World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Roguey]

Maybe this is merely an artistic expression? You have black wolves(?) and stars in there too. Either that or he just had shitty hair. I am not really buying a theory that his hairstyle is proof of his insanity when we have the actual famous people having similar "my head doubles is a mop" haircuts in real life.

They don't look crazy, he does.

And it is these voices that end up driving him insane, which isn't exactly supporting your point about him being mad before that.

They made him justifiably paranoid. He was right to be afraid because LaCroix was genuinely after him.

 

[Harthwain]

They made him justifiably paranoid. He was right to be afraid because LaCroix was genuinely after him.

It's not just that they made him paranoid (which, as you said, is understandable):

The voices have increased in frequency and direction of late. They have begun to stay with me long after conversation has ceased and are serving as quite a distraction.

[...]

The fear must register on my face as it is all I can do in these moments to keep from crying out... in chorus with the voices!

[...]

The voices compelled me to make what I fear is a Faustian bargain. But I had to, for their demands are constant and merciless.

[...]

The voices echo in the twisted corridors of my psyche... dark whisperings of a macabre and formless menace the approach of which portends an end, an end to all of this!

He is literally hearing the voices constantly and it is too much. Imagine having a bunch of people talking to you (or even screaming!) at the same time, all the time. Without the ability to make it stop. The information being very panic-inducing doesn't help, but it ain't the sole reason for his final state of mind. Notice he was relatively fine before that (even if we assume, for the sake of the argument, that you're right about what were his symptoms of insanity).

 

[Roguey]

The voices compelled me to make what I fear is a Faustian bargain. But I had to, for their demands are constant and merciless.

Too bad we'll never get a sequel from the original creative team that could perhaps explain just what this was and with whom and just why exactly that skeleton was chained to the bed or why there was even a skeleton when the lore states that he should have only been ashes.

 

[Viata]

Do we know if some dev is making this game now?

 

[ColaWerewolf]

You guys focus too much on the tapes. We can surmise that Grout was deranged because of his mansion. Nobody sane or even lucid would live in that mansion if they weren't just ridiculous people. Asylum floor tiles, secret passages, nonsensical puzzle keys, green submarine lighting, inconvenient layout. The man literally built an insane asylum with dozens of lobotomized pets in his own haven instead of doing it in a separate location like any sane Kindred would.

 

[Wesp5]

Too bad we'll never get a sequel from the original creative team that could perhaps explain just what this was and with whom and just why exactly that skeleton was chained to the bed or why there was even a skeleton when the lore states that he should have only been ashes.

I can only report that internally, like inside the map data, the skeleton on the bed is referred to as Grout.

 

[Harthwain]

Too bad we'll never get a sequel from the original creative team that could perhaps explain just what this was and with whom and just why exactly that skeleton was chained to the bed or why there was even a skeleton when the lore states that he should have only been ashes.

Eh, knowing life I am willing to bet we would end up being disappointed. By leaving things as they are the mystery remains and I'd argue it's more powerful than the truth.

You guys focus too much on the tapes. We can surmise that Grout was deranged because of his mansion.

The crux of the debate was not "if" but "when" and "how". You do raise a good point though - his mansion does indicate his insanity must've started much earlier than I originally thought, because he said he constructed it earlier than he started hearing the voices/became afraid about the safety. It's just not apparent from the tapes alone.

 

[JBro]

I was under the impression that it was more about TT players using Malkavians as an excuse to act like shitheads that annoy the fuck out of everyone else.

Me

 

[HansDampf]

for the record i thought it was his wife's portrait back when i first saw it

When you extract the texture from the game files it's called malkwifepic_texture.tga.

 

[Delterius]

for the record i thought it was his wife's portrait back when i first saw it

When you extract the texture from the game files it's called malkwifepic_texture.tga.

plot twist

 

[Storyfag]

or why there was even a skeleton when the lore states that he should have only been ashes.

The lore states the corpse rapidly deteriorates to a state it would have been if the Cainite died at the moment of his Embrace. It is completely likely the likes of Vykos or even Tremere would leave a 1000 year old skeleton behind, let alone someone turned as recently as Grout.

 

[Roguey]

plot twist

I went digging through a picture LP and this is what Grout looked like before he turned:

And his wife:

Edit: Ah, I see. Everyone assumes that weird picture is of Grout, but it's actually his incredibly old wife whom he never turned and died of old age. He thought of her old age as an "illness." Insanity.

I was thrown off because her actual character model doesn't look all that old.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Too bad we'll never get a sequel from the original creative team that could perhaps explain just what this was and with whom and just why exactly that skeleton was chained to the bed or why there was even a skeleton when the lore states that he should have only been ashes.

this isn't tru--

or why there was even a skeleton when the lore states that he should have only been ashes.

The lore states the corpse rapidly deteriorates to a state it would have been if the Cainite died at the moment of his Embrace. It is completely likely the likes of Vykos or even Tremere would leave a 1000 year old skeleton behind, let alone someone turned as recently as Grout.

 

[J1M]

I don't recall the player leaving a trail of bones in his wake.

I always assumed it was an artistic decision because they didn't trust the audience to figure it out from just ashes.

 

[Storyfag]

I don't recall the player leaving a trail of bones in his wake.

Indeed, this is one of the few instances where the game is not consistent with the source material.

Easily forgivable though.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

I think it’s possible to make a contemporary urban fantasy crpg without inserting obnoxious partisan messages. If we can do it for imaginary pasts and futures, then we should be able to do it for imaginary presents.

I don’t think the topic IP is suited for this, even if it wasn’t owned by Paradox. It has a blatantly partisan counterculture message baked into it since its inception three decades ago. Even the mechanics reflect this, with it being impossible to increase your magical power without literally cannibalizing the higher ups. “Eat the rich” indeed. The other games in the IP are no better in this regard: e.g. the werewolves are eco-terrorists and the wizards think science is bad/wrong.

If we want contemporary urban fantasy crpgs, then these will have to come from somewhere else. But that’s just my opinion after years of burnout

I won’t deny that people want to shove blatant and lazy political posturing in VTM but Diablerie being that directly tied to “eat the rich” is something I kinda disagree with.

Really the only ones who do diablerie are the Sabbat and that’s because they are insane, not because they are part of the proletariat. Also, absorbing or eating or whatever higher level stuff is a trope that existed long before Marx and Engels.

 

[Roguey]

I don't recall the player leaving a trail of bones in his wake.

I always assumed it was an artistic decision because they didn't trust the audience to figure it out from just ashes.

I mean there's a stake there too. And why are his feet chained to the bed? What reason could there be to do that?

 

[Storyfag]

Really the only ones who do diablerie are the Sabbat and that’s because they are insane

Oh how naive you are. Please step into the vohzd pit for... reeducation.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I think it’s possible to make a contemporary urban fantasy crpg without inserting obnoxious partisan messages. If we can do it for imaginary pasts and futures, then we should be able to do it for imaginary presents.

I don’t think the topic IP is suited for this, even if it wasn’t owned by Paradox. It has a blatantly partisan counterculture message baked into it since its inception three decades ago. Even the mechanics reflect this, with it being impossible to increase your magical power without literally cannibalizing the higher ups. “Eat the rich” indeed. The other games in the IP are no better in this regard: e.g. the werewolves are eco-terrorists and the wizards think science is bad/wrong.

If we want contemporary urban fantasy crpgs, then these will have to come from somewhere else. But that’s just my opinion after years of burnout

I won’t deny that people want to shove blatant and lazy political posturing in VTM but Diablerie being that directly tied to “eat the rich” is something I kinda disagree with.

Really the only ones who do diablerie are the Sabbat and that’s because they are insane, not because they are part of the proletariat. Also, absorbing or eating or whatever higher level stuff is a trope that existed long before Marx and Engels.

What is the purpose in designing a game so that you cannot advance your character's mystical potential without committing heinous acts of magical cannibalism?

 

[Cricket McBangle]

Well you can still level up by gaining XP. If you’re talking about Generations (which aren’t analogous to “levels”), Diablerie is a shortcut but if you do it, you’ll be labeled a Vampire fugitive and hunted down.

There are many other roads to power (rituals performed by the Baali, Assamite, Tremere) but those playing Vampire aren’t usually doing it to level up and get stronger like they might in other TTRPGs.

Really the only ones who do diablerie are the Sabbat and that’s because they are insane

Oh how naive you are. Please step into the vohzd pit for... reeducation.

You’ll have to do better than that for me to ever step foot in a place like Montreal, Canada.

 

[Cael]

I think it’s possible to make a contemporary urban fantasy crpg without inserting obnoxious partisan messages. If we can do it for imaginary pasts and futures, then we should be able to do it for imaginary presents.

I don’t think the topic IP is suited for this, even if it wasn’t owned by Paradox. It has a blatantly partisan counterculture message baked into it since its inception three decades ago. Even the mechanics reflect this, with it being impossible to increase your magical power without literally cannibalizing the higher ups. “Eat the rich” indeed. The other games in the IP are no better in this regard: e.g. the werewolves are eco-terrorists and the wizards think science is bad/wrong.

If we want contemporary urban fantasy crpgs, then these will have to come from somewhere else. But that’s just my opinion after years of burnout

I won’t deny that people want to shove blatant and lazy political posturing in VTM but Diablerie being that directly tied to “eat the rich” is something I kinda disagree with.

Really the only ones who do diablerie are the Sabbat and that’s because they are insane, not because they are part of the proletariat. Also, absorbing or eating or whatever higher level stuff is a trope that existed long before Marx and Engels.

Is diablerie any different to "There can be only ONE!!"

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I think it’s possible to make a contemporary urban fantasy crpg without inserting obnoxious partisan messages. If we can do it for imaginary pasts and futures, then we should be able to do it for imaginary presents.

I don’t think the topic IP is suited for this, even if it wasn’t owned by Paradox. It has a blatantly partisan counterculture message baked into it since its inception three decades ago. Even the mechanics reflect this, with it being impossible to increase your magical power without literally cannibalizing the higher ups. “Eat the rich” indeed. The other games in the IP are no better in this regard: e.g. the werewolves are eco-terrorists and the wizards think science is bad/wrong.

If we want contemporary urban fantasy crpgs, then these will have to come from somewhere else. But that’s just my opinion after years of burnout

I won’t deny that people want to shove blatant and lazy political posturing in VTM but Diablerie being that directly tied to “eat the rich” is something I kinda disagree with.

Really the only ones who do diablerie are the Sabbat and that’s because they are insane, not because they are part of the proletariat. Also, absorbing or eating or whatever higher level stuff is a trope that existed long before Marx and Engels.

Is diablerie any different to "There can be only ONE!!"

Right! I was actually going to say that the writers probably got the idea from Highlander but changed my mind. In any case, I very much dislike the mechanic. Even the most casual players I’ve talked to are all munchkins who buy as much as they can during character creation. VtR changed it so that you can increase your PC’s trait caps all the way to 10 by spending xp or playing for centuries of in-game time (and all without needing to perform heinous acts that get your character hunted down for being a cannibalistic psychopathic killer), but good luck finding anyone who wants to play.

 

[Trithne]

I think it’s possible to make a contemporary urban fantasy crpg without inserting obnoxious partisan messages. If we can do it for imaginary pasts and futures, then we should be able to do it for imaginary presents.

I don’t think the topic IP is suited for this, even if it wasn’t owned by Paradox. It has a blatantly partisan counterculture message baked into it since its inception three decades ago. Even the mechanics reflect this, with it being impossible to increase your magical power without literally cannibalizing the higher ups. “Eat the rich” indeed. The other games in the IP are no better in this regard: e.g. the werewolves are eco-terrorists and the wizards think science is bad/wrong.

If we want contemporary urban fantasy crpgs, then these will have to come from somewhere else. But that’s just my opinion after years of burnout

I won’t deny that people want to shove blatant and lazy political posturing in VTM but Diablerie being that directly tied to “eat the rich” is something I kinda disagree with.

Really the only ones who do diablerie are the Sabbat and that’s because they are insane, not because they are part of the proletariat. Also, absorbing or eating or whatever higher level stuff is a trope that existed long before Marx and Engels.

Is diablerie any different to "There can be only ONE!!"

Right! I was actually going to say that the writers probably got the idea from Highlander but changed my mind. In any case, I very much dislike the mechanic. Even the most casual players I’ve talked to are all munchkins who buy as much as they can during character creation. VtR changed it so that you can increase your PC’s trait caps all the way to 10 by spending xp or playing for centuries of in-game time (and all without needing to perform heinous acts that get your character hunted down for being a cannibalistic psychopathic killer), but good luck finding anyone who wants to play.

VtM is Classic Storyteller. You're supposed to min-max at creation, it's infinitely more efficient to buy higher dot ratings at chargen and with BP than it is to buy them with EXP. Storyteller characters start out great in their field of choice, and pick up other skills to round themselves out during play.

 

[Delterius]

without committing heinous acts of magical cannibalism?

Is it that heinous really

 

[Sarathiour]

Is it that heinous really

We're still talking about eating people ? I'll go for a yes then.