World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[True Ukrainian]

From my pnp days, I recall that True Faith requires the character to believe wholeheartedly in a "higher power". It does not need to be actually divine in the religious sense, just that the character himself regards it as a higher power.

My GM allowed characters who believed in the invisible hand of the market to have true faith under this interpretation of the rules. The vampire who tried to feed on that guy would lose all his disciplines since his need to feed was not driven by supernatural hunger, but by his inability to find regular employment.

 

[Beastro]

The vampire who tried to feed on that guy would lose all his disciplines since his need to feed was not driven by supernatural hunger, but by his inability to find regular employment.

That's so fucking nerdy but oddly awesome.

 

[Wesp5]

From my pnp days, I recall that True Faith requires the character to believe wholeheartedly in a "higher power".

Sorry, but I wouldn't understand that. Why should True Belief in the invisible hand of the market do something e.g. to a Ventrue? Nothing, he is playing the field himself. Nosfeartu hackers would laugh and kill people believing in Apple or Steam! To me with the WoD history that all vampires are descendants of the biblical Caine, only True Faith in God makes sense, who was the one who started the thing in the whole place. Why should any vampire bother about people believing in something else?

 

[True Ukrainian]

From my pnp days, I recall that True Faith requires the character to believe wholeheartedly in a "higher power".

Sorry, but I wouldn't understand that. Why should True Belief in the invisible hand of the market do something e.g. to a Ventrue? Nothing, he is playing the field himself. Nosfeartu hackers would laugh and kill people believing in Apple or Steam! To me with the WoD history that all vampires are descendants of the biblical Caine, only True Faith in God makes sense, who was the one who started the thing in the whole place. Why should any vampire bother about people believing in something else?

Its not whether the vampire believes, but whether the target believes. It is the target's belief that makes faith "true" and truth gives faith the power to fuck vampires up.

 

[Prime Junta]

Why should True Belief in the invisible hand of the market do something e.g. to a Ventrue? Nothing, he is playing the field himself.

Objection! The Ventrue don't believe in the invisible hand of the market. On the contrary, they're cold-blooded cynical capitalists. They know that the invisible hand is a convenient myth to keep the plebs from rebelling, and who's really in control.

A genuine naive true-believing libertarian who really truly believes that everyone would be happy, free, and exactly as wealthy as they deserve if only the free market was left completely alone to do its thing is not the least bit like a Ventrue.

 

[Wesp5]

It is the target's belief that makes faith "true" and truth gives faith the power to fuck vampires up.

Why would that work if the faith isn't connected to something religious? Like did God say: "No man shall slay Caine, and his descendents will be vulnerable to everyone who really believes some bullshit!"

 

[Prime Junta]

It is the target's belief that makes faith "true" and truth gives faith the power to fuck vampires up.

Why would that work if the faith isn't connected to something religious? Like did God say: "No man shall slay Caine, and his descendents will be vulnerable to everyone who really believes some bullshit!"

If I was adjudicating, I would rule that the belief has to include the idea that whatever it is, it is effective against vampires. God, check. The Christ, check. Buddha, dhamma, sangha, check. Linux, Lenin, or capitalism... uh, maybe not.

However, I would rule that true faith in materialism – the non-existence of the supernatural – would qualify. "Hah, go away, you're not even real," <tips fedora>. In other words, your true-believing atheist would be able to banish a vampire simply by truly believing he doesn't exist.

 

[Prime Junta]

That ought to fail automatically when presented with *evidence* of supernatural. You can only have Belief in materialism, not faith.

A truly faithful materialist would have no trouble at all dismissing such evidence. Hallucinations, practical jokes, movie being filmed, goth masquerade ball, LARP, nightmares... take your pick. True faith laughs in the face of your piddly "evidence."

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

You are confounding dis-belief with faith. Faith is a positive substantiation. There is a God. There is afterlife, Jesus is watching over me etc. The faithful do not dispel supernatural by saying that there is a God hence no vampires. They have faith that the object of faith *protects* them.

 

[fantadomat]

What a bunch of retards,arguing what a true fate is . What is next,arguments about if the sky is blue?

 

[Prime Junta]

You are confounding dis-belief with faith. Faith is a positive substantiation. There is a God. There is afterlife, Jesus is watching over me etc. The faithful do not dispel supernatural by saying that there is a God hence no vampires. They have faith that the object of faith *protects* them.

Doesn't matter. In both cases, the point is an unshakeable faith that the vampire has no power over you. For the Christian, it's because God protects him. For the atheist, it's because the vampire isn't real.

Consider that perennial early-teen favourite challenge, spending the night in a haunted house. A true-believing Christian would have no qualms taking that challenge, knowing that God and His angels will watch over him and allow him to come to no harm. A true-believing atheist would feel the same, knowing that there are no ghosts and the haunted house is just an abandoned, decrepit building. Should a ghost emerge, the Christian would take refuge in God, the atheist in the certain knowledge that it must be his friends playing a prank at his expense.

 

[Cael]

You are confounding dis-belief with faith. Faith is a positive substantiation. There is a God. There is afterlife, Jesus is watching over me etc. The faithful do not dispel supernatural by saying that there is a God hence no vampires. They have faith that the object of faith *protects* them.

Doesn't matter. In both cases, the point is an unshakeable faith that the vampire has no power over you. For the Christian, it's because God protects him. For the atheist, it's because the vampire isn't real.

Consider that perennial early-teen favourite challenge, spending the night in a haunted house. A true-believing Christian would have no qualms taking that challenge, knowing that God and His angels will watch over him and allow him to come to no harm. A true-believing atheist would feel the same, knowing that there are no ghosts and the haunted house is just an abandoned, decrepit building. Should a ghost emerge, the Christian would take refuge in God, the atheist in the certain knowledge that it must be his friends playing a prank at his expense.

Except in WoD, spectres, ghosts or whatever the fuck you call them are real, so while the Christian's faith will save him, the atheist's false belief that his friends are responsible (they aren't) will get him eaten. Atheists, by definition, do not have faith.

 

[Riddler]

You are confounding dis-belief with faith. Faith is a positive substantiation. There is a God. There is afterlife, Jesus is watching over me etc. The faithful do not dispel supernatural by saying that there is a God hence no vampires. They have faith that the object of faith *protects* them.

Doesn't matter. In both cases, the point is an unshakeable faith that the vampire has no power over you. For the Christian, it's because God protects him. For the atheist, it's because the vampire isn't real.

Consider that perennial early-teen favourite challenge, spending the night in a haunted house. A true-believing Christian would have no qualms taking that challenge, knowing that God and His angels will watch over him and allow him to come to no harm. A true-believing atheist would feel the same, knowing that there are no ghosts and the haunted house is just an abandoned, decrepit building. Should a ghost emerge, the Christian would take refuge in God, the atheist in the certain knowledge that it must be his friends playing a prank at his expense.

It seems a shit-ton easier to maintain faith when confronted with the supernatural when you actually believe in the supernatural.

 

[Prime Junta]

Except in WoD, spectres, ghosts or whatever the fuck you call them are real, so while the Christian's faith will save him, the atheist's false belief that his friends are responsible (they aren't) will get him eaten. Atheists, by definition, do not have faith.

Except that WoD lore specifically states that it doesn't matter if your faith is in an object that's real. It's the faith that does the trick, not the object of the faith.

It seems a shit-ton easier to maintain faith when confronted with the supernatural when you actually believe in the supernatural.

Exactly. And the definition of faith is belief in the absence of, or contrary to, evidence. So in the WoD, an atheist needs that much more faith. Atheist exorcist best exorcist!

 

[Cael]

Except in WoD, spectres, ghosts or whatever the fuck you call them are real, so while the Christian's faith will save him, the atheist's false belief that his friends are responsible (they aren't) will get him eaten. Atheists, by definition, do not have faith.

Except that WoD lore specifically states that it doesn't matter if your faith is in an object that's real. It's the faith that does the trick, not the object of the faith.

It seems a shit-ton easier to maintain faith when confronted with the supernatural when you actually believe in the supernatural.

Exactly. So in the WoD, an atheist needs that much more faith. Atheist exorcist best exorcist!

Science is not faith. This is the same reason why greenie-ism is a religion and why Christians cannot be greenies. An atheist relies on science, not faith. They do not have faith. They utterly reject the notion of belief and faith. That is why they are atheists and not agnostics.

 

[Prime Junta]

Science is not faith. This is the same reason why greenie-ism is a religion and why Christians cannot be greenies. An atheist relies on science, not faith. They do not have faith. They utterly reject the notion of belief and faith. That is why they are atheists and not agnostics.

You've really worked hard for that dumbfuck tag of yours, haven't you Cael?

 

[Riddler]

Except in WoD, spectres, ghosts or whatever the fuck you call them are real, so while the Christian's faith will save him, the atheist's false belief that his friends are responsible (they aren't) will get him eaten. Atheists, by definition, do not have faith.

Except that WoD lore specifically states that it doesn't matter if your faith is in an object that's real. It's the faith that does the trick, not the object of the faith.

It seems a shit-ton easier to maintain faith when confronted with the supernatural when you actually believe in the supernatural.

Exactly. And the definition of faith is belief in the absence of, or contrary to, evidence. So in the WoD, an atheist needs that much more faith. Atheist exorcist best exorcist!

Truly retarded amounts of faith. It seems to me that 1-5 dot atheists with true faith couldn't really exist.

 

[Prime Junta]

Truly retarded amounts of faith. It seems to me that 1-5 dot atheists with true faith couldn't really exist.

How do you figure? There are people with retarded amounts of faith in truly absurd propositions in our continuum.

to pick an example at random: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)

 

[Cael]

Science is not faith. This is the same reason why greenie-ism is a religion and why Christians cannot be greenies. An atheist relies on science, not faith. They do not have faith. They utterly reject the notion of belief and faith. That is why they are atheists and not agnostics.

You've really worked hard for that dumbfuck tag of yours, haven't you Cael?

The fact that you had to hide behind infinishit's passive-aggressive nonsense is proof that you really have no argument, prime cunta.

 

[Riddler]

Truly retarded amounts of faith. It seems to me that 1-5 dot atheists with true faith couldn't really exist.

How do you figure? There are people with retarded amounts of faith in truly absurd propositions in our continuum.

to pick an example at random: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)

To actively disbelieve the supernatural in the literal presence of the supernatural requires self-delusion on a whole other level from just believing that God will protect you or that aliens are real.

The existence of God and Aliens are unfalsifiable, the accuracy of atheism is not. How many atheists would still exist if god literally came down to earth?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Truly retarded amounts of faith. It seems to me that 1-5 dot atheists with true faith couldn't really exist.

How do you figure? There are people with retarded amounts of faith in truly absurd propositions in our continuum.

to pick an example at random: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)

To actively disbelieve the supernatural in the literal presence of the supernatural requires self-delusion on a whole other level from just believing that God will protect you or that aliens are real.

The existence of God and Aliens are unfalsifiable, the accuracy of atheism is not. How many atheists would still exist if god literally came down to earth?

You're describing the ending of Pillars of Eternity.

 

[Roguey]

Doesn't the faith require the belief that the higher power will save you? How can one honestly believe the free market or whatever non-godlike power will save them from a vampire immediately?

 

[Prime Junta]

To actively disbelieve the supernatural in the literal presence of the supernatural requires self-delusion on a whole other level from just believing that God will protect you or that aliens are real.

The existence of God and Aliens are unfalsifiable, the accuracy of atheism is not. How many atheists would still exist if god literally came down to earth?

I have no idea. But I bet they'd be able to repel vampires through the strength of their non-belief in them.

I also know plenty of atheists with deeply irrational beliefs, and they're just as impervious to evidence as anyone. IME atheists are no more rational than anyone else, although they certainly like to claim they are.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Doesn't the faith require the belief that the higher power will save you? How can one honestly believe the free market or whatever non-godlike power will save them from a vampire immediately?

ahem
https://insider.foxnews.com/2019/02/10/god-emperor-trump-float-rolls-through-parade-italy

 

[Sacred82]

Doesn't the faith require the belief that the higher power will save you? How can one honestly believe the free market or whatever non-godlike power will save them from a vampire immediately?

apparently it does

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/True_Faith

and not because anything actually protects you, but because what you believe becomes reality in the face of a vampire