World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Fenris 2.0]

Uhm, just a random Thought - Bloodlines was the only Game in wich I kept the Music on all the Times. The Soundtrack was awesome.

 

[DeepOcean]

What I have been shown of the intro, the tutorial and the haven looked fine, but that was only environment and dialogue. So it might well be that the fighting just didn't work! I remember all this talk about melee being the focus and ranged only secondary with stupid ideas like the player throwing firearms away. Why basically try to weaken one mayor way that you could play Bloodlines? Especially as first person shooting is much easier than first person melee fighting...

yeah, thats what i meant by "temporary power-ups". You'd pick up a weapon off the floor (say it was a knife). After stabbing a few times, the knife took structural damage and disintegrated. If you picked up a revolver, you'd fire its 6 shots and then throw the gun away. The type of weapon was also entirely cosmetic. A gun was a gun, period. A skin might make it look different, but functionally, they'd all be the exact same. I made some really snarky remarks on these things on the official forums at the time, but i was literally shouted down by people proclaiming Hardsuit to be the next Bioware/Blizzard.

And the special fighting moves looked..well.. horrendous is the only word that comes to mind

Did you try Condemned? On that game you play as a cop investigating a serial killer but end on a strange place full of agressive as fuck hobos, the game starts as a normal detective story but becomes more and more bizzare as some strange supernatural element is present and the hobos start getting mutated with some looking like zombies. That game atmosphere screamed World of Darkness to me and its combat system was really interesting, on each room you were, if you werent careful, a single hobo could fuck you up, however, most of the time you were outnumbered.

So, every single encounter you were outnumbered, rarely you would use a gun as ammo was extremely limited and guns were more like a strategic resource to easily get rid of some hobos on critical moments. The combat system on that game is great for horror games as you need to get close and personal and always were on disadvantage, the tension was great. I imagine you playing as a vampire, dealing with Sabbat goons on the same fashion and having your powers to strategically use only once and while, it makes sense as you start as a thin blood so you are bottom of the barrel fighting with trash. The concept isnt bad but I agree with you that they would probably fuck up that because they would make the game super easy what would defeat the whole purpose of the system, so you would lose access to much in terms of guns but gain nothing for it.

 

[Flying Dutchman]

I have no idea where people keep getting this idea that he was anything other than a writer.
I highly doubt that writing -- of all things -- was the reason development was going so slow.

This. Mitsoda has his share of problems (he has a track record of being difficult, and this isn't his first firing), but blaming him for the VTMB2 clusterfuck feels like a reach.

Mitsoda does sound pretty clueless, though (it's very unlikely he didn't know why he was fired, that seems bizarre - but hey, anything's possible with Hardsuit and Paradox). Maybe he couldn't see his own inadequacies up in his ivory tower or is too stubborn to admit his failings.

Hope he lands on his feet, though, and I hope Hardsuit and Paradox get nothing but suffering from all the fallout from this (they sure seem to be taking hits, PR-wise, financially, and reputation-wise).

Be very curious if the new Mass Effect: Andromeda writer also starts getting hyped like Mitsoda was... I hope so, because we know where that leads with Hardsuit.

The reward? Getting fired!

 

[Flying Dutchman]

Also, am joining the coming petition to let Wesp5 take charge and finish this trainwreck, that would restore confidence.

 

[PlacidDragon]

Did you tried Condemned? On that game you play as a cop investigating a serial killer but end on a strange place full of agressive as fuck hobos, the game starts as a normal detective story but becomes more and more bizzare as some strange supernatural element is present and the hobos start getting mutated with some looking like zombies. That game atmosphere screamed World of Darkness to me and its combat system was really interesting, on each room you were, if you werent careful, a single hobo could fuck you up, however, most of the time you were outnumbered.

So, every single encounter you were outnumbered, rarely you would use a gun as ammo was extremely limited and guns were more like a strategic resource to easily get rid of some hobos on critical moments. The combat system on that game is great for horror games as you need to get close and personal and always were on disadvantage, the tension was great. I imagine you playing as a vampire, dealing with Sabbat goons on the same fashion and having your powers to strategically use only once and while, it makes sense as you start as a thin blood so you are bottom of the barrel fighting with trash. The concept isnt bad but I agree with you that they would probably fuck up that because they would make the game super easy what would defeat the whole purpose of the system, so you would lose access to much in terms of guns but gain nothing for it.

Not tried Condemned no Its made all the way back in 2005 (a year after Bloodlines), guess they made better games back then :D

 

[Semiurge]

The 18th of April 2019 relatively shortly after them announcing the game, i said this on the official forums :

"Well, if one wants to be the party pooper here, there is nothing to even remotely suggest that Hardsuit Labs is a triple A company. Their tagline of "we make great games".. no they dont. They haven't made a great game yet. Or indeed any game, much less games, plural. They were born out of the defunct Zombie Studios, which made indie games for 20 years before its owners retired and shut down the company. Games that were at best mediocre, and at worst, downright awful.

So the question isn't really their passion or dedication, etc.. but their ability to make a "great game" at all. They've never done it, and their pedigree is at best, very questionable.

I *really* want this to be a worthy successor to Bloodlines. Until i see the game in action, all i can do is hope really".

yeah.. hoping didn't do much... i am guessing that whatever new studio takes over is basically going to make the game over, more or less from scratch.

Best indication of future behaviour is past behaviour. Thus considering who owns it, WoD is doomed.

if the new dev wants to regain my trust the first thing they need to show us is a model of jaenette. if they downgraded her rack we can safely throw the game in the garbage can. if they stay true to the source material and even give her her old outfit back, i’m willing to give harebrained schemes or cyanide or whoever will take over a chance. what hbs did to damsel still makes me butthurt

At best, this is what would be realistic to expect:

While I think that lack of competence is an issue, looking at Ryder's default male model, I can't help but feel they made an effort to make him as unmanly as possible. He's even short.

But he's prettier than the sister. Not that it's a big surprise...

Makes me sick seeing the ugly character models everywhere.

There’s obviously a concerted effort to make females as unattractive as possible these days, but I think another culprit is a lack of talent. I always chalked up the awful character models in The Outer Worlds and Mass Effect Andromeda to a lack of talent more than anything, though I acknowledge that Obsidian purposely made every woman in Outer Worlds look like an ANTIFA member from Portland, Oregon. Games will continue to decline, both aesthetically and mechanically, as more hack millennials enter the workforce IMO.

There still is a market for traditional values, in romance novels, chickflicks and telenovelas. Especially if they are made in more, shall we say, conservative countries like France, Italy or Spain. They will often be full of beautiful people, both males and females. Those mediums aren't consumed by the woke millenials, however. Not much of a consolation, I know.

And the special fighting moves looked..well.. horrendous is the only word that comes to mind

Ah yes, the Brujah "ground stomp shockwave". Yeah, when I play a Brujah I want to smash my fist into the ground instead of through my enemies, like Hulk.

Did you tried Condemned? On that game you play as a cop investigating a serial killer but end on a strange place full of agressive as fuck hobos, the game starts as a normal detective story but becomes more and more bizzare as some strange supernatural element is present and the hobos start getting mutated with some looking like zombies. That game atmosphere screamed World of Darkness to me and its combat system was really interesting, on each room you were, if you werent careful, a single hobo could fuck you up, however, most of the time you were outnumbered.

So, every single encounter you were outnumbered, rarely you would use a gun as ammo was extremely limited and guns were more like a strategic resource to easily get rid of some hobos on critical moments. The combat system on that game is great for horror games as you need to get close and personal and always were on disadvantage, the tension was great. I imagine you playing as a vampire, dealing with Sabbat goons on the same fashion and having your powers to strategically use only once and while, it makes sense as you start as a thin blood so you are bottom of the barrel fighting with trash. The concept isnt bad but I agree with you that they would probably fuck up that because they would make the game super easy what would defeat the whole purpose of the system, so you would lose access to much in terms of guns but gain nothing for it.

The supernatural element is actually

Spoiler

some kind of paranoia agent released by the government(?) as a test. You can unearth more lore by collecting as many dead birds and metal pieces as you can.

 

[Spacer's Nugget]

Still no word from Brian on the recent events.

Also...



It appears that his car is filthy af.

 

[mondblut]

You really think Paradox got rid of them because of too much woke stuff? Is this serious post?

Too much woke stuff and complete utter incompetence go hand in glove. Say what you will, PDX has a sizable track record axing very public projects that fail to meet their expectations qualitywise rather than prod a mangled cripple towards the finish line no matter what.

This heap of trash is effectively cancelled, but since they own the IP anyway, they can start the development of another Bloodlines 2 from scratch at any time, so why generate negative media attention as evil meddlesome publishers who ruined a game by diverse and progressive studio when they can say they are just "transfering it to another developer".

 

[ShadowSpectre]

I've been saying for the past year or longer how the game looked like it was in development hell, as they kept releasing only the same playable area after months. Each update the same. Imagine my lack of surprise when it was cancelled. As is the common sentiment around here, good riddance to you and your quest trigger warnings Bloodlines 2. May the original forever remain a cult classic.

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

I know what needs to happen now... PDX somehow compels Wesp5 & Tessera to join forces and create the One True Golden Shower official unofficial patch for VtmB 2.

On a serious note, nothing of value was lost. But Kudos to PDX for pulling the plug, the alternative would have been painful.

 

[Wesp5]

Not tried Condemned no Its made all the way back in 2005 (a year after Bloodlines), guess they made better games back then :D

I played Condemned at the time and while the first person melee was great, I hated the fact that the weapons disintegrated. This was as stupid as in SS2, but at least it made some sense because you were supposed to be outnumbered! In Bloodlines on the other hand you are a powerfull vampire, even as a fledgling, and you had all the choices, you could play it as a talker, a sneaker, a brawler or a shooter or mix up all of these. Why throw that away and force people into one direction? That was a bad design move right from the start.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Was there ever an inventory planned for Bloodlines 2? If there's no guns, then vendors would be unnecessary. Going even further, since vampires have superhuman toughness, armor would be unnecessary as well. The only thing the player would have would be the disciplines.

 

[thesheeep]

Going even further, since vampires have superhuman toughness, armor would be unnecessary as well.

Armor will always be beneficial as long as your "superhuman toughness" doesn't provide straight invincibility.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Going even further, since vampires have superhuman toughness, armor would be unnecessary as well.

Armor will always be beneficial as long as your "superhuman toughness" doesn't provide straight invincibility.

Its more a point that Hardsuit would use it as an excuse not to implement armor for the player character. You already have fortitude / blood heal / bullets cause bash not lethal.

 

[Ravielsk]

You really think Paradox got rid of them because of too much woke stuff? Is this serious post?

Too much woke stuff and complete utter incompetence go hand in glove. Say what you will, PDX has a sizable track record axing very public projects that fail to meet their expectations qualitywise rather than prod a mangled cripple towards the finish line no matter what.

This heap of trash is effectively cancelled, but since they own the IP anyway, they can start the development of another Bloodlines 2 from scratch at any time, so why generate negative media attention as evil meddlesome publishers who ruined a game by diverse and progressive studio when they can say they are just "transfering it to another developer".

I want to believe that PDX has seen the light and this whole "transference" is a late attempt to save the game but I would not hold my breath.

 

[Storyfag]

I know what needs to happen now... PDX somehow compels Wesp5 & Tessera to join forces

Yeeah, and right after that money will start raining from the sky.

 

[Tuco Benedicto Pacifico]

I want to believe that PDX has seen the light and this whole "transference" is a late attempt to save the game but I would not hold my breath.

Unless they announce explicitly otherwise, I wouldn't even assume the game is going to change significantly. The new developer will most likely just attempt to salvage what's already there.

 

[mondblut]

The new developer will most likely just attempt to salvage what's already there.

There's presumably not much to salvage. The story stuff and maybe some art assets. I doubt anyone would volunteer to go through the code done by these hacks.

Would it be less pozzed than the hardsuit bloodlines? Likely not, as the source material is pozzed as fuck to begin with. Would it be a better game? Probably not, but it can't get any worse either. At very least, it could be that it won't have the who's who (or the butt buddies of who's who) of twatter blue checkmarkdom attached to it. I want these people professionally dead, their names associated with naught but disasters and canceled projects. If we can't take them down over their views, we would take them down over their incompetence.

 

[DeepOcean]

Not tried Condemned no Its made all the way back in 2005 (a year after Bloodlines), guess they made better games back then :D

I played Condemned at the time and while the first person melee was great, I hated the fact that the weapons disintegrated. This was as stupid as in SS2, but at least it made some sense because you were supposed to be outnumbered! In Bloodlines on the other hand you are a powerfull vampire, even as a fledgling, and you had all the choices, you could play it as a talker, a sneaker, a brawler or a shooter or mix up all of these. Why throw that away and force people into one direction? That was a bad design move right from the start.

I think a compromise is possible, you would keep the guns but special ammo that actually was able to do more than tickle vampires and supernatural beasts were a rarity, guns were for humans, that is it. Guns with normal ammo would at best stun and weaken higher generation vampires and weaker supernatural beasts but not damage to kill them, only headshots from higher caliber weapons would be somewhat effective with normal ammo. Also, you were a thin blood, even Sabbat trash were more powerful than you, so you being overwhelmed by ghouls, low tier vampires and other thin bloods wasnt lore breaking.

It would be cool, the Prince sending you on a mission, a building was occupied by hobos and he wanted you to evict them on a way or another, he doesnt want to involve the police. So he sends you, what he didnt tell you is that he didnt want to involve the police because he suspects something fishy is going on that building complex where the hobos are, some charity organization was in there but he suspected that it was hiding something, your goal was to discover what, if you died trying, you were a thin blood, nobody cared about you anyway.

In the end, after initially slaughtering the hobos with ease, you discover there is a Tzimisce in there that was experimenting with thin bloods and he attracted a few in there that seek a "cure", but the Tzimisce wasnt exactly interested on a cure but experimenting on thin bloods because he was interested on their ability of having visions with Antediluvians and wanted to know if that could be learned for the Sabbat. As soon as you tell the prince what is going on, he tells you to get the hell out, however the Tzimisce has other plans. You have to fight sabbat goons, thin bloods and abominations to get out. If you manage to get out, the Tzimisce later sends a mensage to you with an offer claiming he has the knowledge how to reduce your generation, you only need to join the Sabbat and become a spy on the Camarilla as he knew the prince was the one that sent you there.

 

[True Ukrainian]

Not tried Condemned no Its made all the way back in 2005 (a year after Bloodlines), guess they made better games back then :D

I played Condemned at the time and while the first person melee was great, I hated the fact that the weapons disintegrated. This was as stupid as in SS2, but at least it made some sense because you were supposed to be outnumbered! In Bloodlines on the other hand you are a powerfull vampire, even as a fledgling, and you had all the choices, you could play it as a talker, a sneaker, a brawler or a shooter or mix up all of these. Why throw that away and force people into one direction? That was a bad design move right from the start.

I think a compromise is possible, you would keep the guns but special ammo that actually was able to do more than tickle vampires and supernatural beasts were a rarity, guns were for humans, that is it. Guns with normal ammo would at best stun and weaken higher generation vampires and weaker supernatural beasts but not damage to kill them, only headshots from higher caliber weapons would be somewhat effective with normal ammo. Also, you were a thin blood, even Sabbat trash were more powerful than you, so you being overwhelmed by ghouls, low tier vampires and other thin bloods wasnt lore breaking.

It would be cool, the Prince sending you on a mission, a building was occupied by hobos and he wanted you to evict them on a way or another, he doesnt want to involve the police. So he sends you, what he didnt tell you is that he didnt want to involve the police because he suspects something fishy is going on that building complex where the hobos are, some charity organization was in there but he suspected that it was hiding something, your goal was to discover what, if you died trying, you were a thin blood, nobody cared about you anyway.

In the end, after initially slaughtering the hobos with ease, you discover there is a Tzimisce in there that was experimenting with thin bloods and he attracted a few in there that seek a "cure", but the Tzimisce wasnt exactly interested on a cure but experimenting on thin bloods because he was interested on their ability of having visions with Antediluvians and wanted to know if that could be learned for the Sabbat. As soon as you tell the prince what is going on, he tells you to get the hell out, however the Tzimisce has other plans. You have to fight sabbat goons, thin bloods and abominations to get out. If you manage to get out, the Tzimisce later sends a mensage to you with an offer claiming he has the knowledge how to reduce your generation, you only need to join the Sabbat and become a spy on the Camarilla as he knew the prince was the one that sent you there.

The sad part is that this quest is probably more exciting than anything in the game.

 

[Latelistener]

I hated the fact that the weapons disintegrated

I hear that a lot, but breakable weapons are a huge part of emergent gameplay. It forces to improvise in combat and creates unique situations.

And Condemned was great. In fact, Bloodlines 2 could win a lot from being somewhat similar so I support DeepOcean in this.

The problem is, Condemned was made by Monolith. Not many studios are on that level and certainly not Hardsuit.

 

[Wesp5]

I hear that a lot, but breakable weapons are a huge part of emergent gameplay. It forces to improvise in combat and creates unique situations.

If done correctly like in Condemned, maybe. But most of the time it ends up in stupid wrench slapping like in SS2 !

 

[DeepOcean]

Of course when I'm theorizing, I'm assuming a competent studio, not Hard Suit Labs. I never trusted Hard Suit Labs would manage to make a game, let alone a good one.

 

[Spacer's Nugget]

Wesp5 that Bloodlines 1 tutorial segment was always a thing? Came across that for the very first time the last time I played, after all these years.

 

[fantadomat]

Wesp5 that Bloodlines 1 tutorial segment was always a thing? Came across that for the very first time the last time I played, after all these years.

Don't know if it was in the original version,but it was in the older ones without mods. Tho it is optional,but it gives you reward for doing it.