World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 - VTMB sequel from The Chinese Room - coming early 2025

[Fedora Master]

Besides, you can kill off most of the non-white characters.

This new cope is so weird. I blame BG3

 

[RagingNomad]

Is Swansong worth it?

I think it's worth a playthrough. It has interesting main characters that are well written. There are choices that affect what happens. Characters can die. The plot is more classic to the Vampire setting unlike Bloodlines. There are mysteries. There is an interesting system of resources and upgrades that also affect gameplay. Only you have to realize that this is not an action game. It is a quest designed for pixel-hunting.

 

[RagingNomad]

Isn’t V5 the shittiest version of the setting? Why be so adamant to faithfully represent it is my question.

V5 is a great system. It has a lot of interesting narrative elements that are incorporated directly into the gameplay. You may not like the modern setting or story events, but otherwise the game is interesting and not inferior to the classics. The disciplines have been sorted and cleaned up. Added a little more balance to abilities. Added resonance as well as types of hunting, making the game more vampiric. Dice throws have been made easier. Battles are more dynamic. Players need to spend less time counting. A lot of things are made more intuitive.

 

[Grunker]

the kind of person who doesn't like lying or duplicity

Bro, do you even VtM?

I played Bloodlines, a game made by role playing gamers who didn't really care all that much about Vampire the Masquerade and just made a regular RPG in the setting.

One of the only reasons the game is worth playing despite its many mechanical failures is its impeccable grasp of atmosphere. The fact that they didn’t give a shit about the trash deep lore of VtM =/= not giving a shit about the setting.

In fact, I’d argue the opposite: what makes VtM work is exactly the fact that Troika captured the essence of VtM without getting bogged down in superfluous details.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

The difference is that it's other people doing those things to you. You're a gofer, not a player.

You can play a straight-shooter in Parliament and never lie or betray anyone (until after they've betrayed you and you're reasonably justified to cut ties with them). Or even just accept that they're using you and come to terms with it anyway. Almost everyone around you is an asshole, but you can point that out to them.

One of the only reasons the game is worth playing despite its many mechanical failures is its impeccable grasp of atmosphere. The fact that they didn’t give a shit about the trash deep lore of VtM =/= not giving a shit about the setting.

In fact, I’d argue the opposite: what makes VtM work is exactly the fact that Troika captured the essence of VtM without getting bogged down in superfluous details.

Bloodlines has more of the "trash deep lore of VtM" than every single other VtM game out right now (who usually just focus on their compartmentalized local issues).
Swansong has nothing about the lore besides SI wanting to kill all vampires, and that's bad if you're a vampire.
Redemption is just about saving Anezka from a big bad Tzimisce, and some Carthage cope.
Very similar story with the IFs and VNs: they're focused on their localized drama.

Meanwhile, Bloodlines mentions and focuses on Gehenna, Jyhad, Caine, Lilith, Antediluvians, all three sects, Society of Leopold, even Kuei Jin. You have Caine in the game for fuck's sake, you can't get more dank with the lore than this.

 

[Grunker]

Meanwhile, Bloodlines mentions and focuses on Gehenna, Jyhad, Caine, Lilith, Antediluvians, all three sects, Society of Leopold, even Kuei Jin. You have Caine in the game for fuck's sake, you can't get more dank with the lore than this.

They don't do any deep diving, Pillars of Eternity-style, into any of these elements. I read the Kuei-Jin books after playing Bloodlines, and it says everything about how succinct Bloodlines is that I realized upon reading them that Bloodlines uses almost nothing about their lore in the game. Bloodlines uses all these cool elements in only the scarcest way necessary for its intruiging mysteries and story beats - it never gets bogged down in unneccesary detail.

So yes, you can get way, waaaaaay more dank with all those elements, and it's to Bloodlines' credit that it never does. It picks and chooses cool elements from the lore without ever making its story beats about that lore itself.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Meanwhile, Bloodlines mentions and focuses on Gehenna, Jyhad, Caine, Lilith, Antediluvians, all three sects, Society of Leopold, even Kuei Jin. You have Caine in the game for fuck's sake, you can't get more dank with the lore than this.

They don't do any deep diving, Pillars of Eternity-style, into any of these elements. I read the Kuei-Jin books after playing Bloodlines, and it says everything about how succinct Bloodlines is that I realized upon reading them that Bloodlines uses almost nothing about their lore in the game. Bloodlines uses all these cool elements in only the scarcest way necessary for its intruiging mysteries and story beats - it never gets bogged down in unneccesary detail.

So yes, you can get way, waaaaaay more dank with all those elements, and its to Bloodlines' credit that it never does. It picks and chooses cool elements from the lore without ever making its story beats about that lore itself.

None of the other VtM games get more dank with it than Bloodlines does.

Edit: I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that Bloodlines is pretty entrenched in the VtM setting, moreso than other VtM games. It's not VtM purism that made Bloodlines good, but it's not VtM purism that made other VtM games bad. Because they have even less VtM stuff than Bloodlines does.

 

[Grunker]

Meanwhile, Bloodlines mentions and focuses on Gehenna, Jyhad, Caine, Lilith, Antediluvians, all three sects, Society of Leopold, even Kuei Jin. You have Caine in the game for fuck's sake, you can't get more dank with the lore than this.

They don't do any deep diving, Pillars of Eternity-style, into any of these elements. I read the Kuei-Jin books after playing Bloodlines, and it says everything about how succinct Bloodlines is that I realized upon reading them that Bloodlines uses almost nothing about their lore in the game. Bloodlines uses all these cool elements in only the scarcest way necessary for its intruiging mysteries and story beats - it never gets bogged down in unneccesary detail.

So yes, you can get way, waaaaaay more dank with all those elements, and its to Bloodlines' credit that it never does. It picks and chooses cool elements from the lore without ever making its story beats about that lore itself.

None of the other VtM games get more dank with it than Bloodlines does.

Edit: I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that Bloodlines is pretty entrenched in the VtM setting, moreso than other VtM games. It's not VtM purism that made Bloodlines good, but it's not VtM purism that made other VtM games bad. Because they have even less VtM stuff than Bloodlines does.

Then don't we agree? My original response to Roguey was to contradict his point that Troika "didn't care". I'm just saying that it does the balancing act perfectly. The antediluvian plot beat is a great demonstration: it's essentially a Macguffin designed to highlight some of the toplevel story themes of VtM (the base level conflict between sabbat and cammarilla, the fact that your are a slave to scary elder forces etc.), but they didn't delve into any details surrounding all powerful elder gods and all that silly nonsense.

They focused on what most players can basically read in any basic VtM manual - but this surface VtM, they handled pretty much perfectly.

 

[Xelocix]

Meanwhile, Bloodlines mentions and focuses on Gehenna, Jyhad, Caine, Lilith, Antediluvians, all three sects, Society of Leopold, even Kuei Jin. You have Caine in the game for fuck's sake, you can't get more dank with the lore than this.

They don't do any deep diving, Pillars of Eternity-style, into any of these elements. I read the Kuei-Jin books after playing Bloodlines, and it says everything about how succinct Bloodlines is that I realized upon reading them that Bloodlines uses almost nothing about their lore in the game. Bloodlines uses all these cool elements in only the scarcest way necessary for its intruiging mysteries and story beats - it never gets bogged down in unneccesary detail.

So yes, you can get way, waaaaaay more dank with all those elements, and its to Bloodlines' credit that it never does. It picks and chooses cool elements from the lore without ever making its story beats about that lore itself.

None of the other VtM games get more dank with it than Bloodlines does.

Edit: I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that Bloodlines is pretty entrenched in the VtM setting, moreso than other VtM games. It's not VtM purism that made Bloodlines good, but it's not VtM purism that made other VtM games bad. Because they have even less VtM stuff than Bloodlines does.

2nd Edit: Thanks for the gold kind stranger!

 

[Roguey]

One of the only reasons the game is worth playing despite its many mechanical failures is its impeccable grasp of atmosphere. The fact that they didn’t give a shit about the trash deep lore of VtM =/= not giving a shit about the setting.

In fact, I’d argue the opposite: what makes VtM work is exactly the fact that Troika captured the essence of VtM without getting bogged down in superfluous details.

I didn't mean that they didn't care about making something faithful, they just weren't dedicated players.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-designer-diary-2/1100-6083943

But wait...I'm a Dungeons & Dragons fan at heart. I had never played the Vampire: The Masquerade tabletop game. I obviously knew what it was; I'd even read the second-edition source book years ago. I was a fan of the genre but had never actually played the game. It looked like it was time to do a little research.

Looking at Vampire the Masquerade games made by other people and the game these D&D nerds made, the divide is clear. Faggy vampire fans are like this and D&D fans who don't mind the occasional delve into other RPGs are like that.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

One of the only reasons the game is worth playing despite its many mechanical failures is its impeccable grasp of atmosphere. The fact that they didn’t give a shit about the trash deep lore of VtM =/= not giving a shit about the setting.

In fact, I’d argue the opposite: what makes VtM work is exactly the fact that Troika captured the essence of VtM without getting bogged down in superfluous details.

I didn't mean that they didn't care about making something faithful, they just weren't dedicated players.

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-designer-diary-2/1100-6083943

But wait...I'm a Dungeons & Dragons fan at heart. I had never played the Vampire: The Masquerade tabletop game. I obviously knew what it was; I'd even read the second-edition source book years ago. I was a fan of the genre but had never actually played the game. It looked like it was time to do a little research.

Looking at Vampire the Masquerade games made by other people and the game these D&D nerds made, the divide is clear. Faggy vampire fans are like this and D&D fans who don't mind the occasional delve into other RPGs are like that.

Oh, please. It's the same type of nerd. Even your own source betrays you.

Luckily for me we had people at Troika who had played the pen-and-paper version of Vampire. We are a game company, after all. This knowledge base was indispensable to my research and came with a full collection of second-edition books to boot.

The only difference is that DnD has a vastly bigger size pool to pick out devs from due to much higher popularity. It's more popular, so most Vampire players also play DnD (and their favorite waifu might be Viconia), meanwhile only a fraction of DnD players play Vampire.

 

[Delterius]

I didn't mean that they didn't care about making something faithful, they just weren't dedicated players.

I think this is ironically missing your own point, as it has nothing to do with how you'd rather not play a vampire.

 

[whydoibother]

We need to define "faithful" here. Faithful to the setting, or faithful to the mechanics? Faithful to the previous video game, or faithful to the tabletop game? Faithful to the values of the previous game/setting, or faithful to the implementation?
Anyways, I expected little and I am reducing my expectations further. At this point I am looking forward to this less than to the next Dragon Age. I'll still play it.

 

[Roguey]

Oh, please. It's the same type of nerd. Even your own source betrays you.

They weren't making high-level decisions.

 

[Storyfag]

Good Lord Caine! I made a snide little joke. No need to get all defensive Roguey. You're still one of my favourite posters.

 

[Harthwain]

Redemption is just about saving Anezka from a big bad Tzimisce, and some Carthage cope.

I disagree. Redemption is a good albeit gradual introduction into the vampire world:

- You learn that the vampires exist as a crusader and uncover that they have a plot to take over the world as you fight them. The gypsy lady explains the origins of the Cainites, mentions Lilith and names the Tzimisce as the evil vampire clan.

- After turned you learn about different vampire clans. At first it's just Brujah, Ventrue and Cappadocians, because these are the ones you interact in the beginning, but ultimately you encounter all of them. You also learn about the Jyhad and the various elements of vampire life (feeding, resting, etc.).

- You read the bits of lore from the fragments of the Book of Nod (plus get the information about Cain and Abel and the heresy that the Curse of Cain is a blessing).

- You do encounter the Society of Leopold, and you learn about the Masquerade at that point (something that wasn't in place in the first half of the game). This is further boosted by Christof's musing about how different the modern world is compared to "his".

- In the modern era you also encounter "new" vampire clans (the Giovanni, who replaced the Cappadocians, for example) and the ones you simply didn't manage to see in Medieval times (Toreador, Malkavian).

- After meeting old friends you learn about the Sabbat and Camarilla (which widens the Masquerade aspect you learned about earlier, at the beginning of the second half of the game). This is particularly interesting, because your old friends are in the Sabbat and they give you a less black-and-white view than you get from something like Bloodlines.

So while you could boil the main plot of Redemption to just "saving Anezka from a big bad Tzimisce", the game offers the player quite an insight into the setting. It is simply a gradual and spaced out process, which helps make it feel more natural, rather than serving the player a big info dump in a giant wall of text.

 

[Storyfag]

- After turned you learn about different vampire clans. At first it's just Brujah, Venture and Cappadocians, because these are the ones you interact in the beginning, but ultimately you encounter all of them.

Except for Ravnos and the still extant in the Middle Ages Salubri. Otherwise, correct to a T.

I should add that Vukodlak rises on the eve of Gehenna, which also does get a mention.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

You're right Harthwain I did downplay some of the lore present in Redemption, I stand corrected.

 

[Skinwalker]

Venture

 

[Wesp5]

So while you could boil the main plot of Redemption to just "saving Anezka from a big bad Tzimisce", the game offers the player quite an insight into the setting. It is simply a gradual and spaced out process, which helps make it feel more natural, rather than serving the player a big info dump in a giant wall of text.

Which is a good way to represent it. Remember the gallery quest in Bloodlines which was used to introduce Cain and Lilith in a similar way...

 

[The President]

I thought the original bloodlines was a great intro to the series. Though I am biased as it was quite literally my introduction to the series. It included most aspects of the series in some way, with just enough details to get you interested but not so many that it bogs you down and gets cheesy. For example I do recall Betram telling you that if you’re a 4th or 5th generation methuselah your blood is pretty potent. but you never actually meet any in the game yet you get the idea of how powerful these individuals would be.

 

[santino27]

So while you could boil the main plot of Redemption to just "saving Anezka from a big bad Tzimisce", the game offers the player quite an insight into the setting. It is simply a gradual and spaced out process, which helps make it feel more natural, rather than serving the player a big info dump in a giant wall of text.

Which is a good way to represent it. Remember the gallery quest in Bloodlines which was used to introduce Cain and Lilith in a similar way...

Agreed. Weaving the lore in organically is almost always better than an infodump. Basic lesson that fiction writers had to learn ages ago which some game devs still struggle with.

(Edit: To be fair, a lot of fiction writers suck at it too, because not everyone is good at their job.)

 

[J1M]

If this has a female-only protagonist, it guarantees that I will never play this game. In a way, it feels like a liberation.

Judging but what the released and said, it seems to be much worse.
The game with have an androgynous protagonist and they will allow you to choose the protagonist gender (aka in modern terms the pronouns)

This is untrue. The devs refer to the female Phyrre as "female Phyrre", which implies there will be a "male Phyrre". They have also released concept art for every Clan they will allow us to play, and some of these are definitely male.

Maybe. Or maybe the options are female and trans female.

 

[J1M]

Isn’t V5 the shittiest version of the setting? Why be so adamant to faithfully represent it is my question.

The people making that statement don't know the differences. Newest equals best. Probably dream of a game driving a few book sales.

Since they own the IP rather than license it, the publisher can use any version they want. Or print a new version faithful to the game implementation if it is popular, similar to the BG3-inspired house rules going around for D&D.

 

[Harthwain]

Since they own the IP rather than license it, the publisher can use any version they want.

Yeah, but the standard practice is to promote the newest version, because that's the one you want to sell.