World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Spacer's Nugget]

It's obvious the budget was going elsewhere.

Brian's fingerless glove collection and Martin's beverage consumption.

 

[Melcar]

It was the fingerless glove man!

 

[PlacidDragon]

FWIW Troika wasn't a "triple A" company either (despite the name :-P), if anything they could barely hold their two As together. Which was for the best IMO

In their field (RPG's), i'd absolutely call Troika a triple A company

 

[Heroic Liberator]

FWIW Troika wasn't a "triple A" company either (despite the name :-P), if anything they could barely hold their two As together. Which was for the best IMO

In their field (RPG's), i'd absolutely call Troika a triple A company

A troika of As.

 

[Spacer's Nugget]

What I'm curious is that any tard that isnt lazy can make the basic systems of a FPS with RPG stats on Unity or Unreal in something like six months, what the fuck those idiots were doing?

Reminder that we were never shown any part of the game's RPG mechanics whatsoever. Not even a character sheet. IIRC there were a couple(?) very short gameplay demos that were janky as hell.

The whole combat concept was basically a poor man's Mirror's Edge, going as far as including the inane 3rd-person finishers from Catalyst (plus Bioware's "awesome-button" for how they handled the Disciplines).

 

[Latelistener]

Guys, Mitsoda wasn't lead of anything except narrative. He wasn't project lead, wasn't lead designer, wasn't producer, wasn't lead programmer, and it wasn't his company. He was exactly where he needed to be: the special guest star of the project.

If things shit the bed, it's highly unlikely it was on him. If it was, they'd have fired him only, not everyone on top and then the whole studio. In fact, they wouldn't have greenlighted the project on the sole basis of his narrative pitch in the first place.

I have no idea where people keep getting this idea that he was anything other than a writer.
I highly doubt that writing -- of all things -- was the reason development was going so slow.

Because those two guys literally pitched the project to Hardsuit and then to Paradox.

If Cluney was the creative director you would be fooling yourself thinking that his pal Mitsoda was just a writer. Maybe on paper.

 

[PlacidDragon]

Considering that Mitsoda and Cluney were friends I assume they were both in charge. And Mitsoda in charge is bad thing.

Mitsoda was only the narrative lead (responsible for the story), he had nothing to do with anything else as far as i know. Cluney was the creative director, which i am a tad more fuzzy on the responsibilities of. I think its a "multiple hats" type of job, helping out various departments as needed.

Edit : ahh, you just replied to someone on this subject. Hardsuit pitched it to Paradox using Mitsoda, yes, seeing how Mitsoda was the lead writer on the original game. Mitsoda was the catch that made Paradox bite (most likely), and he was used heavily towards the audience for the same reason.

Then he got fired (if i recall, he said that they were always on top of things in the writing department, and everything seemed just fine... and then *boom* out of nowhere). How accurate that is i couldn't say anything about however

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Guys, Mitsoda wasn't lead of anything except narrative. He wasn't project lead, wasn't lead designer, wasn't producer, wasn't lead programmer, and it wasn't his company. He was exactly where he needed to be: the special guest star of the project.

If things shit the bed, it's highly unlikely it was on him. If it was, they'd have fired him only, not everyone on top and then the whole studio. In fact, they wouldn't have greenlighted the project on the sole basis of his narrative pitch in the first place.

I have no idea where people keep getting this idea that he was anything other than a writer.
I highly doubt that writing -- of all things -- was the reason development was going so slow.

Because those two guys literally pitched the project to Hardsuit and then to Paradox.

If Cluney was the creative director you would be fooling yourself thinking that his pal Mitsoda was just a writer. Maybe on paper.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/brian-mitsoda-has-been-fired-as-narrative-lead-on-bloodlines-2

In his statement to RPS, which is quoted in full below, Mitsoda says that he is "incredibly disappointed and frustrated to say that this is where it ends for me on the project." He says that he's been involved with the project since its very beginning, in charge of narrative, and he had "never been led to believe that I hadn’t succeeded" in fulfilling the projects goals. He also describes the game's marketing as something which was "intensely difficult and took a mental and physical toll."

I was not part of the conversations that led to the decision to delay production, and to my knowledge, there were no delays caused by the Bloodlines 2 narrative development. I am confident and proud of the work that I and my team put forward. When that work will be seen and what form it will take is unknown to me.

If you have some proof of him doing something otherwise, then show it.

 

[KateMicucci]

There’s obviously a concerted effort to make females as unattractive as possible these days, but I think another culprit is a lack of talent. I always chalked up the awful character models in The Outer Worlds and Mass Effect Andromeda to a lack of talent more than anything, though I acknowledge that Obsidian purposely made every woman in Outer Worlds look like an ANTIFA member from Portland, Oregon. Games will continue to decline, both aesthetically and mechanically, as more hack millennials enter the workforce IMO.

It's baffling that a game creator can put so much effort into trying to make us like a character, but then not bother to make them look good.

I want to play games that feature muscular, square-jawed chads and beautiful maidens with hair and boob physics. I think most people do.

 

[Melcar]

He was just the name. Kind of like with Avellone. These celebrity devs from olden times are just there for star power and for initial morale boost among the staff. They may get a bone or two thrown in there direction, but the people in power won't hesitate in discarding them.

 

[Latelistener]

Guys, Mitsoda wasn't lead of anything except narrative. He wasn't project lead, wasn't lead designer, wasn't producer, wasn't lead programmer, and it wasn't his company. He was exactly where he needed to be: the special guest star of the project.

If things shit the bed, it's highly unlikely it was on him. If it was, they'd have fired him only, not everyone on top and then the whole studio. In fact, they wouldn't have greenlighted the project on the sole basis of his narrative pitch in the first place.

I have no idea where people keep getting this idea that he was anything other than a writer.
I highly doubt that writing -- of all things -- was the reason development was going so slow.

Because those two guys literally pitched the project to Hardsuit and then to Paradox.

If Cluney was the creative director you would be fooling yourself thinking that his pal Mitsoda was just a writer. Maybe on paper.

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/brian-mitsoda-has-been-fired-as-narrative-lead-on-bloodlines-2

In his statement to RPS, which is quoted in full below, Mitsoda says that he is "incredibly disappointed and frustrated to say that this is where it ends for me on the project." He says that he's been involved with the project since its very beginning, in charge of narrative, and he had "never been led to believe that I hadn’t succeeded" in fulfilling the projects goals. He also describes the game's marketing as something which was "intensely difficult and took a mental and physical toll."

I was not part of the conversations that led to the decision to delay production, and to my knowledge, there were no delays caused by the Bloodlines 2 narrative development. I am confident and proud of the work that I and my team put forward. When that work will be seen and what form it will take is unknown to me.

If you have some proof of him doing something otherwise, then show it.

We'll only have proof when someone who worked at Hardsuit will spill the beans.

Mitsoda covering his own ass is not exactly a proof. Of course he'll say everything was good and he doesn't understand why he was fired.

If Paradox was confident about him and satisfied with his work, they would offer him to join another studio and help with the transition the project. Instead, they just cut all the ties with him, despite the fact that he was a key selling point for Bloodlines 2.

 

[Mexi]

The dude was in charge of the narrative. Companies now have a hat on a hat in terms of jobs, but I would think that means he was in charge of saying fuck off to the SJWs trying to put stupid shit into the narrative. It sounds like he failed in managing the stupid fucks trying to make everything woke and extending the development time. Mitsoda's company sucks ass. I'm glad they got the rug pulled out. I just hope the next company does a better job. Also, how the fuck does the Andromeda writer or lead, whatever the fuck that lady is, get jobs!? It's outrageous that that big of a fuck up is encouraged to join a team. For that alone, I would've fired Mitsoda's company.

 

[Wesp5]

Really strange, there are only three things that could have lead Paradox to pull the plug: a) They were trying to make a new engine from scratch and failed hard, having to start over because what they had was too disfunctional and Paradox lost confidence, b) Scope creep, what would be strange because pretty much all developers pass through scope creep, usually this is solved by cutting down the game and pulling the plug this way seems a too radical decision, c) Paradox lost confidence on the management of the company, they were unwilling, incapable to manage the game or maybe even syphoning resources from Paradox as they were strangely hiring people for another project.

I think a) is out of the question as the game was using the Unreal 4 engine. Many Glassdoor reviews point to c), but I can imagine b) too. Remember that there were supposed to be three Thinblood traversal disciplines from which you could choose one: Telekinesis, Fog and Bats. Now additional to that in Bloodlines you usually could traverse many maps using dialogues, sneaking, fighting, hacking or lockpicking alternatives. How should it be possible to add all these options to all maps to make any possible character build work? I think a first hint to that this was a problem came when they suddenly announced that all players would be able to use all new three traversal disciplines. Which would make the Thinblood player completely overpowered, but on the other hand it would make creating working maps a lot easier...

 

[PlacidDragon]

I think a) is out of the question as the game was using the Unreal 4 engine. Many Glassdoor reviews point to c), but I can imagine b) too. Remember that there were supposed to be three Thinblood traversal disciplines from which you could choose one: Telekinesis, Fog and Bats. Now additional to that in Bloodlines you usually could traverse many maps using dialogues, sneaking, fighting, hacking or lockpicking alternatives. How should it be possible to add all these options to all maps to make any possible character build work? I think a first hint to that this was a problem came when they suddenly announced that all players would be able to use all new three traversal disciplines. Which would make the Thinblood player completely overpowered, but on the other hand it would make creating working maps a lot easier...

To add a bit to that.

a) Hardsuit (Zombie Studios) has exclusively (as far as i've been able to determine) used UE since 2001, there was never any doubt what the game was going to use
b) This is the biggest (by an order of magnitude) game Hardsuit has ever attempted, and my guess is that they simply lost the thread at some point... it grew too large and unmanageable for them.
c) After a while, Paradox certainly took steps to get greater control of things, yes (bigger stake in the company, etc). I am guessing this was to "straighten the ship" though, not to undermine it in any way. With Paradox owning the WoD IP, this was to be a flagship title in a new franchise of games. My guess is that Paradox still sees Bloodlines 2 that way.

 

[Enkidu]

To add a bit to that.

a) Hardsuit (Zombie Studios) has exclusively (as far as i've been able to determine) used UE since 2001, there was never any doubt what the game was going to use
b) This is the biggest (by an order of magnitude) game Hardsuit has ever attempted, and my guess is that they simply lost the thread at some point... it grew too large and unmanageable for them.
c) After a while, Paradox certainly took steps to get greater control of things, yes (bigger stake in the company, etc). I am guessing this was to "straighten the ship" though, not to undermine it in any way. With Paradox owning the WoD IP, this was to be a flagship title in a new franchise of games. My guess is that Paradox still sees Bloodlines 2 that way.

Yeah they are somehow still optimistic about Bloodlines 2. Shame that the reason they bought the whole license is because they are a bunch of faggot larpers instead of people with a plan.
The whole bringing back Bloodlines and Masquerade is a show of delusion. They are trying to make new games with around 30 years of metaplot and retcons instead of just using Requiem which by design can be whatever you want, you cut and choose what works for your setting.
Even this Bloodlines 2 was just a nostalgia fact check, bringing back characters of the first game instead of creating new ones.

 

[DeepOcean]

I think a) is out of the question as the game was using the Unreal 4 engine. Many Glassdoor reviews point to c), but I can imagine b) too. Remember that there were supposed to be three Thinblood traversal disciplines from which you could choose one: Telekinesis, Fog and Bats. Now additional to that in Bloodlines you usually could traverse many maps using dialogues, sneaking, fighting, hacking or lockpicking alternatives. How should it be possible to add all these options to all maps to make any possible character build work? I think a first hint to that this was a problem came when they suddenly announced that all players would be able to use all new three traversal disciplines. Which would make the Thinblood player completely overpowered, but on the other hand it would make creating working maps a lot easier...

To add a bit to that.

a) Hardsuit (Zombie Studios) has exclusively (as far as i've been able to determine) used UE since 2001, there was never any doubt what the game was going to use
b) This is the biggest (by an order of magnitude) game Hardsuit has ever attempted, and my guess is that they simply lost the thread at some point... it grew too large and unmanageable for them.
c) After a while, Paradox certainly took steps to get greater control of things, yes (bigger stake in the company, etc). I am guessing this was to "straighten the ship" though, not to undermine it in any way. With Paradox owning the WoD IP, this was to be a flagship title in a new franchise of games. My guess is that Paradox still sees Bloodlines 2 that way.

Still, there must had been some serious problems beyond the usual scope creep, something happened that made Paradox lose confidence on them. Is the problem scope creep? Cut the game until it becomes a manageable project, this is what happened with the original Bloodlines and they had fucking Activision as publisher and they arent known to be understanding kind of people.

 

[Caim]

My best hunch at the moment is Splash Damage:

What about Bioware? They were under hardcore reform and revision. Bioware's Bloodlines shall win even most based hearts of Delete-terrius and Jenkis-khan.

"How was I supposed to know that he was with the Inquisition? And it's not like the attack hurt you, you killed all those cops!"
1. "Oh you. Don't do it again, you rascal." (Humanity increase)
2. "The Traditions are clear about this." *kill him*
3. "I will rip off your head, jam a straw into the stump and turn you into a human Caprisun!" *proceed do so* (Humanity decrease)

 

[PlacidDragon]

Still, there must had been some serious problems beyond the usual scope creep, something happened that made Paradox lose confidence on them. Is the problem scope creep? Cut the game until it becomes a manageable project, this is what happened with the original Bloodlines and they had fucking Activision as publisher and they arent known to be understanding kind of people.

When it was presented, the vision document (at least what was presented to us) said that it was to be literally a game with temporary power-ups, special moves and whatnot.. it sounded like a cheap arcade game.. and when they showed the demo, it looked like that too.. the animations were criminally bad, but hey, early in the development process, etc.. so we let it slide..then they showed it off in Germany (if i recall ?), where there was supposed to be fans hands on for the first time, etc.. they reneged on that, and the game still looked terrible... and after that, they stopped showing us anything, which isn't exactly a staple of confidence.

I am guessing that it was around that time (October 2019) that Paradox started seriously questioning things.. by that time, the game had been in development since 2016 (if i recall ?), and they had precious little to show for it. Then 2020 came around, and the firings, etc stared..

Edit : They also hired Alexandre Mandryka, a "hatchetman", to get the game back on track. This was in August of 2020. I am guessing he reported back that it couldn't be saved, which is why they went to this extreme measure of switching developer. ah well..

 

[moon knight]

I'm just surprised more CRPGs haven't been made using WoD material. I mean, vampires and werewolves are at least kinda mainstream IMHO.

Both have been ruined to the point where even their mass appeal is finished. Werewolves are best as a plot device for murder mysteries with a Jekyl/Hyde element. Vampires are about Faustian bargains and everything around that. Both are unmistakably evil and to be reviled. I haven't witnessed any of these elements in media for a very long time. Rather than being creatures of horror that embody savage terror and existential dread, they are now a platform for inept degenerates to self-insert their perversity. Vampires and werewolves both been simultaneously sanitized and fetishized beyond recognition. Nobody cares anymore.

Vampires in TW3 Blood & Wine were well written

 

[DeepOcean]

Dettlaff emo nonsense was annoying as fuck.

 

[Wesp5]

When it was presented, the vision document (at least what was presented to us) said that it was to be literally a game with temporary power-ups, special moves and whatnot.. it sounded like a cheap arcade game.. and when they showed the demo, it looked like that too..

What I have been shown of the intro, the tutorial and the haven looked fine, but that was only environment and dialogue. So it might well be that the fighting just didn't work! I remember all this talk about melee being the focus and ranged only secondary with stupid ideas like the player throwing firearms away. Why basically try to weaken one mayor way that you could play Bloodlines? Especially as first person shooting is much easier than first person melee fighting...

 

[Delterius]

My best hunch at the moment is Splash Damage:

What about Bioware? They were under hardcore reform and revision. Bioware's Bloodlines shall win even most based hearts of Delete-terrius and Jenkis-khan.

"How was I supposed to know that he was with the Inquisition? And it's not like the attack hurt you, you killed all those cops!"
1. "Oh you. Don't do it again, you rascal." (Humanity increase)
2. "The Traditions are clear about this." *kill him*
3. "I will rip off your head, jam a straw into the stump and turn you into a human Caprisun!" *proceed do so* (Humanity decrease)

4. Hello there... (Heart Icon)

 

[PlacidDragon]

What I have been shown of the intro, the tutorial and the haven looked fine, but that was only environment and dialogue. So it might well be that the fighting just didn't work! I remember all this talk about melee being the focus and ranged only secondary with stupid ideas like the player throwing firearms away. Why basically try to weaken one mayor way that you could play Bloodlines? Especially as first person shooting is much easier than first person melee fighting...

yeah, thats what i meant by "temporary power-ups". You'd pick up a weapon off the floor (say it was a knife). After stabbing a few times, the knife took structural damage and disintegrated. If you picked up a revolver, you'd fire its 6 shots and then throw the gun away. The type of weapon was also entirely cosmetic. A gun was a gun, period. A skin might make it look different, but functionally, they'd all be the exact same. I made some really snarky remarks on these things on the official forums at the time, but i was literally shouted down by people proclaiming Hardsuit to be the next Bioware/Blizzard.

And the special fighting moves looked..well.. horrendous is the only word that comes to mind

 

[Gordian Nutt]

Edit : They also hired Alexandre Mandryka, a "hatchetman", to get the game back on track. This was in August of 2020. I am guessing he reported back that it couldn't be saved, which is why they went to this extreme measure of switching developer. ah well..

Alexandre not being an employee but an evaluator that decides whether to cut project or not was a surprise. I thought he was brought on to replace previous leads, not serve as Paradox's 'project judge' but there it is

The news on this project over the past few days has been surprising and not surprising at same time.

 

[Chimera]

if the new dev wants to regain my trust the first thing they need to show us is a model of jaenette. if they downgraded her rack we can safely throw the game in the garbage can. if they stay true to the source material and even give her her old outfit back, i’m willing to give harebrained schemes or cyanide or whoever will take over a chance. what hbs did to damsel still makes me butthurt

Given the contemporary ideology embraced by SJW developers of "destroy all beautiful women as we're jealous not to be among them lest the patriarchy become aroused" and, as you noted, the abomination that was neo-Damsel I wholeheartedly predict...

WHAT WE WANT

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WHAT WE GET

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