World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[ArchAngel]

All games are power fantasies in some way or another, as they should be. You want balance or to feel powerless or simulate a survival situation? Then you have real life for that.

Except roguelikes, simulations/simulators and survival games.

Lol. You mean those game where you chop down a tree for 10s using a stone axe and then get as nice bundle of stacked wood?! And you never hit yourself by accident, get Sepsis and die?

I was thinking more along the lines of NEO Scavenger, where you can die of...:

• Acute bleeding to the lung
• Cardiac arrest
• Severe traumatic brain injury
• Blood loss
  
• Cholera
• Poisoning
  
• Dehydration
• Hypotermia
• Starvation

...you know, a proper SURVIVAL game? Not some happy crafting game masquerading as a survival game.

Still does not compare with real life like the person you quoted said. You jump into this shark infested sea yourself.

 

[Wesp5]

All games are power fantasies in some way or another, as they should be. You want balance or to feel powerless or simulate a survival situation? Then you have real life for that.

Main issue with the PC was that his rise in power level couldn't be explained in a straightforward manner in terms of the tabletop setting.

Oh, Troika even thought of that. Several NPC remark on your power and Caine himself is driving you around for fun so everything is possible !

 

[Harthwain]

Still does not compare with real life like the person you quoted said. You jump into this shark infested sea yourself.

What kind of an argument is that supposed to be? Nothing compares to life. Games will be games - you can should only take the interesting bits and leave out the tedious bits. And hope the whole ends up being fun. That's it. So don't try to sell me "real life". It's not as fun as you might think.

 

[jungl]

reason why wrpgs are power fantasy cause the story and gameplay suck you are mostly killer hoboing everyone.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

All games are power fantasies in some way or another, as they should be. You want balance or to feel powerless or simulate a survival situation? Then you have real life for that.

Main issue with the PC was that his rise in power level couldn't be explained in a straightforward manner in terms of the tabletop setting.

Oh, Troika even thought of that. Several NPC remark on your power and Caine himself is driving you around for fun so everything is possible !

I know, I know. Still somewhat of a cop-out though, especially given that White Wolf refuses to acknowledge VtMB's taxi driver as Caine.

 

[Cael]

reason why wrpgs are power fantasy cause the story and gameplay suck you are mostly killer hoboing everyone.

That is because westerners seem to have this fetish for murderhoboing and being asshats in general. Take away the option to be Evil in your RPG and watch the whines start.

 

[Delterius]

All games are power fantasies in some way or another, as they should be. You want balance or to feel powerless or simulate a survival situation? Then you have real life for that.

Main issue with the PC was that his rise in power level couldn't be explained in a straightforward manner in terms of the tabletop setting.

Oh, Troika even thought of that. Several NPC remark on your power and Caine himself is driving you around for fun so everything is possible !

I know, I know. Still somewhat of a cop-out though, especially given that White Wolf refuses to acknowledge VtMB's taxi driver as Caine.

White Wolf is cancelled when it comes to darkest lore of BL1.

 

[Delterius]

The MC was a mega-super-giga-snowflake in Bloodlines 1 too, but they were subtle about it.

They were compltely unsubtle about it. NPCs call you out on it, even. What's unique is that the game acknowledges it and leaves it up to interpretation.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

The MC was a mega-super-giga-snowflake in Bloodlines 1 too, but they were subtle about it.

They were compltely unsubtle about it. NPCs call you out on it, even. What's unique is that the game acknowledges it and leaves it up to interpretation.

Don't really mind it either way. Even if the lore might be twisted here and there, the game itself doesn't portray the PC as a Gary Stu. You're still an errand boy going around and doing the bidding of your betters and your actions end up shaping the local vampire hierarchy, no world shattering stuff.

 

[Lacrymas]

The MC was a mega-super-giga-snowflake in Bloodlines 1 too, but they were subtle about it.

They were compltely unsubtle about it. NPCs call you out on it, even. What's unique is that the game acknowledges it and leaves it up to interpretation.

NPCs became aware of that quite late, too late for anyone to do anything about it. IIRC, the first time someone *can* mention anything is when you bring the sarcophagus to LaCroix's office and have 5 points into a discipline. Beckett says that it's extraordinary to have mastered a discipline so fast. That's almost end-game at that point.

 

[Wesp5]

NPCs became aware of that quite late, too late for anyone to do anything about it.

Also only after Santa Monica the player is more often close to the mysterious Cabbie...

 

[Lacrymas]

There is a perfectly good explanation that doesn't feature Cain/the cabbie at all - the PC was an old ghoul with wiped memories before they were turned into a vampire. Dracula is a precedent.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Being an old ghoul wouldn't change the fact that he'd inherit the generation of the one that embraced him.

 

[Lacrymas]

We don't know our generation, the blood points aren't influenced only by it. Old ghouls have more blood points too.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

We don't know our generation, the blood points aren't influenced only by it. Old ghouls have more blood points too.

Eh, it's still a stretch. Is it theoretically possible? Sure, but there are no hints within the game to point towards that. All of it points towards Caine's direct involvement if anything.

 

[Lacrymas]

Nothing points to Caine's involvement outside of the game's file names. Yes, it was intended for Caine to be it, but involving him would be bad writing, especially when there's another more plausible explanation.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

More plausible maybe, but it is not hinted at all. At least it could be Caine given the taxi driver's mysteriousness, even if WW denied it.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not hinted because it was intended for Caine to be the instigator. However, perhaps Troika weren't aware that an old-ghoul-turned-vampire can do the things the PC can. It explains both the faster acquisition of disciplines and the blood points while having a high generation. Dracula is one such case.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Which is all fair, but my point is that the idea of the taxi driver being Caine and him being responsible for your power surge is more thematically appropriate taking the game by itself. It's all a matter of personal headcanon though, so eh.

 

[Harthwain]

It's not hinted because it was intended for Caine to be the instigator. However, perhaps Troika weren't aware that an old-ghoul-turned-vampire can do the things the PC can. It explains both the faster acquisition of disciplines and the blood points while having a high generation. Dracula is one such case.

Are you trying to lore-wise explain a game mechanic (how the player can become so strong in so short a time)? I don't think that it's needed or even a good idea.

 

[Lacrymas]

How this is possible has been a talking point since Bloodlines came out and the game itself lampshades it.

 

[Wesp5]

Nothing points to Caine's involvement outside of the game's file names.

This is not correct. Both the seer on the beach and the Malkavian player himself have insights that the Cabbie is Caine...

 

[Lacrymas]

You are trusting the Malkavians a bit too much. Even though sometimes their whispers are true, they aren't always true.

 

[Roguey]

Goal-post moving, but cabbie showing up all dark at the end with Smiling Jack shows this was all their plot.

It's not Caine though, as much as Troika wanted it to be, because that would be OOC.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

That's why I prefer to treat the game as its own thing and have it be Caine, even if just as a personal headcanon.