they would get 1.000.000. Which was divinity's case. Anyway, they probably will have a paypal account, and intend to have it released on steam early access, which hopeful will keep a steady income. Of couse, that may turn out like a peter molyneux/tim schafer fiasco. It's a kickstarter, it's a risk. Even divinity didn't fulfill it's promises, and deliverance: kingdom come also got very little money for an ambitious project, and now they double their pledges through their website.

I don't know if mindx2 asked any questions refering to the amount, but if not, this issue seems only a problem now that the game is getting funds on a very slow rate.

 

[Gord]

If they have additional funding to cover the rest of the development (at least 2.8 million) then why are they going to Kickstarter in the first place? Is it for marketing purposes? For pre-sales? If that is the case isn't that contrary to the spirit of Kickstarter? (does that even really matter?)

The amount of money they are asking for doesn't make sense no matter how I look at it.

It has been stated numerous times now that they admitted having additional funding.
Why do a KS then? More funding to fill some gaps (we don't know the details of their other funds) and publicity, I guess.
And it's likely they were hoping for more, but probably getting at least 600k is still better for them than getting nothing (when failing their more ambitious "intended" goal).

 

[Darkzone]

Divinity Original Sin asked for only 400.000. The kickstarter was successful, but not anything close to what wasteland 2, torment, broken age, pillars of eternity, etc. 600.000 is a reasonable amount to ask.

D:OS was 90% finished when they went to KS where they specifically stated that they were not asking for the game to be made, that it was already nearly finished, rather it was money to spend time fleshing out the content in the game that would otherwise not exist without the KS. So I think there is a bit of difference here in that.

Never 90%, more 40%. They had many assets and the engine, but at the end they had to rework many things like the town buildings, and that resulted that the entire Larian team (around 40 people) worked on D:OS for an entire year, and many are still working.

If the game will cost way more than 600,000 to make how is asking for 600,000 to make the game a reasonable amount?
To fund their crew for the full development cycle using optimistic (2 year development cycle) numbers (and assuming that the team gets paid well below average wages for their experience levels) it will cost 3.6 million.
Asking for 17% of a very optimistic development cost is reasonable? Chances are development will take longer than two years.

Yes that is a good estimation. Around 2.4mio - 3.6mio will this fun cost.

If they have additional funding to cover the rest of the development (at least 2.8 million) then why are they going to Kickstarter in the first place? Is it for marketing purposes? For pre-sales? If that is the case isn't that contrary to the spirit of Kickstarter? (does that even really matter?) The amount of money they are asking for doesn't make sense no matter how I look at it.

Why do they go to the kickstarter? Because it is also value in advertising their game through ks, and this is also one of the same reason Larian went ks. Kickstarter lives through projects, and if kickstarter has to few good projects it will fade away. So be glad that they use this medium.

 

[CyberP]

Reminder: The Shock 2 stream begins in a couple hours.

 

[Infinitron]

Bah, Kickstarter is down: http://status.kickstarter.com/

EDIT: Back up.

 

[AwesomeButton]

....aaaand twitch.tv is down as well (what a surprise).

 

[Infinitron]

All right, all you whiners, fanboys, etc, here's our report: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...exian-visit-to-otherside-entertainment.97370/

 

[Infinitron]

SS2 livestream is on:

 

[tindrli]

sad...

 

[Irenaeus]

What is sad?

 

[AstroZombie]

That this still hasn't been funded, probably will though.

 

[Metro]

Going to be much closer than I thought. Kicktrack had this at a million just about a week ago. The funding rate has nosedived to the point where it'll probably be just a thousand or so over... if that.

 

[Infinitron]

$550k of funding reached, with 8 days left to go. If they can maintain the current rate, it'll reach its funding goal right before the last days rush.

 

[Metro]

It'll fall short by the $25 I won't pledge. Everyone will blame me.

 

[Infinitron]

It'll fall short by the $25 I won't pledge. Everyone will blame me.

I plan to increase my pledge at some point. If you want, I'll give you dibs on my early bird $20 slot.

 

[Metro]

That's $20 I'd rather spend on Darkest Dungeon. My last comment was facetious -- I'm loathe to back any Kickstarter now that won't pay off for another two or three years. I'd just as soon as wait to see some progress and buy it through their store at a higher price.

Will back Bard's Tale 4, though, because Fargo.

 

[mindx2]

That's $20 I'd rather spend on Darkest Dungeon. My last comment was facetious -- I'm loathe to back any Kickstarter now that won't pay off for another two or three years. I'd just as soon as wait to see some progress and buy it through their store at a higher price.

Will back Bard's Tale 4, though, because Fargo.

I wouldn't fault you for waiting IF this was already funded and didn't need your $20 but they aren't there yet and do need every dollar. I hope you reconsider...

 

[Metro]

If it comes down to the 11th hour I'll reconsider. But somehow I think if they're only $20 short one of their mothers will buy a copy.

 

[Bubbles]

I wouldn't be surprised if they'd already put 200k of their own cash into this KS when it launched

 

[Tigranes]

Does anything surprise you, Bubbles?

 

[Bubbles]

A wise man is prepared for everything and expects nothing.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

I feel the same vibe from the designers. Rather than having an initial vision, and sticking to it, they seem to be appealing to all audiences, by backtracking and double-talk, basically marketing-speak. Everytime someone has a complaint, they counter it with, "here's a demonstration of better graphics!!1" rather than sucking it up and ignoring initial criticism. I recall the early Irrational speaking about Looking Glass, and how their failure was somehow due to lack of coherency in sticking to a plan, and comparing notes, my initial impression of this, too, was bland, in that it seemed in the early stages of core gameplay design, yet was asking for money. A good presentation upfront might have benefited them better, and perhaps a little forethought to the design. As they mentioned in one interview, Thief started off as a melee game, then they took fighting out of it. Good emergent gameplay relies on refinement, and a core concept upfront, rather than wheeling back and changing design to appeal to whatever bland audience comes across. The pseudo-class thing comes across as somewhat like Bioshock, homogenized in that they are talking about every class learning every ability, which homogenized the design eventually, rather than restricting choices to player-driven decisions; also, classes themselves come across artificial and derivative, in the same manner as System Shock 2. when they make no direct impact, and in fact detract from gameplay by tacking archetypes superfluously on a character, like a title that is inherently empty of meaning.

Every time someone asks a question, they also seem to adjust the answer accordingly, which means they do not have a vision upfront, a danger to any game, as it compromises design to appeal to a wider audience. I am wary, but retain hope. The recent interview certainly gave more steam to my hopes than my fears, as the gameplay seems to be emerging, and evolving as it goes, though I hope they are refining, also, and not biting off more than they can chew. Nothing like an unfinished game for the fans to complete with patches. However, with Looking Glass being my favorite studio, and enough devs aboard, I am hopeful for a sort of "Looking Glass" revival.

Two things I am grateful for:

1) they are using an engine heavily reliant upon physics. Great for emergent gameplay.

2) EA is not involved in creative design.

I hope they work a bit on the lighting, and atmosphere, ala Thief, as all these things play a role in a game involving suspense and thievery, as well as the survival-sim aspects.

Also, Garrett and SHODAN's voice actors were a great bit to include. Certainly, the marketing plan should have been better narrated on Kickstarter, rather than what feels like a half-hatched chicken egg, asking for fan-funding to be poached.

UI should certainly be minimal. So far the choices land in favor, though the initial appeal was limiting, as it was homogenized, and without much forethought, and the classes themselves and marketing the idea as some sort of immersion sim seemed like the interactible elements in Bioshock, which compromised player-development altogether. In some ways, I hope I am *not* able to go back across that burning bridge, simply because player-driven narrative relies on limiting choices, rather than narrowing them down to one corridor, in order to create more of those "water-cooler" moments.

 

[Infinitron]

$560k, 10,000 backers. That Torment shout-out helped. They might make the goal earlier than I thought if this keeps up.

I feel the same vibe from the designers. Rather than having an initial vision, and sticking to it, they seem to be appealing to all audiences, by backtracking and double-talk, basically marketing-speak. Everytime someone has a complaint, they counter it with, "here's a demonstration of better graphics!!1" rather than sucking it up and ignoring initial criticism.

...

Good emergent gameplay relies on refinement, and a core concept upfront, rather than wheeling back and changing design to appeal to whatever bland audience comes across.

...

Every time someone asks a question, they also seem to adjust the answer accordingly, which means they do not have a vision upfront, a danger to any game, as it compromises design to appeal to a wider audience.

I'm not seeing this at all, and it completely contradicts mindx2's report. Also, aren't you the same guy who just dropped a bunch of idiosyncratic feature requests in the other thread?