World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

[Heroic Liberator]

Some of it was pastiche/ripoff and some of it was just random ideas shoved into a vampire mold. [...] Anyway, “They didn’t have hindsight” isn’t a good excuse three decades and so many editions later. It’s fiction. It can be revised and rebooted.

I agree, but ultimately as random as it was - it was primarily a product of that pop culture, whether it was directly related to other vamp works that they had plagiarized or just unrelated stuff that was 'cool' back then that they integrated within their vamp setting (akin to what Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen or the more modern Penny Dreadful TV show did with Victorian pop culture in order to make a hodgepodge of a setting which comes together as aesthetically pleasing). Issue with updating WoD (besides WW being a bunch of hack frauds whose idea of an update boils down to making it inoffensive rather than necessarily better) is that that sort of hodgepodge is precisely what gives it its charm. And yes, you'll get a 'higher quality' vamp setting if you take it all out, but at that point it would stop being the same setting in terms of atmosphere and aesthetic appeal. WoD is a time capsule, same as with the cyberpunk genre. And to work on that parallel - sure, you could make a cyberpunk setting 'better' as a SF work by removing the silly notion of a Japanese ascendancy with its great impact on global culture (although that yellow scare can at least be updated from Japanese to Chinese in order to keep the East Asian aesthetics) and replacing the various technologies that today appear as being implausible retrofuturistic stuff rather than SF high tech for a 21st century audience, but at that point you've just neutered it into a contemporary SF work with the same sort of themes as cyberpunk rather than it being an updated cyberpunk work. Can't have cyberpunk without the 'retro' and neither can you have WoD.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Anyway, I didn't say that 5+1 Traitor NPC class+1 EVIL class structure was bad, it just that it repeats itself too often, even after the vampire games, which you are seemingly mono-focused. The writers did try to stop repeating the same numbers with stuff such as Changeling The Lost IIRC.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply it’s bad. I just don’t think there’s much anything else they could do. Requiem and Forsaken were just trying to reduce the redundancy from their predecessors (re: the multiple lordly splats distinguished mostly by additional superpowers) and Awakening was just along for the ride (the paths are based loosely on the five classical elements and the Orders were made up without basis in prior work). Lost had 6 seemings based on fairy tale archetypes and 4 courts based on seasons, which isn’t significantly different from the prior 5x5. I’m pretty sure Promethean broke that too but it’s been forever since I read. Vigil didn’t have a fixed number of splats and definitely benefits from that freedom: one of the splats is basically Blue Exorcist while another is basically the Chronos Corporation.

I think the 5x5/6x4/whatever format works just fine for a game. I haven’t seen anything better anyway.

EDIT: I’m not from gaming den but I read their After Sundown game and the tone felt insulting to the reader.

Also, remember: Many things were done because they were cool. If WW wanted to do seriously freaky vampires, they could have borrowed the char creation tables of Nightbane, but that's another can of worms.

They could’ve always leaned into b-movie campiness. I’d forgive a lot of their shit if they could make fun of themselves rather than be painfully pretentious all the time.

And yes, you'll get a 'higher quality' vamp setting if you take it all out, but at that point it would stop being the same setting in terms of atmosphere and aesthetic appeal.

I don’t find that argument convincing since Requiem seemingly did just fine by basically sanding a few edges here and there (I still think it’s pretentious af but at least we got characters like “Count F**king Dracula” or a Bogleech pastiche out of it), but even so they could’ve leaned into campiness instead of pretension.

No mention of the xiang shi hopping and skipping. That's a missed opportunity. Can you imagine a whole vamp council running a city from the shadows, and they can't move without making these weird bunny jumps?

It would be hilarious and immediately set the tone. I’m tired of all the “crawling in my skin!” mopey vampires. (Watch JLongbone’s sporking of AMC’s Interview with the Vampire if you wanna laugh.) I want to see writers have fun with the genre again. If that means b-movie camp, then sign me up.

 

[Twiglard]

it's neither the story nor even the vampire theme (nor the VtM brand, although I agree that the latter might've helped in its subsequent popularization), but the sort of night (& often low) life atmosphere that it manages to consistently evoke throughout combined with the setting's pastiche style of 1990s pop cultural elements that give flavor and soul to the various NPCs & the hubs that they inhabit.

I think Dragonfall's art direction and lighting had similar potential, if only they used it more judiciously (see how Underrail does it with its greens and reds, with generally less overall graphical aptitude) rather than splatter oversaturated highlights onto each and every scenery sprite. But if you look at the Bazaar's flat ground tiles, you can see that they all have some form of colored gradient on them. There's a lot of subtle lights practically everywhere with well-chosen color palette. They could've done so much with it. Alas.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I don’t find that argument convincing since Requiem seemingly did just fine by basically sanding a few edges here and there (I still think it’s pretentious af but at least we got characters like “Count F**king Dracula” or a Bogleech pastiche out of it), but even so they could’ve leaned into campiness instead of pretension.

I'm not that familiar with VtR (besides being against the broader changes that they've made to sects and clans which might've biased me against it), so I can't really argue with that. Ultimately though, I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

it's neither the story nor even the vampire theme (nor the VtM brand, although I agree that the latter might've helped in its subsequent popularization), but the sort of night (& often low) life atmosphere that it manages to consistently evoke throughout combined with the setting's pastiche style of 1990s pop cultural elements that give flavor and soul to the various NPCs & the hubs that they inhabit.

I think Dragonfall's art direction and lighting had similar potential, if only they used it more judiciously (see how Underrail does it with its greens and reds, with generally less overall graphical aptitude) rather than splatter oversaturated highlights onto each and every scenery sprite. But if you look at the Bazaar's flat ground tiles, you can see that they all have some form of colored gradient on them. There's a lot of subtle lights practically everywhere with well-chosen color palette. They could've done so much with it. Alas.

I've quite enjoyed DF (& HK) both for the art direction and the NPCs tbh.

 

[NecroLord]

The story provides an explanation, it just doesn't spell it out.

No it doesn't. The reasons behind the PCs spikes in power are never directly confirmed by anything in the game. "Cabbie Caine is empowering you" is the most commonly accepted and plausible theory, but it's just that - a theory.

Off-screen Diablerie could also fit, for example.

You're the MacGuffin Man's pawn. The emails say it. Andrei says it.

"The game begins. A pawn is moved".

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I'm not that familiar with VtR (besides being against the broader changes that they've made to sects and clans which might've biased me against it), so I can't really argue with that. Ultimately though, I guess it's just a matter of personal preference.

It’s a glorified rehash with different window dressing updated for the then-contemporary 2000s. imo the hate against it is overblown and misplaced. Then again, I may be biased because I was introduced to CoD before I was introduced to WoD.

While it did have problems, and by god did it have problems (remember how VtM has a few dozen bloodlines? VtR easily has twice that much), overall I’m glad that the writers had a few years to exercise their creative muscles before the neverending nostalgia train ran them over. The Khaibit and Cult of Seth in particular are just *chef’s kiss*. (For reference: They’re vampire superheroes/demon-hunters with shadow powers who venerate the Egyptian god Seth in his original incarnation as Ra’s bodyguard against the evil Apophis. Also they like pulling potentially quite destructive “pranks” to stave off the evils of stagnation and entropy.)

 

[lightbane]

I think the 5x5/6x4/whatever format works just fine for a game. I haven’t seen anything better anyway.

Fair enough. The issue though is how every splat had their own special words for no other reason than they could. Even the Promethean that are as asocial as you can get. But that comes from oWoD anyway.

EDIT: I’m not from gaming den but I read their After Sundown game and the tone felt insulting to the reader.

Can't remember much of that place. The constant vitriol was funny at first, but in the end it gets boring. That particular game I don't remember much other than being WoD but edgier.

It’s a glorified rehash with different window dressing updated for the then-contemporary 2000s. imo the hate against it is overblown and misplaced. Then again, I may be biased because I was introduced to CoD before I was introduced to WoD.

It had terrible mechanics (you couldn't move and attack in the first edition IIRC) and lots of unexplained things, but it had its charm. I remember reading all of C: The Lost books until I realized the game is nearly impossible to play without lots of houserules and how the whole hidden society aspect didn't really work with Changelings ("we're all escaped abuse victims that locking us down will make us chimp out, but we still have enough numbers and resources to make elaborate societies somehow").

The Khaibit and Cult of Seth in particular are just *chef’s kiss*. (For reference: They’re vampire superheroes/demon-hunters with shadow powers who venerate the Egyptian god Seth in his original incarnation as Ra’s bodyguard against the evil Apophis. Also they like pulling potentially quite destructive “pranks” to stave off the evils of stagnation and entropy.)

The "prestige classes" were something unique indeed. There was that subclan of vamps that listened to special radiowaves containing questions that they had to answer in a limited time or suffer a severe case of "exploding head" syndrome.

 

[Harthwain]

Anyone could do that and it's doesn't scream originality, but what are you gonna do? Ripoff WW while lying that you aren't?

It's quite entertaining read. It also inspired me to think a bit about how I would make things my way:

1) Vampirism - It's essentially a virus. The more blood you drink, the more likely you are to infect that person. Unless you drink too much, then the result is death. Neither case is deal if you want to keep things under the wraps. Additionally, blood is like a drug for vampires. They have to keep themselves in check while drinking it. Which is harder as time goes on, for obvious reasons.

2) Supernatural powers - You get some superhuman qualities (sensitivity to sun, night vision, super strength/speed, hyper regeneration, unaging, etc.) but I would stay away from something like turning into a mist or a bat. The idea of vampires acting like "spies" in human society is more interesting to me than vampires having superhuman battles at night or somesuch.

3) Relationships - Since vampirism is a disease (with no unique characteristics/powers between each vampire), there are no bloodlines or inherent "Clans" or related powers. Instead vampires organize themselves based on their personal realtionships. Power of each individual and group would depend on who knows who. Oh, and since vampirism is easy to spread, everyone is responsible for making sure new vampires (or vampire-related accidents) don't happen. Otherwise the sanctioned cleaners are going to clean up anyone involved.

4) Secrecy - Vampires keep their activities hidden for a bunch of reasons. It is easier to manipulate people that way. It is also safer than waging war on mankind. The all-out war would have the effect of necessitating the existence of substantial standing army. Considering how blood works you don't want the logistic headache involved or risk demand exceeding supply, so keeping numbers low is better strategy.

To make sure the count stays low and humans are kept largely in the dark there is the Inquisiton. Why the name? Because it was the vampires' idea to start an organization centred around hunting down the supernatural back then for the purpose of maintaining control over it and to use it against those who stepped out of the line. The name (and the title of an Inquisitor) is the reminder of that era. They look more like Men in Black than a wannabe Van Helsings, although I suppose they could cosplay as such, if they needed to make it public and pin the blame on some religious freaks.

I could go on, but I think this is enough to show how I would make my own vampire setting and how remote it is from Vampire: The Masquerade, despite taking the general idea of "modern vampires hidden in plain sight".

 

[hello friend]

That sounds incredibly boring tbh. Vampires are supposed to be unsettling demons inspiring helplessness in their victims, hating living, hating life, and hating themselves, but without self pity. Just pure hatred. I imagine vampire society to be one of resentful codependency of people barely being able to stand each other but what else have they got? - and anyway the tyrannical rule of the local patriarch will not be controverted. Like sociopaths on steroids, if they meet one not under their control or not under the begrudged control of their master they go full beast and just try to them apart. Not sure how you'd turn it into a game but I'd like to play it.

 

[NecroLord]

Something, something, vampires suck blood and are inhumane, parasitical creatures of the night.

 

[hello friend]

If it doesn't shun the cross it's not a real vampire

 

[NecroLord]

If it doesn't shun the cross it's not a real vampire

 

[Heroic Liberator]

If it doesn't shun the cross it's not a real vampire

 

[Harthwain]

That sounds incredibly boring tbh. Vampires are supposed to be unsettling demons inspiring helplessness in their victims, hating living, hating life, and hating themselves, but without self pity. Just pure hatred.

There is no need for literal demons when humans can be monsters too. Now imagine someone who is an addict, but with more power than your average human. A trip from here to there can be a shockingly short one.

 

[hello friend]

If your setting is magical crackhead disease, well, that's a lot less compelling.

This is a vampire (timestamp):


Scientific vampires don't cut it. You take the juice out of the apple.

 

[Delterius]

If it doesn't shun the cross it's not a real vampire

second guy was like 'oh shit so it *can* work?' and so it did

 

[Harthwain]

If your setting is magical crackhead disease, well, that's a lot less compelling. [...] Scientific vampires don't cut it. You take the juice out of the apple.

I like to keep it more grounded than "100 buddah saints and several orbital nukes are needed to bring down an ancient vampire". Superpowers weren't the main draw to Vampire: The Masquerade for me anyway. To each their own, I guess.

 

[hello friend]

"100 buddah saints and several orbital nukes are needed to bring down an ancient vampire". Superpowers weren't the main draw to Vampire: The Masquerade for me anyway.

Yeah, no, I agree that shit is gay. My point is that midichlorians is never cool. It's not about the power level. Vampires are at their best as pure predators. Like that serial killer guy who seduced a bunch of women and killed and ate them - any kind of sexuality in a vampire should be pretense. None of this new shit. A hunting strategy. No aesthetic preference beyond that necessary to ensnare the aesthetically minded. They don't listen to music when there's no one around. They don't read books for fun. The ideal vampire is the social equivalent of the xenomorph in human guise. Empty and petty and sick.

I'm talking about EVIL. Superheroes are mythological heroes without the mythology, and vampire bacteria are vampires without the evil. It takes the life out of the concept and renders it dull.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

The issue though is how every splat had their own special words for no other reason than they could. Even the Promethean that are as asocial as you can get. But that comes from oWoD anyway.

Yeah, I think the jargon in all the games is ridiculous for multiple reasons. It doesn't make any sense to be so standardized, especially given the vast gulfs in time and space between these secret societies. A lot of it just feels completely arbitrary and not remotely like what real people in such circumstances would come up with. It sounds like it was invented by mall goths based on cool factor and idiosyncratic esoteric lines of etymology that only make sense to said mall goths. Perhaps the silliest part is that a lot of the flowery gibberish is unnecessary because words for that sort of thing already exist. For example, in other (far less pretentious) vampire fiction the standard terminology for turning someone into a vampire is... turning. Literally just shortening. Even Bloodlines shied away from using the in-game jargon as much as possible (check the script if you don't believe me). Seeing folks in this thread repeat this ridiculous jargon with no self-awareness constantly pings my silly radar.

And don't think I don't criticize D&D for doing similar stuff. When they get their research wrong, I criticize them. Them having to constantly scramble for names when introducing races, classes, monsters, etc gets painful after a while. There's nothing wrong with giving your fantasy stuff self-explanatory names with more than one syllable and in English.

That particular game I don't remember much other than being WoD but edgier.

You can read it here: https://thegamingden.github.io/after-sundown/

It's not a straight up ripoff like Vampire: Undeath, but unlike Everlasting it outright copies names from WoD/CoD even though it has absolutely no reason to. It's honestly not really much like WoD/CoD at all. But God, the tone of the writing is insufferable to me somehow. WoD is ridiculously pretentious, but this feels like its constantly talking down to the reader.

It had terrible mechanics (you couldn't move and attack in the first edition IIRC) and lots of unexplained things, but it had its charm.

Characters could move and attack, but had to sacrifice their attack action to move twice as fast or to do an all-out defense. It's the same as in d20.

Here's a recap of some problems if you're interested.

("we're all escaped abuse victims that locking us down will make us chimp out, but we still have enough numbers and resources to make elaborate societies somehow").

This is a problem with all the splats, honestly. The population dynamics have never made sense in the three decades the IP has existed. Whenever the books do deign to give specific numbers, the calculations result in each faction having less than a dozen members each. That's not a secret society: that's a club house. Not to mention the ongoing issue that all the secret societies are written using high school clique dynamics rather than secret societies or political parties.

There was that subclan of vamps that listened to special radiowaves containing questions that they had to answer in a limited time or suffer a severe case of "exploding head" syndrome.

Like their head literally exploding Scanners-style or just being really distracted? Either way, that sounds hilariously weird.

Anyone could do that and it's doesn't scream originality, but what are you gonna do? Ripoff WW while lying that you aren't?

It's quite entertaining read. It also inspired me to think a bit about how I would make things my way:

1) Vampirism - It's essentially a virus. The more blood you drink, the more likely you are to infect that person. Unless you drink too much, then the result is death. Neither case is deal if you want to keep things under the wraps. Additionally, blood is like a drug for vampires. They have to keep themselves in check while drinking it. Which is harder as time goes on, for obvious reasons.

2) Supernatural powers - You get some superhuman qualities (sensitivity to sun, night vision, super strength/speed, hyper regeneration, unaging, etc.) but I would stay away from something like turning into a mist or a bat. The idea of vampires acting like "spies" in human society is more interesting to me than vampires having superhuman battles at night or somesuch.

3) Relationships - Since vampirism is a disease (with no unique characteristics/powers between each vampire), there are no bloodlines or inherent "Clans" or related powers. Instead vampires organize themselves based on their personal realtionships. Power of each individual and group would depend on who knows who. Oh, and since vampirism is easy to spread, everyone is responsible for making sure new vampires (or vampire-related accidents) don't happen. Otherwise the sanctioned cleaners are going to clean up anyone involved.

4) Secrecy - Vampires keep their activities hidden for a bunch of reasons. It is easier to manipulate people that way. It is also safer than waging war on mankind. The all-out war would have the effect of necessitating the existence of substantial standing army. Considering how blood works you don't want the logistic headache involved or risk demand exceeding supply, so keeping numbers low is better strategy.

To make sure the count stays low and humans are kept largely in the dark there is the Inquisiton. Why the name? Because it was the vampires' idea to start an organization centred around hunting down the supernatural back then for the purpose of maintaining control over it and to use it against those who stepped out of the line. The name (and the title of an Inquisitor) is the reminder of that era. They look more like Men in Black than a wannabe Van Helsings, although I suppose they could cosplay as such, if they needed to make it public and pin the blame on some religious freaks.

I could go on, but I think this is enough to show how I would make my own vampire setting and how remote it is from Vampire: The Masquerade, despite taking the general idea of "modern vampires hidden in plain sight".

Neat. I agree with dropping bloodlines on principle because I feel way too people used it as a crutch to predetermine their character for them rather than express creatively. (Hence all the "you're playing your character wrong!" dogmatism.)

My idea for a vampire setting was to ditch the focus on vampires and have them all rub shoulders with other urban fantasy characters like shapeshifters, magicians, fairies and so on. But even so there'd be multiple different species of each to keep them from becoming homogenous and predictable. Most of the accepted magical beings were those that didn't spread like a plague, but every so often something like that pops up and has to be put down.

Quite frankly I'm annoyed that urban fantasy has been completely subsumed into paranormal romance and want to see more that focuses on non-romance topics.

That sounds incredibly boring tbh. Vampires are supposed to be unsettling demons inspiring helplessness in their victims, hating living, hating life, and hating themselves, but without self pity. Just pure hatred. I imagine vampire society to be one of resentful codependency of people barely being able to stand each other but what else have they got? - and anyway the tyrannical rule of the local patriarch will not be controverted. Like sociopaths on steroids, if they meet one not under their control or not under the begrudged control of their master they go full beast and just try to them apart. Not sure how you'd turn it into a game but I'd like to play it.

I think there are a couple of indie ttrpgs like that. Let me check my notes...

• Blood Dark Thirst https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/223788/Blood-Dark-Thirst
• By Night We Thirst https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/219754/By-Night-We-Thirst
• Feed https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/124387/Feed
• Hungry Desperate and Alone http://lumpley.com/hungry.html
• Liminal https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/267203/Liminal
• Night's Black Agents https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/106783/Nights-Black-Agents
• The Blood https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/333015/The-Blood--Quickstart
• The Blood Hack https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/202601/The-Blood-Hack
• The Vampire: Alone in the Darkness https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/329920/Vampire--Alone-in-the-Darkness
• Undying https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/174206/Undying
• Urban Shadows https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/333500/Urban-Shadows-2nd-Ed-Quickstart
• Vampire City https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/99313/Vampire-City-English

All these games generally treat vampires as pitiless monsters or offer that as a core option.

I like to keep it more grounded than "100 buddah saints and several orbital nukes are needed to bring down an ancient vampire". Superpowers weren't the main draw to Vampire: The Masquerade for me anyway. To each their own, I guess.

Superpowers are moderately interesting ways to exploit vampirism, but I definitely agree that WoD went into comic book superheroes territory without ever owning up to it. "Our game is a totally serious exploration of the human condition!" they say and still expect anyone to believe it. I'd have a lot more patience for their bullshit if they were honest with themselves and owned up to it.

 

[Harthwain]

Vampires are at their best as pure predators. Like that serial killer guy who seduced a bunch of women and killed and ate them - any kind of sexuality in a vampire should be pretense. None of this new shit. A hunting strategy. No aesthetic preference beyond that necessary to ensnare the aesthetically minded. They don't listen to music when there's no one around. They don't read books for fun. The ideal vampire is the social equivalent of the xenomorph in human guise. Empty and petty and sick.

I see what you're saying, but this sounds like something that would work solo, not as an RPG with several players/characters involved (as party). A twist on Hitman comes to mind. Lucius (2012) is another game giving me similar vibes to what you're describing.

I'm talking about EVIL. Superheroes are mythological heroes without the mythology, and vampire bacteria are vampires without the evil. It takes the life out of the concept and renders it dull.

Just because the "vampire curse" is caused by bacteria doesn't mean the character can't be evil or become evil after becoming one. I mean, we do have humans who are fully capable of being evil. Vampires are pretty much the same, only amplified because of their newfound condition and powers. Hell, the characters/players/readers don't even need to know what causes the "curse", just as vampires from Masquerade have no real idea (beyond myths). It is possible to leave it up to speculation. I am mostly saying it's a disease, because it reflects strongly on other elements in the setting, compared to a more conventional approach.

Also, not sure about your point on superheroes. Superheroes are popular. Much more popular than mythological heroes, I'd wager.

Quite frankly I'm annoyed that urban fantasy has been completely subsumed into paranormal romance and want to see more that focuses on non-romance topics.

I am not surprised. Vampires have certain connotations assigned to them. The good part is you can easily turn a would-be romance romance into a tragedy really quick.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I am not surprised. Vampires have certain connotations assigned to them. The good part is you can easily turn a would-be romance romance into a tragedy really quick.

You mean how they’ve been co-opted into sex symbols (often abusive boyfriends who treat the heroine like dirt) and all the vampire genre fans I can find are either straight women or “queer folx”?

The rabbit hole goes real deep. I did some research and it turns out most of the authors who wrote the original gothic vampires like Ruthven, Vardalek and Dracula were gay men working through their issues in their writing… which depicted vampires as monsters who killed everyone they came into contact with. And I found two gothic vampire stories that used vampires to handle race relations… by depicting them as bringing ruination and death to everyone they encountered. I don’t think using vampires this way is remotely progressive or even makes logical sense. The unifying thread of all these stories is that vampires by their nature kill everyone around them, whether they want to or not. Gothic vampires are either deliberate villains who kill the heroes (for darker endings) or are slain by the heroes (for more conventional happy endings), or tragic victims of their own curse who kill everyone they love before their own suffering finally ends via their own demise (for really dark endings). Not what you would call uplifting material.

I cannot for the life of me understand why so many people fetishize this stuff. Vampires kill everyone around them. Abusive boyfriends are assholes. None of that is remotely sexy.

 

[Tyranicon]

I cannot for the life of me understand why so many people fetishize this stuff. Vampires kill everyone around them. Abusive boyfriends are assholes. None of that is remotely sexy.

People are a nonsensical soup of genetic abnormalities and psychological damage.

That explains a lot of why we are the way we are.

 

[hello friend]

Vampires are at their best as pure predators. Like that serial killer guy who seduced a bunch of women and killed and ate them - any kind of sexuality in a vampire should be pretense. None of this new shit. A hunting strategy. No aesthetic preference beyond that necessary to ensnare the aesthetically minded. They don't listen to music when there's no one around. They don't read books for fun. The ideal vampire is the social equivalent of the xenomorph in human guise. Empty and petty and sick.

I see what you're saying, but this sounds like something that would work solo, not as an RPG with several players/characters involved (as party). A twist on Hitman comes to mind. Lucius (2012) is another game giving me similar vibes to what you're describing.

It might work in a mafia-type game, where you're working for the organisation and you can't go directly against the local master because of some blood compulsion, but you could try to find a way to engineer a situation in which someone else might be able to kill him while you would be unable to do anything about it, and thus be freed of that influence - at which point it becomes a free-for-all scramble.

I'm talking about EVIL. Superheroes are mythological heroes without the mythology, and vampire bacteria are vampires without the evil. It takes the life out of the concept and renders it dull.

Just because the "vampire curse" is caused by bacteria doesn't mean the character can't be evil or become evil after becoming one. I mean, we do have humans who are fully capable of being evil. Vampires are pretty much the same, only amplified because of their newfound condition and powers. Hell, the characters/players/readers don't even need to know what causes the "curse", just as vampires from Masquerade have no real idea (beyond myths). It is possible to leave it up to speculation. I am mostly saying it's a disease, because it reflects strongly on other elements in the setting, compared to a more conventional approach.

There is a level of wrongness people can achieve that has an almost unearthly feel to it, seriously mentally ill people and sometimes druggies get there, too, depending on what they're taking and the environment they're taking it in, their psychology etc. By explicitly stating that your setting's characters are supernaturally twisted you can capitalise on it and tap into that unearthliness - of course this requires some suspension of disbelief, particularly for people of a certain frame of mind. If you go the other way you instead make said characters more mundane - you lean more into human tragedy. I have a strong bias, I'll admit to that - if I see a horror film and it turns out the mystery is all a big misundestanding or a hoax instead of a ghost or what have you, to me it looks like a lazy cop out and a cheap way to end things.

Also, not sure about your point on superheroes. Superheroes are popular. Much more popular than mythological heroes, I'd wager.

Superheroes are awful on a conceptual level. It's magic for atheists. There's no quest, only mundane people with mundane hopes and dreams who happen to have been bitten by a radioactive mosquito. It isn't scientific, but it adopts a vague shell of anti-fantasy for the terminally unimaginative. They dress up in gay costumes, too. Man I hate it so much, it's like if someone tried to tell me how lovecraft's dagon was actually a crash landed alien from neptune and his undersea temple was actually a cleverly disguised spaceship jury rigged into an underwater base and would affect peoples minds by beaming them with 5g weaponry. It just doesn't belong there.

 

[FritzedProcess]

If it doesn't shun the cross it's not a real vampire

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I cannot for the life of me understand why so many people fetishize this stuff. Vampires kill everyone around them. Abusive boyfriends are assholes. None of that is remotely sexy.

From an earlier discussion,

On a more serious note,I never understood this fixation with vamps and how they fuck.

It's a consequence of the tropes inherent to modern portrayals of vampires that go all the way back to Gothic horror and to novels like Dracula. Even if the vampire main character isn't being overtly sexualized, he's being portrayed as a charmer who seduces his female victims and the act of embracing in itself carries erotic undertones (i.e. the neck biting being visually akin to sexual foreplay, although it precedes the consummation of a different kind of act; not to mention that the vampire's hunger itself parallels sexual urges). Overt sexualization just takes that a step further by adopting the outlook of the charmed victim (which is either played straight just as there are people who fetishize serial killers and the like or subverted by replacing the predator trope for a misunderstood prince charming one in which the vampire doesn't intend to kill the victim, but to turn them as for them to share eternity together).