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Community VtmB patch controversy quelled and patch reboot

galsiah

Erudite
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,613
Location
Montreal
lefthandblack said:
You can't compare modding a game to actual programming where you are starting from scratch, they are apples and oranges.
You can in some cases. A very complex script is effectively its own little "from scratch" program - just on top of a game. Most scripts might be quite simple, and patch fixes to scripts might usually be very simple, but there's no clear distinction which places "actual programming" as something worthy of copyright, and scripting not.

In the model example I gave, there is only one way to get the model into the game.
Sure. I guess the real problem here is the lack of support for a combination of changes to the same file. You can't simply release your path name change alone for people using a patch affecting the same file - since one would over-write the other. That means that either everyone needs to change the path manually, or you're forced to merge both the patch changes and yours into one mod.

That's a bugger, but it doesn't affect the copyright issues. Assuming Wesp had added a huge number of complex changes to a certain script, you'd be in clear violation of copyright by copying+changing+re-releasing it. The fact that it's the only reasonable solution you have, and the only way you can allow users to use both changes at once, does not make it legal (it does mean modders refusing such combination are that much more annoying, of course).

As it happens, individual changes Wesp has made might be quite simple/obvious/the only possible fix. If anything, that's what makes it ok to copy them. That he's using Troika's commands as a base doesn't make a difference - such base commands could be used either for simple changes, or to radically alter the game in ingenious ways. If he'd done the latter, he'd have every right to object to your copying it.

Again, the fact that using another modder's script as a base might be the only reasonable way to let users use both changes, doesn't change the lagality of the situation. It simply means that there's no legal/easy way to allow people to use your changes. You can argue that modders who refuse permission for changes under these circumstances are arseholes. You can't argue that it's ok to copy+redistribute their work without permission on this basis - unless the changes they made were obvious/trivial.



There are only so many ways to say "the sky is blue", just as you cannot copyright the phrase "the sky is blue" you cannot copyright a script using a simplified system which is hard coded into the games exe/dev tools in which there may only be one or two ways to say "the sky is blue".
You can't reasonably claim copyright on a single line of a script. You can reasonably claim copyright over a non-trivial 200 line script you write yourself. The issue is the complexity/originality/non-triviality of the script (/alterations) - not whether they have a direct/indirect effect on the game.

I am in complete agreement that they should have honored what they told Wesp5 they would do. I'm just pointing out that it's not theft.
With individual very simple/obvious changes, it probably isn't. Wesp can claim that he's worked hard to put all the changes together, but not really that any individual aspect of those changes is an original work. Copying all his changes at once is rather more suspect though.

If I were to create a new model for " Werewolf Blood", and paste the path to the model into this script, no one could accuse me of stealing from Wesp5 even though I pulled the script out of his zip. The reason for this is that Wesp5 did not create the flags like "is_wieldable" etc. Troika did.
Again, no - the reason (if any) is that the script is an obvious/trivial change from a Troika script, so can't be considered Wesp's original work. If his alterations were much more complex/original, then it wouldn't matter that they used Troika's commands/functions as component parts - the result would still be his original work, which you couldn't alter+reproduce without his permission (even if it were the only reasonable way to make a change).
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
Joined
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Messages
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I'd like to here from wesp is he felt slighted by the news post, agreed with the usage of terms and verbage, and if he felt like if it was picking sides. I'd also like to here from others what they felt in regards to that question when they read it. Maybe role-player did not intend for it to include those elements in his news post, and he is at least bi-lingual (and I can barely express myself correctly in my native tongue), and I can't really go on about intent can be construde in different ways and say I actually know what his intent is or was or if it is different than what he claims it to be, but we can at least see how people percieved his post (slighting/taking sides, or no).

I know role-player hates me now, but I have nothing but love in my heart to share with everyone. I love you role-player, and this might be the catalyst that turns a boy into a man. Jack Nicholson said in one of his movies that a woman is a man without reason or accountablility. This is your time to shine role-player, show us you are reasonable and responsible, my sunflower.
 

Tessera

Novice
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Messages
33
Location
Long Island, USA
almondblight said:
Tessera said:
I don't have any patience with people who look all over the place for excuses to start infantile flame wars. If their lives are that boring...

Then maybe they'll get into elf porn?

Then maybe they'll fight to be the "one true god" of a goddamn videogame?

Then maybe they'll get into elf porn?

Let's work on this repression issue together, Sparky...

What -- if anything -- does my hobby of producing nude re-skins have to do with the subject of this thread..? This thread has to do with our True VTMB Patch. It is not about elves, nor is it about digital tits and ass. There are other, far more appropriate threads for those issues... and if you'd like to tell me all about your repression and inhibitions about nudity and sexuality over there, then I'll be all-ears. In the meantime, I'll close out that issue by stating the obvious: it is the people who have poor sex lives (or no sex lives at all) who usually bark the loudest against any depictions of nudity and sexuality in this world. Those of us who have active and healthy sex lives will usually treat this subject as what it is: an enjoyable distraction and a celebration of human female beauty -- and absolutely nothing more. If you still can;t see my point, then be sure to steer clear of any art museums... they're filled with nude paintings and sculptures. We certainly wouldn't want you to trip out from "titty overload" and suffer from some sort of breakdown in there. That would be awful.

Back to the subject at hand...

I'm appreciative to RolePlayer, for his efforts to spread the word about our True VTMB Patch and its progress. We are sensitive to the controversy that has surrounded it lately. We are currently working to cut that controversy off at the knees, in future releases. In the meantime, the 4.03AT patch works great, it does what it says it does and its popularity has recently skyrocketed. In the past couple of weeks, in fact, the activity on my own site -- where our patch is hosted -- has more than tripled. I can only assume that this is due to the fact that several large, commercial gaming sites have finally taken notice of what we have produced. Nothing but good can come out of all the attention that this patch has raised -- because no matter what opinions people may or may not have about the True VTMB Patch, one inescapable fact remains:

The players now have a choice, now that an increasing number of those players are becoming aware of our work. Choices are always a good thing, especially when this game has been dominated for over two years by some very badly-conceived mods. Now that everyone has this new choice, the community as a whole will benefit. Since that is the ONLY thing that Acrimonious and myself have ever truly cared about, then we're happy little campers and I'm quite sure that we will continue to feel that way.


Thanks for the amusing read,

- Tessera -
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,706
Location
Lisboa, Portugal
mister lamat said:
my reading comprehension is fine, it's when you start delving into the minutia and pedantry that i utterly lose any meaning of what you're trying to say. (...)asking what point the scales tip between a 'patch' and a 'mod'... dude, go watch some fucking paint dry. it's far more interesting.

Funny, considering it was Roqua who couldn't let go of the issue to the point where he even went out to quote dictionary.com to present minutae and definitions. It was him who kept basking in the semantical nonsense of patches and mods being the same thing because both modify games only to, after making us suffer through the same spiel across scores of pages, claim he didn't care about said definitions at all.


you've been harping on the same point for pages and pages across two threads about something so utterly inane it's comical.

Hypocrite. If you have a problem with me talking about whatever then don't instigate only to later cry wolf. Drop it and move on.


have a look at dhurin's post on rpgwatch. learn something.

We're not RPG Watch. Deal with it.
 

lefthandblack

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
1,287
Location
Domestic Terrorist HQ
galsiah said:
As it happens, individual changes Wesp has made might be quite simple/obvious/the only possible fix. If anything, that's what makes it ok to copy them.
.
My understanding of the issue when I got into the debate was that Wesp5's patch/mod was exactly that, a compilation of small changes to numerous Troika files.
He did point out that it also included some writing and art assets though, so in my
opinion (assuming that they can't mend fences) the proper course of action would
be to compile just the fixes (minor changes) and release that. Any artwork or writing
that they wanted to replace should be their own original work.

I think that we are basically on the same page, you are correct in regards to substantially
complex systems that he may or may not have scripted as well as the art/writing.

I would also like to point out that any animosity on my part was not directed at Wesp5
personally, as I think that he is the more right of the parties involved.
Any animosity I may have expressed comes more from past experience with similar
issues. This prompted me to go for my guns when the concept of theft was brought into the argument.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
5,706
Location
Lisboa, Portugal
Roqua said:
Maybe role-player did not intend for it to include those elements in his news post

When someone says it's always nice to see fan communities support developers, there's no derision: it's an appreciation of the work said communities have released.

When someone says that there is now available a patch that tries to stick to fixing bugs as an alternative to a patch that does more than fix bugs, there is no slight: it's pointing out people now can choose between something that only deals with bugs and something that revises the gameplay according to the community's tastes.

When someone points out the release of a true patch, that is not picking sides: that is how, for all intents and purposes, the patch is distributed and called by the author. Take it up to the person who came up with the name instead of lambasting people who report things how they are. If the patch name bothers you, go request Acrimonious to change it's name to "Politically Correct Suite of Technical Modifications Only for Players of All Races and Colours". And if he renames the patch accordingly, the Codex will cover it under it's full name.

That's all there is to say.

If Wesp feels slighted he can take it up to me on his own and in his own time.
 

mister lamat

Scholar
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
570
Hypocrite. If you have a problem with me talking about whatever then don't instigate only to later cry wolf. Drop it and move on.

instigate? please, that was nothing more than a subtle invocation of the drama llama... which as you can see has turned out quite well. the issue at hand is how open source material is dealt with, what are the expectations and the standards. the only time i've ever brought up names was in regards to the use of the word 'true' in regards to something stolen from it's author and then said author being bashed by the people who used it. that shit does not fly in the rest of the open source community, people who do so are derided and ostracized as they should be. sorry sweetheart, but even with the righteously high levels of angst and asshattery, the same rules should apply here.

it's not about 'taking sides' or 'being fair', it's a basic value that allows the whole idea of open source to continue on as it does. you didn't do your research or at least didn't care about what's been going on with all this nonsense and now you're trying to shovel your way out. a little common sense would have been appropriate, but in all fairness, the drama has been just lovely.

We're not RPG Watch. Deal with it.

good god that's fucking emo. you seethe with angst!
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
5,706
Location
Lisboa, Portugal
mister lamat said:
you didn't do your research or at least didn't care about what's been going on with all this nonsense and now you're trying to shovel your way out.

You're so full of bullshit it's not even funny.

You can spare me the false indignation regarding any expectations of the "open source community" since you could care less about them, given most of the posts you've been making regarding this subject matter have been just about taking the piss on everything and everyone. There's no defiant struggle against the tyranic masses who condone stolen code on your part, only trolling. DarkUndergarments and Roofle-Player? Christ. We know you ain't exactly Shakespeare, but trying to elevate trolling as something righteous is beyond imbecilic.

Even if that wasn't enough, you keep bleating on about stolen code when the very news item that spawned this item clearly states that future patches will no longer be partially based on Wesp's work but solely on Acrimonious' fixes. This means you have absolutely no reason to bitch about at all yet keep doing so.

What was that about having good reading comprehension?

Take Roqua's dick out of your mouth and grow your own.
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
Joined
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Location
YES!
Any work of acrosomething will be based off of wesp and the original guys work. Why would he try to find all the bugs himself when he has a perfect walkthrough with the unofficial patch. How much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears will that save him?

Its not just Mister Lamat that sees the issue you keep trying to cloud with the blame game, its virtually everyone normal. I'm really not trying to give you a hard time, but you know you're just being a stuborn prick. Look how reasonable and nice I've been, and you still keep up with your hostility out of some sort of dork pride. Its okay to admit you are wrong, we'll still respect you in the morning. Reason and accountability seperates men from woman. You're almost there, there is a little stuble of penis between your legs that wants to blossom into a beautiful cock and balls. Or, regress into a clit surrounded buy a vulva and gapping stink hole. It's time to buck up, son.
 

Diogo Ribeiro

Erudite
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
5,706
Location
Lisboa, Portugal
Roqua said:
Any work of acrosomething will be based off of wesp and the original guys work. Why would he try to find all the bugs himself when he has a perfect walkthrough with the unofficial patch. How much time, effort, blood, sweat, and tears will that save him?

Its not just Mister Lamat that sees the issue you keep trying to cloud with the blame game, its virtually everyone normal. I'm really not trying to give you a hard time, but you know you're just being a stuborn prick. Look how reasonable and nice I've been, and you still keep up with your hostility out of some sort of dork pride. Its okay to admit you are wrong, we'll still respect you in the morning. Reason and accountability seperates men from woman. You're almost there, there is a little stuble of penis between your legs that wants to blossom into a beautiful cock and balls. Or, regress into a click surrounded buy a vulva and gapping stink hole. It's time to buck up, son.

Sorry, not enough motherfucker, cocksucker and thick mongoloid skull to reply. Try to keep up, will you?
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
Joined
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Messages
4,130
Location
YES!
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Is that enough?
 

Roqua

Prospernaut
Dumbfuck Repressed Homosexual In My Safe Space
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RGE

Liturgist
Joined
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Messages
773
Location
Karlstad, Sweden
Wesp5 said:
RGE said:
I think that Seduction feat 3 is quite low, but on the other hand it's at the beginning of the game, and given that the Seduction skill isn't used for anything else, and the Appearance ability is also not used for anything else, a non-seducer is probably going to have only Appearance 1, which is still two points away from Jeanette's demands. So it's a toss-up as far as I'm concerned.

So do you think this would be a nice compromise solution only allowing players to see and use that option who build their character for high Seduction in the first place?
You mean that the current (as of v3.3) setup with pre-struggle scene sex with Jeanette requiring Seduction feat 3 would be a compromise? I could live with it. I don't think that it matters all that much when/if you have sex with Jeanette. And 3 does seem high enough to me, particularly since the sex doesn't give any benefits.

Wesp5 said:
RGE said:
And while I could see how Jeanette would be slutty enough to sleep with the PC on their first 'date', perhaps you could also see how during the struggle-scene Therese would probably not listen to someone whom Jeanette just slept with? And she gets to know everything about what Jeanette has done, doesn't she?

Now that would be a valid argument to remove the whole thing but I don't think Therese would care that much. After all she says the following the next time you meet her: "I should've expected that you'd succumb to Jeanette's influence like all the others. But how dare you!" With the latter she means the museum so the former fits very well to anything you did before ;).
I guess you could see it that way too. But there's "influence" and then there's doing filthy, dirty things with a certain body, which she may (deep down) know is her own. I also like the fact that you'd have to pick sides in order to 'enjoy the forbidden fruit'. Choices and consequences and rewards. You want the seXXor or the extra XP? Make your choice! :twisted: ("But I want both! Well, you can't have ... Oh, you're a modder? Ok. Have both then ... :cry:")

Roqua said:
I'd like to here from wesp is he felt slighted by the news post, agreed with the usage of terms and verbage, and if he felt like if it was picking sides. I'd also like to here from others what they felt in regards to that question when they read it.
You mean how Role-Player came off in his newsposts? Well, I too got the impression that he was cybering Tessera (wearing whatever skin). But I don't begrudge a man his jollies, so I don't care. I've got more interesting things to do, such as influencing future Unofficial Patches with my rational discourse. :)
 

Tessera

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Roqua said:
Any work of acrosomething will be based off of wesp and the original guys work.

Time for another reality check:

Do you guys actually think that Wesp wrote all of those scripts by himself..? That he sat down with a clean page in Notepad and then began writing out entirely new scripts for VTMB on his own..?

No, although Wesp seems to have no troubles in letting you continue to think that way.

Wesp modified existing scripts written by others. Wanna know who..? They were written by Troika Games. Not by Wesp, not by Dan Upright before him and not by Acrimonious. Ninety--nine percent of everything found within those scripts was written by Troika.

What scripters like Upright, Wesp and Acrimonious do is to scan through those scripts, searching for improper snippets of Boolean code. When they find one, they juggle the numbers until that section of the script flows properly. Then, they move on to the next major section and repeat the process of making small changes to various integers, dialogue typos and so forth.

Accusations have been flying back and forth about supposed "plagiarism." The fact is that absolutely every single modder and scripter involved in this situation is already guilty of plagiarism: they all took it upon themselves to modify copyrighted content, created by Troika and owned by ActiVision. None of these scripters obtained any prior permission from the copyright holders before they made (and then publically distributed) their modifications. Has this fact not occurred to anyone else..?

The only things that prevent ActiVision from filing an infringement suit over these matters are simple: for one, no one is making a profit from these changes. They're being created and distributed free-of-charge. Also, by improving ActiVision's broken game, we are probably helping to boost the sales of that game -- even if only by a small amount. They're not going to sue people who are helping them to make money... especially not when those scripters are simply doing all of this work as a labor of love.

There have also been issues raised regarding who does what on our end (tessmage.com) of things. I have never, ever been guilty of trying to claim credit for things that I have not done. In the case of this patch, I am not a poseur. As a matter of fact, you can read the following thread, if you doubt my sincerity in this matter:

http://www.tessmage.com/forum/index.php ... 288.0.html

Note the date of the OP in that thread and you will see that I have been highly conscious of who is the most responsible, for quite some time.

The name of our patch has been questioned. Let me clarify: I chose the name -- not Acrimonious. I decided to call our release the "True VTMB Patch" for a very good reason: because it seeks to simply PATCH BUGS, not modify the gameplay or change any of the items and quests. Wesp's mods, on the other hand, can not in all good conscience be termed "patches," because his work makes far, far too many arbitrary changes to aspects of VTMB that were NOT broken. Wesp decided to change those aspects anyway -- for his own, highly subjective reasons. By doing so, Wesp has done the community a disservice and that is exactly why we originally sought to right those wrongs. I wanted the name of our patch to make it clear to the players that this was not just another frivolous and improper collection of gameplay mods and ez-mode weapons upgrades. It is what it says it is: a true patch -- not a mod.

Our next patch will be 100% created by us -- and by us alone. It will not take any of Wesp's work into account, nor will we rely on the prior bug fixes created by Dan Upright that Wesp himself copied into his own mods. We already know what the bugs are in VTMB -- we should, since we've played the game for as long as Wesp or anyone else has. We'll fix them ourselves, thus cutting all ties to anyone else's prior works. Hopefully, this decision will put an end to any controversy once and for all... because we will have produced a stand-alone work that Wesp will have had absolutely nothng whatsoever to do with.

As for any "bias" shown by GameBanshee or anyone else against Wesp..? Well, it hardly surprises me, although we had no idea ahead of time that GameBanshee was going to feature our patch on their site. If any bias is being shown, then it's because of exactly what I have been trying to point out for months: that Wesp has been irresponsible in what he has been doing and naturally, many members of the VTMB community are annoyed by that irresponsible approach. In fact, they've been annoyed for YEARS. Is it any wonder that they've been downloading our True Patch like hotcakes lately..? Who can blame them for being biased..?

In the final analysis, it was Wesp's call. He has no one to blame but himself. Please try to keep that in mind.


- Tessera -
 

Wesp5

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Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,951
Zomg said:
Hey, Wesp, can you jigger your patch so that the idle animation for the sniper rifle where you fiddle with the scope dial doesn't repeat constantly? It's like the main character has OCD in the current version.

Model animations are one big thing that can't be changed right now but I already asked my model specialist if at least the rate could be changed. But it may be that there is no other idle animation than this one at all, which combined with the hand moving through the weapon may have been the reason why it was cut from the game in the first place, before Dan and I restored it.
 

Elwro

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Joined
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Messages
11,751
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
Tessera said:
I don't have any patience with people who look all over the place for excuses to start infantile flame wars. If their lives are that boring, then I have nothing but a mixture of amusement and pity towards them. On the proverbial internet food chain, I'm so far above them and their kind that most of what they say just bounces off of my very thick hide... just as a mosquito would.
:shock:

icon_salut.gif


That's why I generally just walk away from them these days. I have bigger fish to fry.
A nude mod for Stalker?

For the record, Acrimonious does the Python scripting for our patches. I am the person that he consults before making any questionable changes. I'm also the creative consultant, the play tester, the continuity tester, the writer (when there needs to be repairs to the dialogues), the one who fought to get our patches made in the first place
Now that's just pathetic. Why does this Acrimonious guy, who has some actual skills, team up with such a person?
 

Wesp5

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Messages
1,951
RGE said:
You mean that the current (as of v3.3) setup with pre-struggle scene sex with Jeanette requiring Seduction feat 3 would be a compromise? I could live with it.

That's what I wanted to know.

I also like the fact that you'd have to pick sides in order to 'enjoy the forbidden fruit'. Choices and consequences and rewards.

I agree with you but in my experience the likelihood to save Jeanette was much worse than to save Therese so most people would never have had the chance to see that scene. That was the main reason I included it in the first place.

Roqua said:
I'd like to hear from wesp is he felt slighted by the news post, agreed with the usage of terms and verbage, and if he felt like if it was picking sides. I'd also like to hear from others what they felt in regards to that question when they read it.
You mean how Role-Player came off in his newsposts? Well, I too got the impression that he was cybering Tessera (wearing whatever skin).

Well, of course I don't like the postings of people supporting Tessera or his choice of name or his way of using other peoples stuff without giving proper credits. But then I also don't like people to fight over it here and get insulting. Instead please help me to make my patch better regarding any issues you have or help Acrimoniuous and myself to get together again.

I've got more interesting things to do, such as influencing future Unofficial Patches with my rational discourse. :)

Yeah, and that is the right way to go! Just by changing the condition on the Jeanette thing most people won't notice the change and won't be angered by it. Any other issues up to the front! It rather annoys me that people badmouth my changes but when I bring up concrete examples of why I did something they fall silent...
 

Wesp5

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Messages
1,951
Tessera said:
The name of our patch has been questioned. Let me clarify: I chose the name -- not Acrimonious. I decided to call our release the "True VTMB Patch" for a very good reason: because it seeks to simply PATCH BUGS, not modify the gameplay or change any of the items and quests.

Still "true" does in no way imply "bug-fixes-only" which would be a better name, especially as Troika modified gameplay, items and quests in their own patches as well, which has been shown repeatedly. So "true" does only work when knowing how Tessera personally, and contrary to Troika I must say, defines the term "patch", and because people can't know this, the impression is given that other patches are "false". Which of course is exactly what he believes.

Hopefully, this decision will put an end to any controversy once and for all... because we will have produced a stand-alone work that Wesp will have had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with.

Well, I'm already advisor to Acrimonious on his patch so I doubt you will have gotten rid of me completely ;)!

As for any "bias" shown by GameBanshee or anyone else against Wesp..? Well, it hardly surprises me, although we had no idea ahead of time that GameBanshee was going to feature our patch on their site.

Oh, speaking of bias shown by GameBanshee. Here is the answer of owner Buck Satan himself to me posted on their forums regarding Tessera's latest patch newsitem:

If Tessera and Acrimonious cannot publish newsworthy information without including personal attacks toward you (or anyone else), then we will no longer cover their announcements here on GameBanshee.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Messages
28,550
The irony of this topic becomes more prevalent with every additional page.

Wesp5 said:
But as Roqua recognized already, which quests are really broken and how were they intended to work in the first place?
For starters, don't even try and play the intention guessing game. Any computer game goes through hundreds of ideas before any end result is settled on. Often things get cut or changed at the last minute and so you get "missing dialogue" and extra, unfinished character models. If you want to do a basic patch (which is all I want), take the final released product as Troika's "intention" and ignore whatever else you find in some hidden file somewhere.

Wesp5 said:
If you get new dialogue because there was a bug in the text should it be restored or not?
Because of a "bug"? Yes, it should be. All I want is very, very, simple, basic fixes. The blatantly obvious stuff. Like, as I said, that camera quest where you place the cameras and don't get seen yet still fail because the quest thinks you did. The stuff like mis-named variables. The bits of dialogue that weren't included because the loop was missed and pointed somewhere else.

However, if it involves you "creating" anything in any way, shape or form, you don't do it. If that "missing" dialogue you found involves you having to write or re-write lines of dialogue, nope. You've gone beyond a basic patch. If that broken item involves you having to add it into a map and then re-balance everything around it. Nope. You're creating new content now. That's not a "basic patch".

Wesp5 said:
Firing several shots without reloading using a scope mode with a gun whose model shows no scope and only one bullet reloading, is that fixing a bug or modding?
What I find interesting is how you assume the art is always correct. ;) As you no doubt found out, art is a time consuming thing to change compared to changing a text file. My guess is the text file is what Troika wanted because in their rush, it was easier to do that and leave it at that, than to go and change the art as well. That said, both of these I'd see as bugs as the item is not working as one would reasonably expect.

Wesp5 said:
Changing the name of the Glock to Glock like one can actually read on the model, is this a bug or modding?
See now that, I take issue with. You looked at all the names of all the weapons in Bloodlines and you saw a bunch of fake, made up names that were created to avoid licensing issues. "Colt Anaconda", "McLusky .50 Caliber" and the "Brokk 17C". All of those are based on real weapons yet they don't use their real names (.44 Magnum, Desert Eagle and Glock respectively). We only have one weapon that uses a real name and that's the Steyr Aug, which seems the odd one out. Again, you take the art as gospel, ignoring the consistency that was achieved with 90% of the weapons having fake names and so re-name the Brokk to a Glock because, gosh darned it, it is one. Well, no duh. I'd take it as Troika's intention to call it a Brokk because that's what they called it. If it says "Glock" on the art and that upsets you, then change the art and keep the weapon's name consistent with the rest. But don't change the kickback or how much damage it does.

Wesp5 said:
Where is the borderline?
See, this is the thing. Like those artifacts. You found a model for an unimplemented bit of whatever. You added it in. As you said, where do you add it? Then what happens when you add it? How does it affect the game, what happens to balance? Suddenly you're re-balancing the whole thing. That's not what I want. I can't speak for anyone else here but that's just not what I'm after.

For this basic patch which people seem to want, you should ignore anything that involves you re-balancing anything. If you find some hidden piece of artwork or options like histories that are not present in-game, it doesn't mean it needs to be added in. Is it a "bug", given it's not even in the game in a working condition? Nope. And if it's not a bug, it doesn't need to be patched.

For the basic patch, just patch the shit that is in the game and leave the rest alone. Correct your variable names. Fix the typos. Make the quest work like how anyone with a brain would expect it to work given the dialogue available. Don't start adding in extra models and re-balancing things just because you found some cool piece of unused whatever lurking behind the scenes. Leave that to Fan Made Unofficial Super Dupah Extra Model Renamed Weapons Nerfed Flamethrower Patch Mod Number 238.

Case in point: That change you made that allowed you to sleep with Jeanette regardless of story and then regardless of whether you said you'd accept her quest or not. Where did that come from? Was that you looking through the script, finding a mis-named variable and correcting it? Or was that someone on an internet forum posting "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if..." One of those is a bug. The other isn't. For a "basic" patch, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out which one is which. Again, I don't mind that you've added in all this extra stuff that you've found and released that as a patch / mod / whatever, it's just that all I still want is just a "basic patch" that doesn't start adding in things Troika left out or that fans think would be cool.

Tessera said:
hoochimama said:
If Acrimonious is the programmer then what does Tessera do? PR and drama?

I don't have any patience with people who look all over the place for excuses to start infantile flame wars. If their lives are that boring, then I have nothing but a mixture of amusement and pity towards them. On the proverbial internet food chain, I'm so far above them and their kind that most of what they say just bounces off of my very thick hide... just as a mosquito would. They just talk a lot. I actually DO SOMETHING and I have been for years. The next time anyone gets into it with one of these clowns, just try this: say to them "Those are interesting criticisms. Let's see your website and what you've actually done with it. Show us your contributions to the gaming community." They usually shut up immediately, or else trip over their tongues making alternate excuses for their own behavior. The stupider ones will simply go right back to attacking and pretend that they didn't even hear you. It never fails... because none of them have ever done a single thing at all -- except bitch. They'll whine about "drama," by posting five straight pages of -- you guessed it -- DRAMA. That's why I generally just walk away from them these days. I have bigger fish to fry.

For the record, Acrimonious does the Python scripting for our patches. I am the person that he consults before making any questionable changes. I'm also the creative consultant, the play tester, the continuity tester, the writer (when there needs to be repairs to the dialogues), the one who fought to get our patches made in the first place and of course, I pay out of my own pocket to promote and host our patches on my own, non-profit website.

Both of us have important jobs, obviously.
Get the fuck off my internets.
 

Elwro

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Messages
11,751
Location
Krakow, Poland
Divinity: Original Sin Wasteland 2
What? People still play it, it's a good game worth a replay once in a while. Also, they wouldn't make patches if no one downloaded them, I suppose.
 

Wesp5

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Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,951
DarkUnderlord said:
For starters, don't even try and play the intention guessing game.

Sorry, but very often you are forced to guess how a broken thing was supposed to work of if it even was broken in the first place.

Like, as I said, that camera quest where you place the cameras and don't get seen yet still fail because the quest thinks you did.

Okay, I did that. But I also moved one of the cameras into the kitchen, because this is where Imalia says it should be placed. Was that too much already? I also gave a warning that you failed the quest the moment you left instead of becoming aware of it after two level loads. Should I have left that out or was I fixing bad game design there?

The bits of dialogue that weren't included because the loop was missed and pointed somewhere else.

Even in that case, how should I know if that was not intended because Troika thought less speech would streamline the game? It's guesswork most of the time.

You've gone beyond a basic patch. If that broken item involves you having to add it into a map and then re-balance everything around it. Nope. You're creating new content now. That's not a "basic patch".

Okay, I understand that you are a purist who likes to have such "basic patches", but Troika themselves did more than those, so did Dan and so do I. Did you complain that Troika changed too many things in their TOEE patches? Did you complain that they made a quest easier to get in their own official 1.2 patch?

What I find interesting is how you assume the art is always correct. ;) As you no doubt found out, art is a time consuming thing to change compared to changing a text file.

Yes, and that is the reason I prefer to change a text file to an art file ;). In the case of the weapons though most of the item files were named like their real world version as well so it was text and model together against a name that we all know was only changed for licensing reasons. Anyway, what's so bad about having the real names back?

But don't change the kickback or how much damage it does.

Now that a different issue and I'm aware that this is more than "basic" but again it's the same stuff that Troika did in their own patches and the changes were more on the cosmetic side that affecting the gameplay. BTW, I just became of a issue there that would need to be changed in the next patch ;).

Wesp5 said:
Where is the borderline?
How does it affect the game, what happens to balance? Suddenly you're re-balancing the whole thing. That's not what I want. I can't speak for anyone else here but that's just not what I'm after.

I understand your point of view but still I think you are exaggerating. None of the restored items or weapons are powerful enough to un-balance anything.

Case in point: That change you made that allowed you to sleep with Jeanette regardless of story and then regardless of whether you said you'd accept her quest or not. Where did that come from?

That one came from reading about it somewhere and noticing that the chances to get to that point were minimal in the original game. Also you actually need to accept her quest and you only get that chance with a high Seduction feat at exactly one special point. Sometimes the short descriptions in the readme are not accurate enough.
 

Hazelnut

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Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
UK
Tessera said:
hoochimama said:
If Acrimonious is the programmer then what does Tessera do? PR and drama?

I don't have any patience with people who look all over the place for excuses to start infantile flame wars. If their lives are that boring, then I have nothing but a mixture of amusement and pity towards them. On the proverbial internet food chain, I'm so far above them and their kind that most of what they say just bounces off of my very thick hide... just as a mosquito would. They just talk a lot. I actually DO SOMETHING and I have been for years. The next time anyone gets into it with one of these clowns, just try this: say to them "Those are interesting criticisms. Let's see your website and what you've actually done with it. Show us your contributions to the gaming community." They usually shut up immediately, or else trip over their tongues making alternate excuses for their own behavior. The stupider ones will simply go right back to attacking and pretend that they didn't even hear you. It never fails... because none of them have ever done a single thing at all -- except bitch. They'll whine about "drama," by posting five straight pages of -- you guessed it -- DRAMA. That's why I generally just walk away from them these days. I have bigger fish to fry.

For the record, Acrimonious does the Python scripting for our patches. I am the person that he consults before making any questionable changes. I'm also the creative consultant, the play tester, the continuity tester, the writer (when there needs to be repairs to the dialogues), the one who fought to get our patches made in the first place and of course, I pay out of my own pocket to promote and host our patches on my own, non-profit website.

Both of us have important jobs, obviously.

Hahahahahaha! Are you for real? It's almost unbelievable that you even wrote "creative consultant" in connection with a fan made patch. You're a delusional loon with a seriously overblown sense of your own importance. (and maturity for that matter. Oh that's right, I must be a prude if I think your website is immature in any way - yep that's it)

Oh, and before you start any half assed reply, I have worked on modding and patching games more than once, when I've had the time and enthusiasm for something, and I absolutely abhor internet drama and the ensuing bollocks.
 

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