World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Prime Junta]

I read an article saying this new game takes place in 19th century Seattle? It doesnt look like it from screens and videos.

It's a direct sequel of VtM:B that takes place in 19th century Seattle. Cainedidit.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well, that at least explains why the connection between lighting and the modification to proximity allowed seems so odd and arbitrary.

I guess the Source engine that Troika had to work with had nothing regarding to stealth, so they had to improvise.
Master: The changed stealth stats stay so this might be the reason why many people find stealth much too easy.

I'd say that serves an important purpose for atmosphere and aesthetics.

I agree to that, especially for the museum entrance. It was originally only planned for the Prelude mod and created by EntenSchreck, but I added another small downtown area he had build after a beta screenshot and devised a way to enter the museum in a much less sudden fashion than in the original game. I'm pretty sure Troika intended to do this at one time too, because the entrance textures were already in the game files and the prince even says that he gives you the front door keys!

It leaves only Hallowbrook Hotel as kind of a question mark in terms of location and approach, but that's mostly just because the place is well within range for LaCroix to throw small rocks at the local Sabbat from his window.

I think here again the restored atrium map explains a little bit better how you get from a window cleaning elevator inside the building. Again we found all of the railing and elevator models unused in the game files, EntenSchreck build the map and I filled it with life.

As for the library quest story, we really had to improvise there! I emailed Brian Mitsoda about it early on after we discovered a lot of unused library models and textures, but he only remembered that it was connected to a main character and an optional Sabbat miniboss. The main character was Beckett because the library card had his name on it, but we had nothing else! I then found the ritual cave model which is also visible in some beta screenshots and had burgermeister from Clan Quest Mod fame build the library after my plans on top of it. Much latter I added the smoke shop, the coffee shop and the pier ending to make the player move around a bit more! I'm open to any suggestions in which this can be improved by using only the levels that are already involved !

Yea, IIRC didn't you just walk into Hallowbrook from the front in the release version?

Anyway, point wasn't so much in regards to the place existing in the world (or not, in case of release version museum exterior), but rather the placement and the massive scale of it. Like I said, it's kind of amusing that the Sabbat are shacked up within rock-hucking range of LaCroix. It sort of makes for the comedic image of a scowling neighbourhood since with the Last Round added in it seems everyone's just decided that they like that particular road in Downtown.



As for suggestions for the locations and library quest, the smoke shop I feel seems to add just that tiny bit of extra too much running around without much that actually happens. You go in, and pick up a note. It's largely inconsequential to tracking down Beckett's contact from the closed coffee shop to the pier. My suggestion would rather be to first get directions from Beckett to go to the coffee shop, where the laptop contains the log and the directions to the next point of interest, the pier. In regards to the pier, I feel it might be a neat idea to have Sabbat appear to be looking for the next clue themselves rather than waiting to ambush you, it makes them seem more proactive; possibly also add in a pair of additional Sabbat coming down the pier after you find the clue as rest of the pack (similarly, I'd feel that the library section might benefit from removing the second guard and instead introduce means by which Sabbat would be keeping watch and protecting the hustle they're working on down below instead of a one-man show). Clue found at the pier then directs to the smoke shop and the last information and the means to enter the library. This is also a bit more convenient in terms of where the Santa Monica section of the quest finishes is closer to the taxi/sewers. As noted before, the text is notably weaker than the rest of the game (example, I feel it's just poor form to directly refer to a Discipline by name, or the convenience of having learned it), so it could be worked on further as well.

Also the music in the library main level is just delightful, I should mention.

 

[Master]

Here is the article

https://www.pcgamesn.com/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2/gameplay
Dumbfuck journalist thought it was 19th century

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Probably made the mistake of 19th century = 19XX

Or maybe mixed it up with Redemption

 

[Master]

Maybe he saw that gas-like streetlight and fog and thought so.

 

[Master]

Another article where they mention 19th century
https://medium.com/@playkey/what-do-we-know-about-vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-2-d034168b2ff8
Confusing shit!

 

[Raghar]

Which rpg rewards most for no killing?

Deus Ex.

That's FPS. And considering main character is a cop, it would be very weird when other characters would be happy with killing spree.

 

[Cael]

Which rpg rewards most for no killing?

Deus Ex.

That's FPS. And considering main character is a cop, it would be very weird when other characters would be happy with killing spree.

But the option must be given without any consequence or it is not "incline".

 

[Master]

Which rpg rewards most for no killing?

Deus Ex.

That's FPS. And considering main character is a cop, it would be very weird when other characters would be happy with killing spree.

DX is a fps rpg...

 

[Wesp5]

Anyway, point wasn't so much in regards to the place existing in the world (or not, in case of release version museum exterior), but rather the placement and the massive scale of it. Like I said, it's kind of amusing that the Sabbat are shacked up within rock-hucking range of LaCroix. It sort of makes for the comedic image of a scowling neighbourhood since with the Last Round added in it seems everyone's just decided that they like that particular road in Downtown.

Yeah, downtown is quite small, but I guess that is due to the Source engine alpha version that Troika had to work with at the time. Still it always annoyed me to enter the Hallowbrook using a window cleaning elevator only to end up inside a stairway with no windows in sight! The Hallowbrook Atrium was definitely planned to be there, besides the assets mentioned above we even found a disabled level transition from la_bradury_2.bsp to the at the time not yet existing la_bradbury_1.bsp !

In regards to the pier, I feel it might be a neat idea to have Sabbat appear to be looking for the next clue themselves rather than waiting to ambush you, it makes them seem more proactive; possibly also add in a pair of additional Sabbat coming down the pier after you find the clue as rest of the pack (similarly, I'd feel that the library section might benefit from removing the second guard and instead introduce means by which Sabbat would be keeping watch and protecting the hustle they're working on down below instead of a one-man show). Clue found at the pier then directs to the smoke shop and the last information and the means to enter the library.

While it would be possible to add more enemies to the pier and the library, I had the impression the Lasombra is not part of the main Sabbat organisation in LA which is headed by Andrei so he wouldn't have access to as many vampires. Also the last hint to the library should be where Scott was abducted and should not be in the smoke shop where everybody could read it. But maybe I can have the note on the pier point to the coffee shop and thus swap those two locations around? I'll think about it...

As noted before, the text is notably weaker than the rest of the game (example, I feel it's just poor form to directly refer to a Discipline by name, or the convenience of having learned it), so it could be worked on further as well.

All the text is mine and I'm not even a native English speaker and I have little WoD knowledge besides what I picked up from the game . So I'm open to suggestions! I didn't know e.g. that Discipline names are not to be mentioned. How do vampires talk about their powers instead? Do they paraphrase them?

Also the music in the library main level is just delightful, I should mention.

This is an unused Bloodlines piece by Rik Schaffer, who gave it to me to restore !

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Wesp5

Have any of the former vtmb devs contributed to the patch?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Anyway, point wasn't so much in regards to the place existing in the world (or not, in case of release version museum exterior), but rather the placement and the massive scale of it. Like I said, it's kind of amusing that the Sabbat are shacked up within rock-hucking range of LaCroix. It sort of makes for the comedic image of a scowling neighbourhood since with the Last Round added in it seems everyone's just decided that they like that particular road in Downtown.

Yeah, downtown is quite small, but I guess that is due to the Source engine alpha version that Troika had to work with at the time. Still it always annoyed me to enter the Hallowbrook using a window cleaning elevator only to end up inside a stairway with no windows in sight! The Hallowbrook Atrium was definitely planned to be there, besides the assets mentioned above we even found a disabled level transition from la_bradury_2.bsp to the at the time not yet existing la_bradbury_1.bsp !

In regards to the pier, I feel it might be a neat idea to have Sabbat appear to be looking for the next clue themselves rather than waiting to ambush you, it makes them seem more proactive; possibly also add in a pair of additional Sabbat coming down the pier after you find the clue as rest of the pack (similarly, I'd feel that the library section might benefit from removing the second guard and instead introduce means by which Sabbat would be keeping watch and protecting the hustle they're working on down below instead of a one-man show). Clue found at the pier then directs to the smoke shop and the last information and the means to enter the library.

While it would be possible to add more enemies to the pier and the library, I had the impression the Lasombra is not part of the main Sabbat organisation in LA which is headed by Andrei so he wouldn't have access to as many vampires. Also the last hint to the library should be where Scott was abducted and should not be in the smoke shop where everybody could read it. But maybe I can have the note on the pier point to the coffee shop and thus swap those two locations around? I'll think about it...

As noted before, the text is notably weaker than the rest of the game (example, I feel it's just poor form to directly refer to a Discipline by name, or the convenience of having learned it), so it could be worked on further as well.

All the text is mine and I'm not even a native English speaker and I have little WoD knowledge besides what I picked up from the game . So I'm open to suggestions! I didn't know e.g. that Discipline names are not to be mentioned. How do vampires talk about their powers instead? Do they paraphrase them?

Also the music in the library main level is just delightful, I should mention.

This is an unused Bloodlines piece by Rik Schaffer, who gave it to me to restore !

There isn't really that much that could be done to add an "approach" to Hallowbrook without relocating the area itself, and that's where I suppose even that Chateau Hotel map wouldn't work entirely.

And yes, moving the coffee shop in the quest progression seems like a very good call. Change it around so that the computer logs will cover the library and the secret ritual there, and way to get in, so it's the natural end for the Santa Monica segment of the quest. The pier would need some signs of struggle (as it has, bloodstains IIRC, don't recall if there were stains that look like someone was dragged away) with a key to the coffee shop to indicate that the contact was captured and the most logical place to follow the trail is the coffee shop. The player might have noticed the interaction prompts and the notice on the shop earlier and it is on the bus stop maps in the area, so they can puzzle it together just from the key's description (with maybe just a specification that the address on the key chain is for Santa Monica, and not Hollywood since the moving notice might cause someone who has seen it before head towards Hollywood first). It'd also make it seem that the Sabbat that arrives has tailed you to the place from the pier.

In regards to Sabbat structure, Sabbat appears chaotic on the lower levels due to their use of Mass Embraces to create expendable shovelhead shock troopers. Above that, there is a very strict hierarchy (this is part of very important worldbuilding in the game, everything that Jack, LaCroix, Isaac and everyone else tells the player is only scratching the surface). There would be no parallel Sabbat in LA, and the Lasombra especially would be under the direct authority of Andrei. Most likely the Lasombra would be a Bishop or Priscus. Or alternative the Lasombra is a rogue infernalist or secretly Baali, which judging by the ritual is very much a possibility (and this indeed would put them directly at odds with Andrei and the rest of the Sabbat, they have kind of a zero tolerance policy in regards to infernalism and any other deviations from Sabbat orthodoxy).

In terms of the writing thing, I'd imagine that a vampire keeping a log would not feel it worth mentioning about use of Disciplines except in the most extreme circumstances. It's more than anything a matter of natural sounding English, as this is something that's meant to read as though written by a character for a journal entry. This isn't something the rest of the game is immune to either tho, there are some very jarring bits by Troika where characters write narration of stuff happening to them as it happens. My personal theory is that the Ocean House victim ghost got murdered because her husband was driven insane by her compulsive writing of journals whenever anything was going on. What is a mystery is if this was just straight-up mistake on Troika's part, or that they simply thought the audience wouldn't understand anything less subtle than a sledgehammer that after the last entry of the journal the writer was murdered by her husband (or in another case, that the sewer worker was eaten by Szlachta).

 

[Nano]

And considering main character is a cop

No he isn't. He's a government agent, and that's only for, like, the first quarter of the game.

 

[Wesp5]

Have any of the former vtmb devs contributed to the patch?

Not directly, but I had email contact with Brian Mitsoda about some of the unused contact and he told me everything that he could remember. I contacted Rik Schaffer myself after I found unused music from him on the internet and asked for permission to include it and afterwards he gave outstarwalker and me links for other leftover pieces that he had found!

 

[Wesp5]

And yes, moving the coffee shop in the quest progression seems like a very good call. Change it around so that the computer logs will cover the library and the secret ritual there, and way to get in, so it's the natural end for the Santa Monica segment of the quest. The pier would need some signs of struggle (as it has, bloodstains IIRC, don't recall if there were stains that look like someone was dragged away) with a key to the coffee shop to indicate that the contact was captured and the most logical place to follow the trail is the coffee shop.

That's about what I was planning, but there is a problem here already, because there is no free key item to be used anymore! I thought about just having a note showing the coffee shop logo or something, but still with this solution we would get two magically opened doors where before it could at least be reasoned, that Scott opened the coffee shop before going to the pier.

Or alternative the Lasombra is a rogue infernalist or secretly Baali, which judging by the ritual is very much a possibility (and this indeed would put them directly at odds with Andrei and the rest of the Sabbat, they have kind of a zero tolerance policy in regards to infernalism and any other deviations from Sabbat orthodoxy).

Interesting. I completely made this ritual up, as kind of a test for the new guy, so if there could be some WoD canon behind it, please explain !

In terms of the writing thing, I'd imagine that a vampire keeping a log would not feel it worth mentioning about use of Disciplines except in the most extreme circumstances.

Okay, I'll try to reword it, which probably is necessary anyway, if I decide to move the order of the places around that you need to visit...

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Some note or other form of clue is needed then.

Also if you wish you can send me the text, I'll edit it a bit if you don't mind.


Anyway, in regards to the thing with infernalists and Sabbat, a little backstory. Demons do exist in the World of Darkness, albeit this is a very confusing quagmire because Demon: The Fallen is by far the biggest wrench ever thrown at the unified setting of WoD, so we aren't going to touch at the messy divisions of what exactly are described as demons by the unknowing and what are Demons. There is a form of vampiric blood magic that bargains with these dark entities from beyond material reality, called Dark Thaumaturgy. Infernalism is something of a problem for Sabbat, as while it is much harder for infernalists to hide within Camarilla and Anarchs for instance because of their subscription to Humanity and near total absence of Paths of Enlightenment in the Sabbat abandoning Humanity is the default so they can hide among monsters. However, in Sabbat dogma submission to any form of demon is just the same as submission to the Antediluvians and runs counter to the Sabbat's all-encompassing mission of war against the Antediluvians. So for these reasons (vulnerability to infernalist infiltration due to abandoning Humanity, and need to maintain Sabbat orthodoxy) there exists a Sabbat Inquisition for the sole purpose of finding and killing infernalists. This is where it should be noted that if we assume that the doorman of the Crackhouse is a Sabbat vampire, he would most likely also be an infernalist infiltrator.

The Baali are a bloodline of unknown origin, dating back to ancient Mesopotamia (also as a curio, one of the 4th Generation Baali was possibly the first vampire in the Americas and possibly the megaest mega-NPC; note there that Baali are the only bloodline that has multiple 4th Generation Methuselahs which makes them closer to a Clan than a bloodline, heck they're more of a real Clan than Tremere and Giovanni) that is characterized by three qualities: Most Baali are part of a network of demon-worshipping doomsday cults, Baali can turn other vampires into pseudo-Baali through a blood magic ritual, and Baali Discipline Daimonion appears to draw power from Hell itself. Since the Middle Ages, most Baali operate as solitary infiltrators and do not reveal their bloodline. Following the purge of Tremere Antitribu (Sabbat Tremere), the Baali are almost the sole source of Dark Thaumaturgy as well.

Of additional note is that there used to be a Baali-linked bloodline of Lasombra, Angelis Ater or alternatively Azanaeli, but they are almost entirely gone now and split between those continuing to be aligned with Baali and those working with the Sabbat Inquisition to root out infernalists.

 

[Wesp5]

Some note or other form of clue is needed then.

Yeah, I think I'll stick with the current note on the pier, but will change it to reflect the order of visits to the maps.

Also if you wish you can send me the text, I'll edit it a bit if you don't mind.

I will do that once I have written the new versions, which must include the other note and the computer as well...

This is where it should be noted that if we assume that the doorman of the Crackhouse is a Sabbat vampire, he would most likely also be an infernalist infiltrator.

Sorry, but this is much to complicated for a simple side quest, so I better leave the background in the unclear. But speaking of the Crackhouse, maybe you can explain a thing to me that I always wondered about: Is Bishop Vick a real Sabbat bishop, if maybe a little bit more mad than usual? The title can't be an accident and would make Andrei the Archbishop.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Is Bishop Vick a real Sabbat bishop, if maybe a little bit more mad than usual? The title can't be an accident and would make Andrei the Archbishop.

I think it's just more of a cult thing

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

This is where it should be noted that if we assume that the doorman of the Crackhouse is a Sabbat vampire, he would most likely also be an infernalist infiltrator.

Sorry, but this is much to complicated for a simple side quest, so I better leave the background in the unclear. But speaking of the Crackhouse, maybe you can explain a thing to me that I always wondered about: Is Bishop Vick a real Sabbat bishop, if maybe a little bit more mad than usual? The title can't be an accident and would make Andrei the Archbishop.

Well it actually doesn't need to spelled out, all it needs is to make sense within the background. All you need is just as it was before, a mention in the computer logs of the Crackhouse doorman being a vampire and Beckett's contact thinks they're Sabbat like the Lasombra he saw. Nothing wrong with a bit of unsolved mystery, I didn't mean to suggest radical expansion of the quest like that (my suggestion is really to just change the order of events in Santa Monica, maybe alter the things you encounter in the library, but generally the important bit is to revisit and improve the text). I liked that the Crackhouse doorman bit was just an offhand note in the logs, it ties some stuff together in terms of background material.

And no, Bishop Vick most likely isn't Sabbat. My guess would be that it just wasn't considered since the game's focus isn't on the Sabbat (most evident in that Sabbat lingo is left at shovelhead, since that's the only contact surface of most non-Sabbat). In that same vein, the thing about Sabbat and infernalists should at most be a character's observation about something that doesn't fit in with their previous encounters with Sabbat. Since this is pretty hush-hush stuff, after all.

 

[Ismaul]

ITT
When discussion about Wesp5's patch is more interesting than news of the sequel...

 

[gaussgunner]

And no, Bishop Vick most likely isn't Sabbat. My guess would be that it just wasn't considered since the game's focus isn't on the Sabbat (most evident in that Sabbat lingo is left at shovelhead, since that's the only contact surface of most non-Sabbat). In that same vein, the thing about Sabbat and infernalists should at most be a character's observation about something that doesn't fit in with their previous encounters with Sabbat. Since this is pretty hush-hush stuff, after all.

The Bishop was just a lower-ranking vampire running a cult to provide an ample source of blood. Might have been inspired by Charles Manson's cult. IIRC Bishop's cult was responsible for the bloodborne disease spreading among mortals and drawing the attention of the CDC. A setpiece to show how recklessness threatens to expose the masquerade. Yet the Sabbat's extreme recklessness goes unnoticed by mortals. It doesn't quite add up. It's just flavor.

 

[Cael]

And no, Bishop Vick most likely isn't Sabbat. My guess would be that it just wasn't considered since the game's focus isn't on the Sabbat (most evident in that Sabbat lingo is left at shovelhead, since that's the only contact surface of most non-Sabbat). In that same vein, the thing about Sabbat and infernalists should at most be a character's observation about something that doesn't fit in with their previous encounters with Sabbat. Since this is pretty hush-hush stuff, after all.

The Bishop was just a lower-ranking vampire running a cult to provide an ample source of blood. Might have been inspired by Charles Manson's cult. IIRC Bishop's cult was responsible for the bloodborne disease spreading among mortals and drawing the attention of the CDC. A setpiece to show how recklessness threatens to expose the masquerade. Yet the Sabbat's extreme recklessness goes unnoticed by mortals. It doesn't quite add up. It's just flavor.

Would you think "vampire cover up" when you see a vape store employee having a meltdown at someone wearing a red hat?

 

[gaussgunner]

Would you think "vampire cover up" when you see a vape store employee having a meltdown at someone wearing a red hat?

Hmmm..... if you're right we're all fucked. We just assumed TDS was a mental disorder.

Speaking of Sabbat creations, did you see the tranny with no legs?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

And no, Bishop Vick most likely isn't Sabbat. My guess would be that it just wasn't considered since the game's focus isn't on the Sabbat (most evident in that Sabbat lingo is left at shovelhead, since that's the only contact surface of most non-Sabbat). In that same vein, the thing about Sabbat and infernalists should at most be a character's observation about something that doesn't fit in with their previous encounters with Sabbat. Since this is pretty hush-hush stuff, after all.

The Bishop was just a lower-ranking vampire running a cult to provide an ample source of blood. Might have been inspired by Charles Manson's cult. IIRC Bishop's cult was responsible for the bloodborne disease spreading among mortals and drawing the attention of the CDC. A setpiece to show how recklessness threatens to expose the masquerade. Yet the Sabbat's extreme recklessness goes unnoticed by mortals. It doesn't quite add up. It's just flavor.

Bishop Vick was running a doomsday cult, not a hustle for getting blood. His goal was to cause the apocalypse through a plague and in his mind this would drag the entire world to Hell. He clearly wasn't part of the Sabbat, and he clearly wasn't acting out of recklessness but insanity.

I made a long bit regarding this again, but the Sabbat has a zero tolerance policy when it comes to infernalists (even if Vick's a crazy vampire satanist instead of a true infernalist). If he was part of their hierarchy (and the order and hierarchy of the Army of Caine is far more ironclad than the Camarilla's, much less the Anarchs), the higher-ups would have him killed in a heartbeat without any ifs or buts. The Sabbat's ironically more careful about this sort of stuff than Camarilla or Anarchs, because the fact the sect in almost its entirety rejects Humanity leads to them being particularly vulnerable to infernalist infiltration.

 

[Vibalist]

Yeah, there was never any doubt that Vick was acting on his own. The game made it completely obvious who he was and what he wanted. "Did he work with the Sabbat?" was never even a question that entered my head at any point.