Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Unreal Engine 5 - holy shit!

RobotSquirrel

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,961
Location
Adelaide
nanite is going to be the most overhyped and underused feature unless people like downloading multi-terabyte games.

the valley demo is 30GiB packaged for release.

You are kinda right but also kinda wrong as well. Mesh detail isn't going to have nearly as big an impact on file size versus texture resolution.
Nanite's entire purpose is to eliminate LODs by using tessellation to eliminate the user having to make their own. You can still get comparable results by just working harder on your assets and by hand making LOD assets however this is time consuming and sometimes really annoying. Nanites main problem is that if you're going to Millions of verts, each of those verts has a UV and each UV has to have the texel density to make it look good which means bigger textures. This is why lowpoly artists tend to lean heavily on the texture and less on the geometry to make a mesh readable, high poly you run into issues with fine details which is why I'm not a fan I try to keep my tribudgets under 50k where possible. If you're low poly Nanite is not going to benefit you much at all.

Its a biproduct of having to go such high res, you go high res on the mesh you're forcing yourself to then go high res on the texture. Next thing you know your game is 100GB+ which is still surprising given DXT is a thing now.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,522
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
And people are wonder why games are shit nowadays.

Back in the time graphics comprised like 10-20% of development time and resources.
Then it rose to 40-50%.
Nowadays it's 70-80%.

There's no time to develop stuff that actually matters. And no need, though, a lot of chaps drool over graphics alone.

Last time I looked into this topic, I came to this conclusion:-

Graphics have always been a hard, cutting-edge problem for developers of videogames (once again, the clue is in the name :) ) - e.g. doing proper pixelated graphics was just as hard relatively speaking for developers then as doing full 3-d graphics is now. And it was always about a third to a half of developer effort, and apparently (from what I've read) that's stayed constant.

But that's on the programming and gameplay design side. And it must have been affected by the independent development of big third-party game engines like Unreal and Unity. I don't know what the difference would be tailoring an off-the-shelf graphics engine vs. building one from scratch. I mean, I presume tailoring a third-party graphics engine to your game is also quite a hefty task, depending on the game's specialized requirements, and will still take up about a third of developer time (in the sense of developers proper - i.e. game designers and programmers). But I guess it must be somewhat cheaper and easier in the long run, since that's what most developers seem to be doing these days - off the top of my head, I can only think of a few games that have their own purpose built game engines, like Ex Anima or Stellar Tactics.

What has changed is the amount of assets that have to be made for full 3-d games. The more realistic the game, the higher the expectations, the more the sheer amount of stuff you need to be represented in the game. Now on the one hand, that's not a problem for the programmers and designers of the actual gameplay - they just hire in a bunch of specialists who would never be doing any programming or game design anyway. But on the other hand, hiring all those artists, modelers and animators does take a bigger chunk of the total investment, and co-ordinating them all into the development of the game probably takes some extra management time and energy too.

And the bigger the investment, the more assured the ROI has to be, which means the game has to be designed for a bigger, and therefore a lower-common-denominator audience.

It's quite a conundrum. One wishes in one's mind that we could just have fantastic gameplay and fantastic graphics - and the best games do still manage the miracle. But it does seem that the development of graphics has had a cost in terms of game quality, but it's not a direct relation, but rather I think the indirect relation, via the need for bigger teams and therefore more salary and more investment.
 

RobotSquirrel

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
1,961
Location
Adelaide
"dxt"(microsoft name for s3tc) has been a thing for so long that its actually an expired patent.
I'm showing my age a bit. We weren't really able to push DXT to its extremes with Deus Ex until 2009 around the time the DX10 patch came out.
The latest iterations of DirectX are really what allowed us to push the format to that extreme. But maybe assuming they're doing best practice that even DXT's compression isn't good but I somewhat doubt it really. I found DXT to be one of the best formats with impressive results even at 4K. It feels like to me that they're just too uncompromising on their assets.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,492
. If you're low poly Nanite is not going to benefit you much at all.

Nanite's thing is "fine grained occlusion culling"
you just need to remember how bad Boston tanks FO4 framerate and I think same goes for c77 still at several spots regardless of resolution.
(and to think Todd sold Fo4 VR as 90fps, sorry for those eyeballz )
 
Last edited:

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,522
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
Yeah, the decline is because of the changing audiences (or rather the drive by investors to broaden the market for games after they were discovered to be quite popular in the 80s). The decline is from a more specialized to a more general, lowest-common-denominator-serving product.
An astute observation. So how do you keep the quality at the level at which it was 20 years ago?

First of all, you have to decide to do it. For example, USSR had the mandate of the masses to make such decisions, it was part of the state ideology. This ideology was embodied by state censorship, and censorship in art is the only thing that can save art mediums in a market economy. There needs to be an adult in the room who can draw the line when it comes to stupidity. The kind of stupidity that makes other people even more stupid by consuming said product, i.e. stupidity detrimental to society.

The well-being of society was part of USSR's ideology, so it was natural to do it. The anglo-saxon elites, on the other hand, favor the protestant idea of "predestination" or that everything will happen as god wills it, e.g. "if one is destined to drown, he won't die in a fire". Meaning that the elites will give their children an elite education and shelter them from vices, while the plebs can be alcoholics, drug addicts, morons, marvel fans. It's all god's will.

Because of this, the west has no ideology and everything is allowed (with minor politically motivated exceptions). Talking of liberty, there are two kinds of freedom: "freedom from" and "freedom for" (called negative and positive respectively). USSR practiced the latter one. It gave art creators freedom to infuse works of art with the highest values that aim to elevate the man. The west practices freedom from -- from all restraints and sanity. Which results in absolute degeneracy and shit.

It's a deep subject really, with lots of angles and aspects to it. Some random thoughts:-

You have to ask yourself, would the plebs really be elevated by having art they wouldn't buy anyway thrust upon them?

It's interesting that we associate Soviet art with monumental "soviet realism." But that actually only took hold later on. Initially Soviet art promoted modernity and what we would call "degeneracy." Why that initial support and why was it withdrawn?

Putting it in a quick trope, let's say if we leave art to commercialism, you get a lot of "sugar art" - art that serves runaway instincts towards degeneracy, especially among the plebs. But in and of itself, would that be a problem? The liberal hope was that eventually people will become dissatisfied, learn and seek more elevated stuff. Is that wrong? What prevents such a learning process from happening?

At the end of the day, the whole idea of "art" is fundamentally bourgeois anyway, and essentially a secular religion substitute. Without that you have just folk art - things people make for themselves in their local circumstances, whether for religious, decorative, traditional or whimsical reasons.

All that said, things being constituted as they are, I do agree that the State should have a hand on the tiller with art in the nation. But my rationale is also partly roundabout: that way, you can have an underground where "true" art develops and becomes exciting and interesting again.

I suppose the reason I'm schizophrenic about it is that I can never decide whether true art is fundamentally Schopenhauerian or Nietzschean - whether it's meant to give contemplative peace or to stir the blood. If the latter, then you are right: its function should be to represent to the people an ideal that they can collectively strive to create, and the State should police that. But if art is fundamentally contemplative and mystical, then you need that underground.

Why not both? :)
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,396
Watched the Matrix Unreal 5 demo and it is meh, most of those demos have 75% of the logic complexity that run on an actual game stripped so they can look as good as they can. When you take those models and place all the physics simulation, animations, vfx, mesh deformation, Ai, asset streaming, and you name it, you will have problem with performance.

Also, there is abit of disingenous marketing going on with Epic exploiting clueless youtubers. The demos look great because they dont need to run on a PS 4 and not because of Unreal. Most features Unreal 5 touch dont make the graphics better, at least not directly, they only make it easier for AAA artists to export their stuff from Maya and Z-Brush into the Engine without headaches like lightmaps and retopology.

People get really impressed with "billions of triangles", forgetting that at distance, there is zero difference between a 2 billion triangles and a 100.000 triangles at distance and the only thing that would benefit from such detailed mesh is human faces because we are wired out to pay attention to the little details of those but I wasnt overly impressed with the wooden animations. I would be far more impressed if Unreal 5 actually revamped its physics engine for realistic mesh deformation simulation that didnt explode your PC.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,492
People get really impressed with "billions of triangles", forgetting that at distance, there is zero difference between a 2 billion triangles and a 100.000 triangles at distance and the only thing that would benefit

Maybe it's you forgetting how "distance" is not handled all that well currently


like,really?
 

Lutte

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
1,969
Location
DU's mom
Stop being bydlo. There is no difference between UE 4.27 and UE 5.0 except two or three subsystems out of hundreds of subsystems. UE5 is UE 4.28, but hyped for retards to talk about.

People need to stop believing Epic's fake shit.

Remember this UE3 demo?


Not even UE4 games were this detailed a decade later. Sure, now we have 4k textures but lighting is still dogshit compared to this.
 

PapaPetro

Guest
People get really impressed with "billions of triangles", forgetting that at distance, there is zero difference between a 2 billion triangles and a 100.000 triangles at distance and the only thing that would benefit from such detailed mesh is human faces because we are wired out to pay attention to the little details of those but I wasnt overly impressed with the wooden animations. I would be far more impressed if Unreal 5 actually revamped its physics engine for realistic mesh deformation simulation that didnt explode your PC.
How many polygons till its indistinguishable from reality?
Was thinking about this with pixels at Micro Center while starting at the 8k TVs; where it'll just look like a window.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,492
UE3 showcased prefiltered probe lighting for key-scenes requiring constant artist oversight and very expensive precomputation.

UE5 showcases artist-intervention-free stuff and stuff handled inherently that's otherwise a constant tweaking matter.

It's kinda amazing anyone thinks Metro's or C77's far rendering is anywhere near decent and they can move on to some list of "pressing issues" , lol.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,396
People get really impressed with "billions of triangles", forgetting that at distance, there is zero difference between a 2 billion triangles and a 100.000 triangles at distance and the only thing that would benefit from such detailed mesh is human faces because we are wired out to pay attention to the little details of those but I wasnt overly impressed with the wooden animations. I would be far more impressed if Unreal 5 actually revamped its physics engine for realistic mesh deformation simulation that didnt explode your PC.
How many polygons till its indistinguishable from reality?
Was thinking about this with pixels at Micro Center while starting at the 8k TVs; where it'll just look like a window.
Some modern 2020/2021 games, if it wasnt for the PS 4, they are already really close to reality if you look to some assets with good textures in and dont get too close, of course, a current gen game look the way they look more because of all the bullshit they need to do to run on a PS 4. The indistinguishable from reality has more to do with illumination with full raytracing than with just triangle counts.

Have a 100.000 triangle chair and have a 1 million triangle chair for you to compare and they would look different, you would notice some difference but it would be disappointing into the indistinguishable from reality front, but, have 4k textures, made with all the material simulation bs that previous gen consoles cant handle, without agressive LOD tricks and full raytracing illumination and now we are talking.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,123
One can appreciate Unreal Engine 4/5 and excellent 2D DOS artwork.

homm_1-png.2610

The two don't even necessarily need to be mutually exclusive. Look at something like that Dragon Quest 3 remake which combines sprites based graphics, stylized 3D models to match those sprites, and lighting and FX from Unreal Engine 4. That Backbone game is using Unreal too.
 

gurugeorge

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
7,522
Location
London, UK
Strap Yourselves In
For me, it's not so much the visual look that's the problem in modern games, it's the animation (particularly facial animation) and the janky shoulders (weird anatomy when characters twist and turn in certain ways), and just in general animations that aren't smooth and look weird at times. Also rag doll effects looking like thrown puppets.

The other thing that used to annoy me a lot was when characters stand on a slope, but they seem to have sorted that out more or less (a while ago now).

But in terms of just "looking realistic" that's already pretty much fine for my tastes, if you're just talking about a static scene with weather and lighting, or static characters (even just doing idles).

e.g. Cyberpunk 2077 looks spiffy enough in that regard, and actually even the facial and gestural animations in that game (and some others around) are getting pretty good; but characters still have weird necks and shoulders in certain positions, the occasional weird animation/sliding, and little details like that which spoil the illusion when things are moving and interacting.

I'd like to see proper anatomy without weird deformations, non-sliding environment-aware animations, and the full facial sophistication in conversations (like in the Unreal 5 demo). Then I'd be satisfied. How long do experts here reckon it'll be before those problems are cracked?
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
I'd play games with nwn graphics if they were actually good.
And remembering I just played star wars galaxies a bit ago, I already do.

Bunch of graphics whores.
 

Kev Inkline

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Messages
5,113
A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'd play games with nwn graphics if they were actually good.
And remembering I just played star wars galaxies a bit ago, I already do.

Bunch of graphics whores.
I dunno man, my preferred graphics style is pre-rendered isometric followed by ASCII. But if I want to play a 3D game, I really don't dig early 2000s 3D stuff much at all. I draw the line (hehe) at Guild Wars (2005).
 

dacencora

Guest
I'd play games with nwn graphics if they were actually good.
And remembering I just played star wars galaxies a bit ago, I already do.

Bunch of graphics whores.
I dunno man, my preferred graphics style is pre-rendered isometric followed by ASCII. But if I want to play a 3D game, I really don't dig early 2000s 3D stuff much at all. I draw the line (hehe) at Guild Wars (2005).
GW1 still looks quite nice imo. Good art style.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,492
I'd play games with nwn graphics if they were actually good.
And remembering I just played star wars galaxies a bit ago, I already do.

Bunch of graphics whores.

It's called having standards and that's why most of "metaverse" will be fashioned after borderlands to be lapped up accordingly plus the metaverse NFT shit gets showered in money even before release, not to mention id software sold for a pittance vs gearbox .
 

dacencora

Guest
It’s actually only about the art style. It’s easier to have a distinctive art style in 2D. The problem is exacerbated by engines like Unity and UE4/5 where it can be difficult to make your games look different from other games on the engine. A 3D game with a very distinctive art style is Killer is Dead. It can be done in 3D, but because it’s so much work, and the medium is still fairly new, it doesn’t happen all that much. Most games just go for a semi-realistic looking style and a lot of assets are shared between games, giving many of them a uniform look. This is also true of many 3D animated movies. As the medium continues to mature and it gets easier to animate in 3D, more and more distinctive styles will come through.
 

Abhay

Augur
Joined
Aug 12, 2013
Messages
204
Location
India
Absolute waste of power and money. Give me excellent games to play. Not the REAL LIFE GRAPHICS.

Tell me about any developments on the AI front?

What's the point of next level graphics if the people in the world keep getting dumber than a rock?
 

panda

Savant
Joined
Dec 31, 2014
Messages
398
Absolute waste of power and money. Give me excellent games to play. Not the REAL LIFE GRAPHICS.

Tell me about any developments on the AI front?
That's not where money is. I remember watching AI dev lecture few years ago, he was basically saying they don't make smart AI, or even make AI dumb on purpose, with examples. E.g. since i don't play racing titles, that's how i learned about this awesome "rubber band AI". Such design "creativity" really impressed me back then.


Edit: for those who don't know what it is
Cars which got ahead essentially will politely slow down and allow the player to catch up.
 
Last edited:

Bester

⚰️☠️⚱️
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
11,125
Location
USSR
At the end of the day, the whole idea of "art" is fundamentally bourgeois anyway
Art being "bourgeois" is not a defining, but a descriptive characteristic that was true only at a certain time. It's the same when Marx described the proletariat as extremely poor, and now many idiot-"marxists" think that it was a definition. The proletariat is defined by its source of income, nothing else. Today the working class isn't poor anymore, and as such they can afford to consume art as much as the bourgeois could way back when.

Putting it in a quick trope, let's say if we leave art to commercialism, you get a lot of "sugar art" - art that serves runaway instincts towards degeneracy, especially among the plebs. But in and of itself, would that be a problem? The liberal hope was that eventually people will become dissatisfied, learn and seek more elevated stuff. Is that wrong? What prevents such a learning process from happening?
[...]
You have to ask yourself, would the plebs really be elevated by having art they wouldn't buy anyway thrust upon them?
It's a liberal lie, not a liberal hope. It's the same idea that "democracy" works.

Society is not equipped to make smart decisions regarding complicated matters. The more labor becomes specialized, the more people only know one tiny thing. They can't also be excellent historians, philosophers, ethnographers, economists, etc to make decisions on foreign policy or internal economy.

Society is not equipped to form coherent demand for art, either. Society's interests are formed by objective needs or through manipulation. The latter is what forms most of it. Was there an objective need for Cyberpunk 2077? It was a need that was given to them by marketing. The same way, a society can be given a need for positive art that will inspire them, impart them with values, awaken their interest for the eternal. It all comes down to the social system: socialism wants to instill those things, capitalism doesn't. Simply, the goals of the two social systems are different.

A ticket to the Bolshoi was 1 ruble in USSR, which was cheaper than 1 piece of bread. The state attempted to civilize the masses that were all illiterate farmers just two decades ago. For one or two generations, mostly born in the 50s and the whereabouts, they succeeded and produced some of the best minds of the century. Art played a very important role in the formation of those people.

I suppose the reason I'm schizophrenic about it is that I can never decide whether true art is fundamentally Schopenhauerian or Nietzschean - whether it's meant to give contemplative peace or to stir the blood. If the latter, then you are right: its function should be to represent to the people an ideal that they can collectively strive to create, and the State should police that. But if art is fundamentally contemplative and mystical, then you need that underground.
[...]
It's interesting that we associate Soviet art with monumental "soviet realism." But that actually only took hold later on. Initially Soviet art promoted modernity and what we would call "degeneracy." Why that initial support and why was it withdrawn?
I'm not sure there was a support, so much as a lack of oversight.

Let's take painting as an example. All types of art have a rational reason for being, e.g. poetry was born by an objective need for rhyming, which helped memorize difficult and long texts. Painting's initial and rational goal was to portray things - there was simply no other way to do it. But then photography removed that objective need in the beginning of the 20th century. Painters became reactionary towards photography and needed to find a way for the art to evolve. Two ways emerged. 1. infuse paintings with socially-important content, and 2. a formal self-expression, which is a dead-end. All kinds of schizophrenics and charlatans went the second way.

The early soviet era was characterized by a certain amount of chaos and freedom to do anything. A lot of experimentation took place. The military had removed ranks even, trying something new. Suprematism and other modernist "art" was allowed to sneak in at that time, thankfully only for a few years.

Art is social, as its defining characteristic. As such, it must be socially useful. The meaningless, modernist self-expression in art is:
a) not interesting -- Someone will smear shit all over his face and say "this is me, this is my art." Who gives a fuck? This is not socially useful and hence a dead end.
b) contributes to degeneracy -- makes people stupid, atomizes society and makes it less prone to resist the elites. The guy smearing shit all over himself as "art" is the symbol of this violence by the elites: they make you literally "eat shit."

Furthermore
 
Last edited:

PapaPetro

Guest
How many polygons till its indistinguishable from reality?
It is not the number of polygons. The problem is the basic knowledge of human anatomy...

l-l-echo-02.jpg
So it's aesthetics and not technology that's holding back the technique.
Maybe it's their way of dumbing down reality to fit into computers?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom