World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Big Wrangle]

The funniest thing in a Nosferatu run is that how in practise all you need is to keep your distance from the typical NPC and nobody makes a fuss. Then again I guess it's unintentionally logical since the last thing you'll worry about in LA is some person dressing in BDSM.

 

[whydoibother]

The funniest thing in a Nosferatu run is that how in practise all you need is to keep your distance from the typical NPC and nobody makes a fuss. Then again I guess it's unintentionally logical since the last thing you'll worry about in LA is some person dressing in BDSM.

The fact that I don't mechanically need to sneak, but I still choose to sneak, shows how good VtMB is about immersion and getting into the world. I do what makes narrative sense, even if it doesn't make mechanical sense. Mark of a good RPG.
On that note, fuck people who make armies entirely composed of Swadian Knights in Mount&Blade: Warband. Yes, its the minmaxed thing to do, but it just feels fucking bad to play. Mimaxers are the cancer enabling bad RPGs to be released by sending the wrong signals upstairs.

 

[Roguey]

a schnoz piercing is less offensive than the tramp stamp on the fem-malk in the first one tbh fam

the only possible design choice worse than the stamp would've been to put a pair of JNCOs on the player

I disagree, because your character is already a slut (has sex with some random vampire in a run-down hotel at the beginning of the game). Sluts gonna slut.

 

[PulsatingBrain]

Mimaxers are the cancer enabling bad RPGs to be released by sending the wrong signals upstairs.

People min-maxing too much is not what's influencing poor RPG design. It's the attempt to dominate the mass market

 

[ArchAngel]

Did people actually use it in Bloodlines? I only used it in my Nosferatu run so I didn't need to spend Blood on Obfuscate all the time.

I used it occasionally. And of course Nosferatu as a clan has a very stealth feel, even if you don't actually in game mechanics sneak that much. Not that it matters, this game is meant to add to the first, not just deliver the absolute same game with a new script for the plot. They should expand stealth. Specifically seeing how games like Skyrim, nu-Deus Ex and "immersive sims" frequently have stealth and people love it in them, despite being basic. Know your audience.

My Nosferatu run was mostly about avoiding battle if and when possible. Where I could sneak my way to objective and out, I did. It was fun.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Thing is tho, stealth in Bloodlines was very crude and basically something you could do anyway if you cared but never actually needed to care unless you wanted max XP. Like, most of the time you were right in front of people (or in case of the launch version from what I recall, it just failed randomly when you were far away). Similarly, the lighting never really worked as a real cue of how much it would affect things, and even then it was based more on proximity than any actual stealth gameplay. And of course, Obfuscate basically rendered the entire feat useless at rank 2 if you had access to it (and you never really would spend more than 3 XP on it anyway, just one raise, skill book, and eventually just side effects from raising Dex for lockpicking, Obfuscate 2+ was just that you could just stealth kill everything on top). Similarly, none of the levels were really constructed with stealth in mind, with only the slight exception of the warehouse and even there the stealth route is basically skipping vast stretch of the level. Even a basic statless stealth system is likely to be an improvement.

Personally I'd imagine it might be that stealth doesn't have a stat, since stat based stealth is generally rather at odds are the fundamental of stealth needing to be based around level design. At least, I'd hope that's what they mean.

The funniest thing in a Nosferatu run is that how in practise all you need is to keep your distance from the typical NPC and nobody makes a fuss. Then again I guess it's unintentionally logical since the last thing you'll worry about in LA is some person dressing in BDSM.

Yea the Nos get-up in Bloodlines is almost hilarious in how ridiculous it is. You'd expect some sort of hobo trench and otherwise giving more visual cover, not trying to draw even more attention than the Malk get-ups (whole different topic of silly stuff there). I also wasn't too much of a fan of the Nos Clan bonus, it made ratsucking too convenient. If they're going to have Nossies in Bloodlines 2, one thing I would feel could greatly improve things having a map layout and non-combat feeding design that relies more on level verticality and alternate routes than the sewers.

 

[gaussgunner]

a schnoz piercing is less offensive than the tramp stamp on the fem-malk in the first one tbh fam

the only possible design choice worse than the stamp would've been to put a pair of JNCOs on the player

I disagree, because your character is already a slut (has sex with some random vampire in a run-down hotel at the beginning of the game). Sluts gonna slut.

I never asked for that. It was RAAAAAAAAAAPE!

 

[HansDampf]

Similarly, none of the levels were really constructed with stealth in mind, with only the slight exception of the warehouse and even there the stealth route is basically skipping vast stretch of the level.

And the Elizabeth Dane.
And the museum.
And the Downtown parking garage.
And Mitnick's sidequests.

 

[Cael]

a schnoz piercing is less offensive than the tramp stamp on the fem-malk in the first one tbh fam

the only possible design choice worse than the stamp would've been to put a pair of JNCOs on the player

I disagree, because your character is already a slut (has sex with some random vampire in a run-down hotel at the beginning of the game). Sluts gonna slut.

I never asked for that. It was RAAAAAAAAAAPE!

According to the "tolerant" left, it is not rape unless it is done by a conservative, and if you are with a conservative, you deserved it.

 

[Wesp5]

Similarly, none of the levels were really constructed with stealth in mind, with only the slight exception of the warehouse and even there the stealth route is basically skipping vast stretch of the level.

And the Elizabeth Dane.
And the museum.
And the Downtown parking garage.
And Mitnick's sidequests.

And the beachhouse and some more maps I would guess. Although in the original Bloodlines the stealth stat was pretty much broken: you were completely invisible already at level 6! I moved that up to 10 with the plus patch, but still the stealth gameplay was hit and miss with another bug there that I couldn't even fix at all, but most people never noticed .

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

That's really the problem, since it's all about the stat. The levels aren't built to function for stealth except through the stat simply rendering you invisible until certain proximity.

(Also a little shout-out to Wesp5 I noticed last playthrough that you'd added an exterior stage to the museum, the labyrinth under Grout's mansion, and the end of the pier for the Library quest, it was really neat stuff. Is that labyrinth actually meant to do something or is it just a neat place with a few bottles of morphine liquid pocket change and the newspaper?)

Similarly, none of the levels were really constructed with stealth in mind, with only the slight exception of the warehouse and even there the stealth route is basically skipping vast stretch of the level.

And the Elizabeth Dane.
And the museum.
And the Downtown parking garage.
And Mitnick's sidequests.

None of these actually reflect what is genuine stealth design. The Dane comes the closest, but the rest are effectively wide corridors where the only factor at play is proximity because actual line of sight only matters based on that proximity multiplied by the vague lighting. This is the key thing really, being stat-based the stealth in Bloodlines is about NOTHING except proximity. You can hack in the same room almost next to a guard to turn off the cameras because there is no design to the stealth beyond the ability to toss random debris to cause someone to go take a look. The Warehouse is the only place where there is a major alternate route that is almost necessary (unless you really like throwing crates and cans, or use Obfuscate) to take a detour through the rafters. In all other cases, what you have is a varying width of corridor with possible side rooms, and all you are asked to do is avoid proximity from point A to point B. This is where the problem comes in, because your route only matters within the 2-5 meters you can crouch right in front of someone's face, and why Warehouse is the only level where stealth was (possibly accidentally) designed for because the critical area of that level is swarming with enough goons that you can't depend on just that leeway in proximity so you need to figure out an alternate route. That is, unless you really like throwing boxes. Dane comes the closest to this, albeit that entire bit is optional since you can just use the deck cameras instead of going through the cops unnoticed. The other levels have barely any enemies in them in terms of the proximity question, in fact the hardest thing in sneaking through the giant parking garage is that Bloodlines is very uncooperative about when your character deigns to climb up vents.

Kamikaze Zen is almost like a microcosm that encompasses entirety of the stealth design's extent in Bloodlines, because it's literally a wide corridor with safe spots, and a single guard per stretch.

 

[Delterius]

guize stealth is that thing you do in bloodlines just in case there's extra exps for going stealthy but then the game ends and you realize it was just the warehouse and the dane since the museum technically awards you exp for not killing anyone which can totes be done with domination and crowd control instead so now you're sad and preorder another copy of BL2 to feel better

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

guize stealth is that thing you do in bloodlines just in case there's extra exps for going stealthy but then the game ends and you realize it was just the warehouse and the dane since the museum technically awards you exp for not killing anyone which can totes be done with domination and crowd control instead so now you're sad and preorder another copy of BL2 to feel better

If the suggestion is that I'm telling to pre-order BL2 (I am not, since I haven't either; I only shill for Yakuza), my point is more in regards that this is one of the areas of Bloodlines that could be improved on. And touching on my general views on stat-based stealth.

Also it's kind of particular relevance to Bloodlines actual design because discipline selection aside your character IS going to be good at everything. The design is centered around doing what you find most interesting (most importantly and to a massive success by the ways in which is structures quests and delivers top-notch dialogue), and this is where we come into a bit of a problem with stealth because if it isn't the only option (the real example of this would be Mitnick's, but let's just go ahead and go with the premise that missing XP is doin it rong too) because stealth is not designed in a manner that feels interesting or rewarding (this is something where Bloodlines managed to uplift its very basic functional combat gameplay, because the disciplines it tosses into the mix add a power trip factor that gives a great deal of satisfaction; Celerity is particularly good at this), it simply takes much longer than just whacking everybody if those are the two options.

So, goal of Bloodlines 2 should be to improve on stealth gameplay to not only make it more varied and skill-based rather than stat-based, but also design levels and navigation to support it to a greater degree. It would also improve combat while at it. And that would be improving upon the design of player-decided approach and world reaction that the original is one of the best examples of.

 

[Delterius]

guize stealth is that thing you do in bloodlines just in case there's extra exps for going stealthy but then the game ends and you realize it was just the warehouse and the dane since the museum technically awards you exp for not killing anyone which can totes be done with domination and crowd control instead so now you're sad and preorder another copy of BL2 to feel better

If the suggestion is that I'm telling to pre-order BL2

no

Spoiler

I am

Spoiler

nothing in that post is ironic either

 

[Sailor Woedica]

Can you pre-order this yet on ps4? The tremere makes me think that the lewks will potentially be maybe more snatched than I thought (though in my wildest dreams the game will have Aymmy in the batty girls level vintage fashion for the clan not dorky corset dresses...the septum piercing is pretty cute tho!)

 

[Roguey]

guize stealth is that thing you do in bloodlines just in case there's extra exps for going stealthy but then the game ends and you realize it was just the warehouse and the dane since the museum technically awards you exp for not killing anyone which can totes be done with domination and crowd control instead so now you're sad and preorder another copy of BL2 to feel better

The parking garage also gives you extra points for not killing anyone till the end. Additionally, putting the camera into that model's apartment and I think the theater require not killing anyone for mission success.

 

[Master]

Which rpg rewards most for no killing?

 

[Wesp5]

(Also a little shout-out to Wesp5 I noticed last playthrough that you'd added an exterior stage to the museum, the labyrinth under Grout's mansion, and the end of the pier for the Library quest, it was really neat stuff. Is that labyrinth actually meant to do something or is it just a neat place with a few bottles of morphine liquid pocket change and the newspaper?)

All of these new maps are just meant to be restorations of cut content that we learned about from screenshots, interviews or assets found in the game files. So they don't serve any real purposes, except maybe the Malkavian Maze shows the madness of Grout some more and provides a way to avoid the fighting in the mansion basement.

This is the key thing really, being stat-based the stealth in Bloodlines is about NOTHING except proximity.

This is not exactly true. Troika marked areas with lower visibility by hand-placed trigger areas that raised your stealth stats temporarily. Sadly they even managed to mess this up, as your internal stealth stat will stay increased after leaving these area, in case you accidentally saved the game there, making stealth easier and easier if you did.

 

[Master]

Does it stay raised forever, even if you reload or exit game?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

All of these new maps are just meant to be restorations of cut content that we learned about from screenshots, interviews or assets found in the game files. So they don't serve any real purposes, except maybe the Malkavian Maze shows the madness of Grout some more and provides a way to avoid the fighting in the mansion basement.

This is the key thing really, being stat-based the stealth in Bloodlines is about NOTHING except proximity.

This is not exactly true. Troika marked areas with lower visibility by hand-placed trigger areas that raised your stealth stats temporarily. Sadly they even managed to mess this up, as your internal stealth stat will stay increased after leaving these area, in case you accidentally saved the game there, making stealth easier and easier if you did.

Well, that at least explains why the connection between lighting and the modification to proximity allowed seems so odd and arbitrary.

(Also I went through the maze AND did fighting in the mansion basement because I just can't stand leavings things unfinished)


Also I would say you are being a little too modest with the museum exterior and the Santa Monica cafe and pier. They both add to the pacing and presentation of the respective questlines. It's especially notable in the museum because it used to have no approach phase, you simply took a taxi and arrived at the upper floors maintenance staff exit. Now it proceeds like King's Way, Grout's Mansion, and Elizabeth Dane where the arrival is also covered. I'd say that serves an important purpose for atmosphere and aesthetics.

It leaves only Hallowbrook Hotel as kind of a question mark in terms of location and approach, but that's mostly just because the place is well within range for LaCroix to throw small rocks at the local Sabbat from his window.

 

[Vibalist]

The Library quest is not very good, though. The writing especially leaves something to be desired. Who wrote it?

 

[Jenkem]

thralls are cuckolds

 

[HansDampf]

Which rpg rewards most for no killing?

Deus Ex. The reward is not XP or loot. That is stupid.

Something Human Revolution didn't understand.

 

[Wesp5]

Well, that at least explains why the connection between lighting and the modification to proximity allowed seems so odd and arbitrary.

I guess the Source engine that Troika had to work with had nothing regarding to stealth, so they had to improvise.
Master: The changed stealth stats stay so this might be the reason why many people find stealth much too easy.

I'd say that serves an important purpose for atmosphere and aesthetics.

I agree to that, especially for the museum entrance. It was originally only planned for the Prelude mod and created by EntenSchreck, but I added another small downtown area he had build after a beta screenshot and devised a way to enter the museum in a much less sudden fashion than in the original game. I'm pretty sure Troika intended to do this at one time too, because the entrance textures were already in the game files and the prince even says that he gives you the front door keys!

It leaves only Hallowbrook Hotel as kind of a question mark in terms of location and approach, but that's mostly just because the place is well within range for LaCroix to throw small rocks at the local Sabbat from his window.

I think here again the restored atrium map explains a little bit better how you get from a window cleaning elevator inside the building. Again we found all of the railing and elevator models unused in the game files, EntenSchreck build the map and I filled it with life.

As for the library quest story, we really had to improvise there! I emailed Brian Mitsoda about it early on after we discovered a lot of unused library models and textures, but he only remembered that it was connected to a main character and an optional Sabbat miniboss. The main character was Beckett because the library card had his name on it, but we had nothing else! I then found the ritual cave model which is also visible in some beta screenshots and had burgermeister from Clan Quest Mod fame build the library after my plans on top of it. Much latter I added the smoke shop, the coffee shop and the pier ending to make the player move around a bit more! I'm open to any suggestions in which this can be improved by using only the levels that are already involved !

 

[Master]

I read an article saying this new game takes place in 19th century Seattle? It doesnt look like it from screens and videos.