World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Roguey]

So, I'm genuinely curious here, are people more confident in a narrative done by Pinchbeck or by Mitsoda and his team?

I gotta be honest, I do think I would trust Pinchbeck a bit more here, though I do think Mitsoda probably understands the setting better having done the previous game. While I don't think the previous game outside of that Anarch girl would have had too many direct continuations from the first, I do lean towards making a game that is clearly in the same universe but a separate story.

I'm not confident in either but Mitsoda shredded a ton of dignity to do Bloodlines 2 and I know it would have been an embarrassment just from what he was saying and what they showed.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

https://chaoticenigma.artstation.com/projects/w0x0YX

https://chaoticenigma.artstation.com/projects/kQZQx2

Here's where the videos came from plus a few extra screenshots.

 

[J1M]

The implication there is that he's about to cut off your hand with that cleaver if you take his hand. 90s edgy-cool malkavian.

From my contact with the original HSL developers I know who this was supposed to be, but any observant Bloodlines fan can figure it out !

cringeinducing "sex positive" writing

This means "too many sluts per game"?

The implication there is that he's about to cut off your hand with that cleaver if you take his hand. 90s edgy-cool malkavian.

From my contact with the original HSL developers I know who this was supposed to be, but any observant Bloodlines fan can figure it out !

Could it be he was a modernized re-imagined Cain? That would be horrifying.

Oh god, was it Vandal? His full name was Vandal Cleaver, and he has a cleaver in his hand too...

Damp was supposed to be a serial killer, and because most pictures of him include a rose on his suit and Mitsoda's trademark fingerless gloves, I falsely assumed he was a toreador. And because Mitsoda's "alter-ego" from Bloodlines was a toreador ghoul.

I doubt he was supposed to be Vandal, more likely they would've milked yet another imported character like Damsel by simply naming him Vandal instead of Damp. Desperation and all.

Will be interesting to see how they walk back the thin blood and clan choice hooks that were so prominent in the initial marketing.

Losing the main character's thin blood- lineage would be incline. Otherwise ok, but it was almost certain that the angle would've been used as an important social justice- theme throughout the game.

"Sex positive" means "you are forced to observe ugly and disabled people performing degenerate acts". It's about normalizing perversion by inserting this garbage in places where it doesn't belong because nobody would choose to watch it on its own. If it is actually titillating for straight males it has failed.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

longer rant

A good team will deliver a good story in nearly anyone's worldbuilding.

This isn't a rebuttal of what I said. This is the same point I made. You're just acting like it's different because you interpret my statements as personally insulting and don't want to say anything that remotely sounds like you agree with anything I say.

There is no vampire, dark fantasy, or urban fantasy story that cannot be told in the world of darkness.

Shoving a square peg into a round hole to cut off the bits that don't fit does produce a round peg, after all. Popular culture would be so amazing if there was only one IP in existence...

There is no reason to invest in a new IP unless you don't want an in-built audience for it, or if you don't own an IP of your own. Paradox does. Ergo they'll tell stories set in the world of darkness.

Which is working out so well for them, isn't it? While what you say is true in a business sense, commodifying art this way and giving up on creativity has led directly into the current pop culture wasteland we're suffering through. Not to mention AI generated art...

making Bloodlines 2 is neither pointless nor detrimental. It strangles no one's creativity.

Corpos don't have creativity to begin with. That's the problem. They use existing IPs because they lack creativity, their lack of creativity runs those IPs into the ground, then they move on to new IPs to burn out.

Since Troika were the like to make the games they wanted to make and Bloodlines and the wider WoD is what got them going in the first place.

They used the IP because Activison told them to when they pitched their idea because Activision had the license at the time. Troika didn't suggest using that IP first.

I'd also like to reiterate the point that even tabletop campaigns set in the World of Darkness rarely mess with high level lore stuff. People generally focus on, hell, just a gothic punk version of the neighborhoods they live in. Foot-soldiers of the Camarilla don't deal with world ending threats. So the nerd high level meta-lore you seem to dislike so much doesn't even come into consideration. Just as it barely does in the Shadowrun games and Bloodlines itself.

If you really believed that, then you wouldn't so vehemently argue that it is vitally important that we get games set in this IP, even though it's clearly cursed and a good team can produce a good game regardless of IP. Your points that "it is vitally important that we get games set in this IP" and "a good team can produce a good game regardless of IP" contradict each other.

Look, I get that you're a WoD junkie now because you liked Bloodlines and read some articles on Wikia presenting a garbled account of books written thirty years ago. You're obsessed with it and can't write internally consistently logical arguments. You get irrationally upset if you think someone insulted this IP that you've invested your entire identity into. Typical toxic fandom stuff. I know the feeling because I did the exact same thing. I was in the tabletop fandom for a decade, read lots of books, got sick of the religious fanaticism and edition wars, so I left without looking back. Paradox's shitty licensed games have inspired only relief that I left when I did.

Do I exhibit irrational negative emotional responses as a result of my past history, burnout and general jadedness? Yes, and for that I apologize. I'm not trying to personally attack you. I'm jaded and uncharitable af.

I do genuinely like Bloodlines, don't get me wrong, but I give the credit to Troika. I'm not gonna pretend any IP has some magical star power or uniqueness when that's clearly not the case.

This video is talking about multiverses in comic book movies, but the same basic logic can be applied to IPs in general.

 

[Infinitron]

Wesp5 Comments on the gameplay footage?

 

[Delterius]

Look, I get that you're a WoD junkie

Not really. I've merely described reality such as it is. Brand recognition is important, not only in the entertainment industry but in the entirety of our economic lives. I understand that in trying to deny something so self evidently true, you find yourself having to resort to the quote above. 'They must be a WoD fanatic', he says.

This isn't a rebuttal of what I said. This is the same point I made.

On the contrary, you've just moved goalposts. Your original claim was that using an estabilished IP is detrimental. It clearly is not, so now you've had to change tack:

Corpos don't have creativity to begin with. That's the problem. They use existing IPs because they lack creativity

I'm sorry to let you know about this but Troika was a corporation. So was Activision and Valve, and every other place where Troika's developers worked in. Both before and since. So unless you want to estabilish art guilds or youth camps Soviet style, the same environment that produced Bloodlines 1 will have produce Bloodlines 2.

Yes, corporations play it safe. That's why we get D&Desque games every other year and maybe a Bloodlines or a Shadowrun Trilogy once a decade. Which only quadruples the importance of brand recognition for the purposes of pitching a large million dollar multi-year project.

Which is working out so well for them, isn't it?

Y-you think Hardsuit was bad at their jobs because they didn't have the added work of making their own setting? Jesus fucking christ.

Shoving a square peg into a round hole

Is that what you think happened in Bloodlines? Someone clumsily forced the 'Vampire Mafia setting' to tell a story about 'surviving as a grunt of the Vampire Mafia'? Because that statement you just made isn't just wrong, it's insane.

I'm not gonna pretend any IP has some magical star power or uniqueness when that's clearly not the case.

You're the person whose tastes are so arcane and specific you argued with half a dozen people at once, for pages without end, until they all reached the conclusion that the only sort of game you care about or even consider to be urban fantasy just happens to be... exactly like the world of darkness. Curious, isn't it. How making a game in this setting, by default, already has you as a potential customer. Sounds detrimental to the project.

If you really believed that, then you wouldn't so vehemently argue that it is vitally important that we get games set in this IP

I'm sure that's what you think is happening, but no, that's not it. There's no crusade to force people to make games in a setting you dislike for reasons I don't quite understand. There are only economic and circumstancial facts that lead people to make that leap.

The simple fact is that there is no reason why a game shouldn't be set in this IP. There are a great many advantages to doing so. In-built audiences, pre-built marketing, pre-built setting, support from writers of the parent company, the fact that the devs might already like the setting and feel inspired by it, the fact that the devs have a wealth of player work to draw from for inspiration. All the reasons listed against that move are either circumstancial (corps are uncreative therefore they should re-create a vampire setting just for my tastes), or wrong (estabilished settings kill creativity, just look at the much hated Bloodlines!).

Hell, Bloodlines is widely regarded as a textbook story for the standards of the setting. It's WoD played straight, but also masterfully crafted. And it's great. I don't like just reiterating points, but here you go:

Lastly, Bloodlines is much more than just a vampire plotline. It is the animations, the artwork, the art design, the uniqueness of the setting, the rarity of the genre, the voice directing by Rik Schaffer's wife, Schaffer's soundtrack. It's so many things working together in tandem that the idea of it being hampered because the setpieces are from a tabletop game is insane. To me at least. A good team will deliver a good story in nearly anyone's worldbuilding.

The only argument that you're left with is your tirade against 'factoids that nerds jizz themselves over'. Which does betray a certain misplaced hostility towards things that just don't matter. Maybe you just don't like this setting? I mean, I hate Forgotten Realms and Golarion (moreso the latter) but I still play good games set in them. This entire genre makes use of setpieces from tabletop, and it's created some pretty good storylines in doing so. If it can be done with fucking Forgotten Realms, then WoD of all things is not an impediment to anything.

 

[Lambach]

Hardsuit lab's VTMB2 character sheet (Pre-alpha):

Skills are capped at 5 Dots (as they should be for anyone higher than 7th Gen), but Attributes are capped at 4.

My autism is flaring up like a bad rash.

 

[Wesp5]

Wesp5 Comments on the gameplay footage?

It looks pretty much like the stuff they showed me, which was the intro though, and not one of those levels. I think my first comment was that they should add context icons and not only text which they did ! The videos only deepen my suspicion that some polititcal issues were the reason why the old team was fired. Yes, the combat isn't great and the facial animations are typically "Unreal" , but you can't tell me they couldn't have fixed this! I mean I'm still patching the old game, how hard could it be?

 

[Infinitron]

I'm sure it wasn't political. My assumption has always been that Hardsuit failed to scale up - to make everything come together instead of being a bunch of detached demo levels (which may have been impressive enough individually).

But I think if it wasn't that, then it might have been a dispute over the basics of the game's design. Hardsuit wanted one kind of popamole, Paradox wanted another.

 

[Delterius]

The combat seems very alpha. It feels terrible at least in part because there's even less weight to it than Oblivion's.

The videos only deepen my suspicion that some polititcal issues were the reason why the old team was fired.

But I think if it wasn't that, then it might have been a dispute over the basics of the game's design.

I always thought that Occam's Razor pointed to office politics, as it were. Paradox found itself overstretched, and nowadays we understand that they actually cancel projects all the time. If confidence in Hardsuit took a nose dive, then the project would only survive if heads rolled. Inside of Paradox as well, given that Florian was canned together with Mitsoda and the studio. Maybe I got the chronology wrong though. The only PR firing would have been Avellone's.

Speaking of which, correct me if I'm misremembering but I thought Chris left it more or less implicit that he and Brian basically swindled Paradox and convinced them that Hardsuit was much competent than it really was. Everyone who greenlit this thing was destined to eat crow.

 

[Lambach]

It looks pretty much like the stuff they showed me

 

[Roguey]

That "Remember the Ocean House?" level was the exact kind of nostalgia retreading I was dreading and I'm glad it's gone.

 

[ArchAngel]

What is the chance this game is nearly as good as Bloodlines1 ?

 

[BlackheartXIII]

According to Larry Vallely resume (https://chaoticenigma.artstation.com/resumeHardsuit) VTMB2 dev had only a single world builder.

Principal Level Architect / Senior Level Designer: HardSuit Labs Seattle Aug 2018 – Feb 2021
Hardsuit Labs is the developer re-envisioning Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines 2: as well as creator of Blacklight

• Sole World Builder for the Studio.
• Lead Designer For 2 Maps. (Pac-Tower and Contact)
• Build 1 Hub From Scratch (University) And Optimized And Re-envisioned 3 Hubs.
• Built 5 Spokes.
• Built Modular Kits And Asset Lists To Rapidly Deploy Maps.
• Middleman between Design And Environment Art to minimize re-work and enable focused development.
• Visual Storyteller for Studio IP And Ideals.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Is that what you think happened in Bloodlines? Someone clumsily forced the 'Vampire Mafia setting' to tell a story about 'surviving as a grunt of the Vampire Mafia'? Because that statement you just made isn't just wrong, it's insane.

Sorry, my response grew into a rant again. Putting it under a spoiler header.

long rant

You said this:

There is no vampire, dark fantasy, or urban fantasy story that cannot be told in the world of darkness.

When you probably meant to say "if you know you're using WoD IP then you can write a variety of stories within those limits."

Without qualifiers your statement can be interpreted to mean "you can tell any existing story in WoD without making extensive changes that render it unrecognizable."

WoD can only tell stories within very specific parameters. You can't have new clans spontaneously and independently arising throughout history as a result of separate magical curses, you can't have vampires increase their power ceiling simply through age, you can't have werewolves that aren't tied into the ecoterrorism backstory, you can't have ghosts teleport and fly willy-nilly as a standard power, you cannot have any elements introduced in Chronicles of Darkness or Monte Cook's World of Darkness, you cannot have anything existing outside of all the particular and arbitrary rules and backstory that was setup back in the early 90s and have barely changed in the decades since.

Which would be fine if there were any other competing IPs to break up the monopoly.

In many ways, yes WoD is very generic. In other ways it is highly specific. It's not a generic urban fantasy game that you can easily slot any idea into or create your own campaign settings for. Games like that exist, but this isn't one of them.

Maybe you just don't like this setting?

Not anymore, certainly. The fandom is insanely elitist and cultish, like a lot of fandoms that I also don't touch with ten foot poles. Even if they never read Chronicles of Darkness or heard it existed before five minutes ago, you can guarantee they'll robotically repeat "Chronicles sucks and anyone who likes it sucks" because they were told to by the cult. If you haven't encountered those types in this or any other fandom, then I envy you.

Because of the ttrpg market's niche nature and insane first mover advantage, every single other urban fantasy game that tried to enter the market aside from Shadowrun got canceled. It's led to a very bland and uninteresting creative landscape, as with every other time than a single monopoly dominates a genre. This is especially frustrating because ttrpgs should be more creative than other static genres by virtue of theater of the mind.

I see a lot less of this problem in D&D-adjacent fandom. The discourse there actually rewards sharing your ideas for original settings and takes on familiar tropes. It has its own problems, of course.

You're the person whose tastes are so arcane and specific you argued with half a dozen people at once, for pages without end, until they all reached the conclusion that the only sort of game you care about or even consider to be urban fantasy just happens to be... exactly like the world of darkness. Curious, isn't it. How making a game in this setting, by default, already has you as a potential customer. Sounds detrimental to the project.

This is like saying that Arda and Westeros are interchangeable. There are numerous aspects of the IP that I simply am not interested in. Like all the tryhard emo goth shit that reminds me of my cringy teenager phase.

Not to mention that Paradox hasn't produced any worthwhile entries in this IP and we're all only here because we're coasting on nostalgia for Troika's work. Let's be honest, we wouldn't care and this IP would be completely dead right now if it wasn't for Troika putting it on the map. And they put on the map for reasons that are unique to Troika and have fuck all to do with the rest of the IP: the irreverent comedy, for one. If you actually read the rpg books and the new text games, then you'll notice it's insanely pretentious tryhard emo goth shit that takes its ridiculousness completely seriously.

There's the management being disrespectful of fans in general when using the brand names. Like, if they're weren't low budget text crap the premise for that new hunter game would sound interesting. But I can't stand it because it ripoffs Hunter: The Vigil while giving Vigil fans the middle finger. "Your favorite game IP sucks, you filthy infidels. But we'll totally ripoff the premise for this other game. Fans of the Imbued can eat shit too."

There are elegant ways to reboot IPs with the benefit of hindsight. This isn't one of them.

I do like bits and pieces from across the IPs owned by the shell company named White Wolf, but that's a far cry from liking WoD as an IP. There's too much drama and scandal associated with it for me to feel much positive feelings about it. Also, I've always preferred CoD anyway. It simply didn't have all that irrelevant high-level lore to begin with and thus allowed players to focus on actually playing rather than discussing irrelevant high-level lore. It was far from perfect (it's still emo goth shit that I look back on as pure cringe), but it tried.

I want an IP that knows how ridiculous it is. I want comedy, black comedy, attractive people, irony, elegant simplicity, an optimistic attitude toward life, a sense of fun... basically everything that WoD doesn't have and which Paradox is clearly not interested in. I don't like emo goth shit.

That "Remember the Ocean House?" level was the exact kind of nostalgia retreading I was dreading and I'm glad it's gone.

This is one of the few downsides of Bloodlines existing. You're not allowed to recycle any ideas it used without being accused of retreading nostalgia or being derivative. Now no urban fantasy game can have a level where you visit a pastiche of the Shining, sexy twin sisters, etc.

 

[Cricket McBangle]

What is the chance this game is nearly as good as Bloodlines1 ?

No

 

[Delterius]

When you probably meant to say "if you know you're using WoD IP then you can write a variety of stories within those limits."

No, I meant to say:

There is no vampire, dark fantasy, or urban fantasy story that cannot be told in the world of darkness.

And I'm really sorry that you can't see that. As to everything else, I don't really see why repeat myself for a second time. Especially since you've agreed with me: you just don't like this setting which is, like, your problem man.

 

[Abu Antar]

What is the chance this game is nearly as good as Bloodlines1 ?

 

[Delterius]

I mean I'm still patching the old game, how hard could it be?

too bad hardsuit didn't get to finish their game tho, you'd be patching it for 10 more years ha ha

 

[Cricket McBangle]

I'm sure it wasn't political. My assumption has always been that Hardsuit failed to scale up - to make everything come together instead of being a bunch of detached demo levels (which may have been impressive enough individually).

But I think if it wasn't that, then it might have been a dispute over the basics of the game's design. Hardsuit wanted one kind of popamole, Paradox wanted another.

That's kind of what DuskGolem said. Basically it came down to what Hardsuit was building and what they had planned for the future was something Paradox ended up not wanting and Hardsuit couldn't really make the pivot. He was being vague about it too but he said that as a "fan of Bloodlines", one side was definitely correct or at least more correct than the other. I think he was trying to say Paradox ultimately made the right call on that but again, he was being vague about it.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

When you probably meant to say "if you know you're using WoD IP then you can write a variety of stories within those limits."

No, I meant to say:

There is no vampire, dark fantasy, or urban fantasy story that cannot be told in the world of darkness.

And I'm really sorry that you can't see that.

There are countless stories that cannot be told in that IP because they don't obey the rules or lore. That's how IPs work.

You can't tell a story about vampires who became vampires as a result of drinking from the unholy grail, or became vampires as a result of being possessed by a demon, or are infected with alien nanomachines, or become stronger through sheer age without needing to cannibalize other vampires, or reproduce sexually like those vampires in Blade or First Kill, or the plots of the Vampire Hunter D novels, or whatever other example I could give because that's not how vampires work in the setting.

Your statement cannot be literally true.

As to everything else, I don't really see why repeat myself for a second time. Especially since you've agreed with me: you just don't like this setting which is, like, your problem man.

After all the shit we've seen going down in Hollywood, book publishers, etc... you really cannot understand why I would be frustrated by the current state of affairs regarding urban fantasy video games? Have you never become tired of or frustrated with an IP or genre?

 

[Delterius]

You can't tell a story about vampires who became vampires as a result of drinking from the unholy grail

don't see why not. the tremere became vampires with a true magic ritual

or became vampires as a result of being possessed by a demon

don't see why not. there's a lot of mystery in the history of vampires, demons, demonology, and so on

or are infected with alien nanomachines

don't see why not. just involve pentex or the technocracy or both if you want

or become stronger through sheer age without needing to cannibalize other vampires

what do you think mastering disciplines and gaining attributes mean. the whole setting emphasizes that elders are dangerous not just because of generation, but because they are old, monstrous, and more experienced than you.

there's also you know the whole thing with thinblood alchemy and thinbloods becoming more powerful even without a clan or diablerie. this was a big part of bl2, and a lot of speculation was set around wether we'd diablerize someone to attain clanhood or not.

hell there's speculation since bloodlines 1 about the impossible generation of the fledgeling, have you even played these games?

So not only are your examples unimpressive, there's two other extra layers to this argument.

First is rule 0: the DM interpretes the world. This is something that isn't just true for literally every tabletop rpg, but baked into the logic of WoD itself. There's resources to make ghosts and mages and vampires mesh better with each other, but it is the Storyteller is the one who is creating and interpreting the world. At the Storyteller is the one deciding big important questions whenever the players push the envelope too much. What happens if Cain's Curse collides with True Magic? It's up to the Storyteller.

The second layer of course is the fact that you've betrayed your own obsession. Everyone knows and understands not only rule 0, but that infinite space we have to tell stories in these pre-estabilished settings. It's how RPGs have been made for a long time. Obsidian was even famous for a while in their games which subverted Forgotten Realms and Star Wars a bit. But of course, since you're once again rallying against reality you have to pretend like this setting, unlike any other, is an especially terrible constraint on creativity. It isn't. So how do you do that? How do you prove that WoD is impossible to work with? You simply ask: 'what if I want to tell a Shadowrun story in WoD'. Which is far from a gotcha, see above.

you really cannot understand why I would be frustrated by the current state of affairs regarding urban fantasy video games?

Well, you see, if you want a game where nano fucking machines turn people into vampires you probably not only dislike the setting. Which you do. You probably isn't on the lookout for a Bloodlines 2 either.

Have you never become tired of or frustrated with an IP or genre?

The only argument that you're left with is your tirade against 'factoids that nerds jizz themselves over'. Which does betray a certain misplaced hostility towards things that just don't matter. Maybe you just don't like this setting? I mean, I hate Forgotten Realms and Golarion (moreso the latter) but I still play good games set in them. This entire genre makes use of setpieces from tabletop, and it's created some pretty good storylines in doing so. If it can be done with fucking Forgotten Realms, then WoD of all things is not an impediment to anything.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

You can't tell a story about vampires who became vampires as a result of drinking from the unholy grail

don't see why not. the tremere became vampires with a true magic ritual

or became vampires as a result of being possessed by a demon

don't see why not. there's a lot of mystery in the history of vampires, demons, demonology, and so on

or are infected with alien nanomachines

don't see why not. just involve pentex or the technocracy or both if you want

or become stronger through sheer age without needing to cannibalize other vampires

what do you think mastering disciplines and gaining attributes mean

So not only are your examples unimpressive, there's two other extra layers to this argument.

First is rule 0: the DM interpretes the world. This is something that isn't just true for literally every tabletop rpg, but baked into the logic of WoD itself. There's resources to make ghosts and mages and vampires mesh better with each other, but it is the Storyteller is the one who is creating and interpreting the world. At the Storyteller is the one deciding big important questions whenever the players push the envelope too much. What happens if Cain's Curse collides with True Magic? It's up to the Storyteller.

The second layer of course is the fact that you've betrayed your own obsession. Everyone knows and understands not only rule 0, but that infinite space we have to tell stories in these pre-estabilished settings. It's how RPGs have been made for a long time. Obsidian was even famous for a while in their games which subverted Forgotten Realms and Star Wars a bit. But of course, since you're once again rallying against reality you have to pretend like this setting, unlike any other, is an especially terrible constraint on creativity. It isn't. So how do you do that? How do you prove that WoD is impossible to work with? You simply ask: 'what if I want to tell a Shadowrun story in WoD'. Which is far from a gotcha, see above.

“You can totally tell Shadowrun stories in WoD with enough shoehorning, houseruling, and just plain ignoring the fuck out of canon!”

Sure, you could certainly try to force X pitches into Y IP. But is it really worth doing? Andor didn’t need to be part of Star Wars. It could’ve been a new IP and better off for it. This may be said for the majority of modern franchise entries. Worshiping particular IP monopolies and shoehorning all incoming media pitches into it to piggyback on brand name recognition is everything wrong with media today.

Well, you see, if you want a game where nano fucking machines turn people into vampires you probably not only dislike the setting. Which you do. You probably isn't on the lookout for a Bloodlines 2 either.

Unless Troika comes back and makes it with full creative freedom, there will never be a Bloodlines 2. Hell, Paradox was never even trying to make a spiritual successor. They were always hijacking the brand name for the sake of potential profit because somebody in charge at one point thought it was a good idea.

 

[Delterius]

the tremere became vampires with a true magic ritual

there's a lot of mystery in the history of vampires, demons, demonology, and so on

pentex or the technocracy

what do you think mastering disciplines and gaining attributes mean. the whole setting emphasizes that elders are dangerous not just because of generation, but because they are old, monstrous, and more experienced than you.

literally just a description of a thing that happened in bloodlines

and just plain ignoring the fuck out of canon!

desperation

Unless Troika comes back and makes it with full creative freedom

Again, Bloodlines is amongst the most textbook takes possible on Vampire. And here you are, suggesting nanomachine embrace for a Bloodlines 2. When I asked you if you even played these games, I meant it.

Sure, you could certainly try to force X pitches into Y IP.

The point is twofold. The things you've described are not that subversive of the setting, which is besides how this is the Bloodlines thread. First the game was Vampire played straight, why would the second game refrain from exploring this world and go straight into nanofuckingmachines?

 

[Roguey]

This is one of the few downsides of Bloodlines existing. You're not allowed to recycle any ideas it used without being accused of retreading nostalgia or being derivative. Now no urban fantasy game can have a level where you visit a pastiche of the Shining, sexy twin sisters, etc.

Why make yet another homage to The Shining when you can do something different? It's a game about vampires. It doesn't need a level where you visit a haunted building and read a bunch of lore about what happened there.