Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[ERYFKRAD]

that is why the space marines followed his Codex religiously.

Even that varies from chapter to chapter though. Even the best Ultramarine ever saw it only as a guideline than as the apotheosis of military doctrine.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Somehow i expect it to be a bit more interesting than that.

 

[Kalarion]

Graham McNeill

I warned you and warned you and warned you and warned you. Why wouldn't you listen?!

There's a split in the lore community (both authors and consumers) between the two views. Graham McNeill was certainly the poster-boy for the teeth-grinding "the setting is an opportunity to give moronic social commentary" crowd. Dan Abnett has started doing it since around the time he published Warmaster or so (he seems to have a huge stick up his ass about taking modern-day feminism seriously for some reason). But for basically all of Abnett's published Warhammer 40K work minus half a dozen books or so, he was firmly on the "take the setting seriously in its own context" side of the fence.

I'm curious. Why do you keep complaining about Graham McNeill? We've told you about him several times, and I know I at least have recommended other authors who take a different tack (and are more fun to read, for that matter). Was it just too much bother to pick another author or something?

In other news, I finished reading Warhawk a couple weeks ago. It was... meh. Chris Wraight is a competent writer, so it wasn't painful to read or anything. But I got the impression he was just phoning the whole book in. He didn't seem very enthusiastic about any of the POVs, Jaghatai included. His take on Mortarion's fall to Nurgle was kind of interesting, I suppose, but I'm not sure I buy it.

In the book, Mortarion's Equerry Caiphas is confronted by a unique Nurglite daemon named Remnant, who embodies the last hold-out of an old world as a new world overwhelms it. Remnant tells Caiphas the story of The Buried Dagger as a sort of analogue to Odysseus in the Siren's Strait: basically, Mortarion knew what would happen in the warp, and made plans to have it go down on his own terms because he truly wanted its power, even though he knew it was dangerous and corrupting (just as Odysseus knew the Sirens would lure his sailors to their deaths, and made plans to safeguard them even as he decided to listen to their song). I just didn't see it, even with Wraight having the opportunity to present that viewpoint carte blanche. He didn't sell it very well imo. Which goes back to the whole "phoning it in" I was talking about.

OTOH his tying of the loose ends of the old Siege lore regarding Jaghatai's liberation of the Lion's Gate were pretty fucking cool. Using Skye as an enormous mobile shield for their cavalry charge to the Spaceport, and inverting the meaning of the old lore about Jaghatai's triumphal return to the Palace on the back of a Leman Russ were neat twists.

Erda spouted some more dumb shit that made no sense, thank God that's finished now that Erebus killed her (wtf I love Erebus now?!). The Perpetual plot continues to meander along meaninglessly while attempting to masquerade as an important upcoming plot point/tease. I couldn't be bothered to care, as usual. Hopefully it's wrapped up by having all of the Perpetuals killed before ever getting to the Palace or something equally trollish.

At this point I'm starting to be interested in the fanon take on the final fight between Horus and the Emperor where it's actually Sanguinius that he fights and eventually is forced to kill. In this take, Sanguinius gets to the bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, falls completely to the Black Rage, and proceeds to slaughter everyone there, including Horus (possibly becoming the new Champion of Chaos?). Then the Emperor arrives, and receives the canon wounds trying to pull Sanguinius out of the Rage. Finally the Emperor realizes Sanginius can't be saved and delivers the death blow.

It's a fun take but it would upset decades worth of established lore, as well as completely invalidating whole narratives from previously written books (which were based on the already-established lore of the Vengeful Spirit being true). Not that Black Library seems to have a problem with doing that every couple years...

 

[Lyric Suite]

I warned you and warned you and warned you and warned you. Why wouldn't you listen?!

I'm too lazy to go grab another file to put on my ereader.

I'm aslo just reading stuff to fall asleep. It would be a waste to use an actual good book for that.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So for shits and gigles i removed the black library from an inventory.

Are they serious bro? I guess in the grim darkness of the universe there is only greed i can't believe they produced so much shit. I was looking at the horus heresy series and i stumbled on this pic displaying the supposed reading order:

WTF is this. I'm getting cross eyed just by looking at it.

I like the setting but come on this is a bit much don't they think? This is like romance novels for nerds at this point.

I dread to even look at the star wars library.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I like the setting but come on this is a bit much don't they think?

Think of it more along the lines of the SW EU. Read the authors you like and don't read those that you dislike (or go by themes, such as particular factions or what have you if that's more your thing).

 

[ERYFKRAD]

So for shits and gigles i removed the black library from an inventory.

Are they serious bro? I guess in the grim darkness of the universe there is only greed i can't believe they produced so much shit. I was looking at the horus heresy series and i stumbled on this pic displaying the supposed reading order:

WTF is this. I'm getting cross eyed just by looking at it.

I like the setting but come on this is a bit much don't they think? This is like romance novels for nerds at this point.

I dread to even look at the star wars library.

Lmao the reading order is a standalone CYOA.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I have no idea what that means.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I have no idea what that means.

Choose Your Own Adventure

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Anyhow, since this thread got revived, I must say that I really like the character of Kalkator. Post-HH IW Warsmith who ended up making his little empire with people worshipping the IWs as gods (i.e. tyranny without too much grimderp and without Chaos fuckery). And while that's neat in itself, guy is also responsible for the first loyalist space marine chapter to switch sides since the HH. And that chapter was... the Fists Exemplar (who one should recall that they were the zealous successor chapter of the Imperial Fists, the most hated enemies of the Iron Warriors). TL;DR version is that the IW & FE got themselves allied against Orkz and then Black Templars wanted to have the FE turn against the IW (which the former perceived as dishonorable conduct). Long story short, the FE leader ended up siding with the IW against the BT instead.

And with that out of the way, some great dialogues starring our guy:

‘What is this?’ said Kalkator. ‘The cult of the Emperor as god has grown so strong it has you in its clutches?’

‘What of it? I will not deny my faith! See, warsmith.’ Magneric raised a mighty metal fist and rotated upon his waist gimbal, showing the devastation of the battlefield triumphantly. ‘How can you deny it? You have witnessed the glory of the Emperor first hand, and that the strength of the Emperor is paramount over all things! Even sorely wounded upon His Golden Throne, He wields a power that cannot be denied! Nothing can stop Him, nor those who serve Him truly with faith within their hearts. One day He will rid the galaxy of all evil, for unlike the creatures you threw your lot in with He is just. Justice comes for you, Kalkator, the Emperor’s justice, and all your wicked betrayers will be destroyed for your treachery. Look upon this battlefield, look upon the slaughter. This was done by His will alone. That is why we follow Him.’

Kalkator gripped at the parapet, looking down on the enemy who, so long ago, had been a friend. ‘I am genuinely at a loss for words. Do your loyalist brothers know you have caught the madness of the puling herds and have turned your back upon the Imperial Truth, the lie you fought so hard to protect? That you are casting it aside for the greatest heresy of all?’

‘The Emperor protected us with His lie,’ said Magneric. ‘He protected us further by denying His godhood. We have had the scales lifted from our eyes. He is a god. The proof is around us everywhere, here on this battleground.’

Lights appeared in the sky, growing brighter. The Thunderhawks were coming.

‘You are abandoning everything you vowed to honour, and you call me a traitor?’ said Kalkator. ‘Such irony is a rare thing, Magneric. Do all your warriors follow this insane creed?’

‘Each and every one,’ said Magneric proudly.

‘Then you are treading the same deluded path as Lorgar. How will the other Space Marines look upon this great naiveté? Common humanity already worships the Emperor, and I say again, against His express wishes. All that is, Magneric, is an expression of their weakness and desire to be dominated, and proof of the Emperor’s desire to be worshipped despite His protestations. It appears Lorgar was but a little too early with his devotion. What would your Emperor make of you now? Would He hold out a hand for you to kiss while you grovel upon your knees? Or would He smash your face in with a mailed fist as He did to Lorgar?’

And a longer passage which is also great:

Spoiler

‘See, Zerberyn,’ said Bohemond. ‘See what you ally yourself with. This Iron Warrior is possessed of unnatural vigour! He has given himself over to fell powers to make himself mightier. You have sorely disappointed me, Zerberyn. Have you also embraced his sorcery? You disrupted the transit of my men. I should have blasted you from the void the moment I saw you.’

Zerberyn heaved himself out of a tangle of broken components and metal. His armour leaked gas from its ruptures, frothing ceramite gels bubbling around the cracks. The sounds of fighting diminished and stopped as the last of Bohemond’s Black Templars died.

The Fists Exemplar trained their guns on the Iron Warriors. A tense silence fell, too thick to be broken by the groans of the wounded and the dying.

The ship rocked and rumbled under the bombardment of the Abhorrence, but the shields held.

‘It is no sorcery. This vessel was modified to withstand the worst the Rubicante Flux could marshal. The Librarium choirs confound cross-warp teleport as easily as they do the daemon. You accuse a man who has spent his entire life fighting Chaos.’

‘You will burn for all time in the fires of the Emperor’s judgement,’ said Bohemond.

‘Call off the attack,’ said Zerberyn. ‘This ends now.’

‘Never!’ spat Bohemond. ‘I would rather die fighting than offer succour to the Traitor Legions. They are an abomination in the holy sight of the Emperor. They must be purged. If you will not do it, then I will, though I die in the attempt.’

‘See him throw his life away! Is this what you want to serve, Zerberyn? This frothing zealot? The Emperor himself denounced his own worship,’ said Kalkator. ‘He scolded the Word Bearers for seeing him as a god. And yet you will listen to the words of this man, who with his idolatory spits in the face of the Emperor you purport to follow.’

‘The Emperor is not a god,’ said Zerberyn. ‘It is you who should be censured, not I.’

‘There is another possibility, Zerberyn,’ said Kalkator. ‘Horus, Perturabo and the others were correct. The Emperor lied to us all, he denied the truth of the warp not to protect us, but to keep its secrets to himself. When it appeared his sons were stumbling too close to the truth of it, he forbade the use of Librarians. He intended all along to be a god, and he used the human race to make it happen. He was stopped just in time.’

‘Lies,’ said Bohemond. ‘The Emperor is divine. The Emperor protects!’

‘Which is it then, Bohemond?’ said Kalkator. ‘The Emperor spoke the truth, and he is not a god, and you are wrong, or he is a god, and you are right, which makes him a liar? Do you not see? He does not care about humanity, the whole purpose of his crusade was to further his own goals of ascendance. He didn’t wish to oppose the Gods of Chaos, he wanted to become one!’

‘Lies, lies!’ said Bohemond. ‘End him, Zerberyn. Turn your bridge weaponry on him and wipe his stain from the galaxy.’

‘Would you do that, Zerberyn?’ said Kalkator. ‘We are the true champions of mankind. We serve ourselves, but in doing so we preserve humanity. Might is right. To save our species we must embrace the powers of this universe, the great Gods of Chaos. We do not do this because we are evil, we do it because we must. What are you, Zerberyn? What are the Fists Exemplar?’

Oily swirls of light played through the oculus as a void shield collapsed. ‘We are a wall that defends the Imperium,’ he said dully. His heart was breaking.

‘You are a bastion in a fortress of lies, and this warrior, this Black Templar, who wears his fanaticism so openly, is its castellan. Kill him!’ urged Kalkator.

‘They will kill you too, Zerberyn, once they are done with me,’ said Bohemond.

‘We have fought alongside you for months, brother,’ said Kalkator. ‘Where were they?’

Zerberyn looked from Bohemond to Kalkator.

‘Call off the attack,’ Zerberyn said one last, hopeless time to Bohemond.

‘Never,’ said Bohemond.

A single shot was all it took. Bohemond’s head disappeared in a mist of blood, his body locked in place by his armour.

Zerberyn blinked stupidly at the bolt pistol in his hand. He had no recollection of drawing it. The little litany he had for the weapon went through his head. It was Umbra-pattern. It lacked the refinement of post-Heresy models, but it was good at what it was made for and always would be. Purity through utility: that was how one proofed oneself against the unknowables of the galaxy.

Without thinking, he had made his decision. He had damned himself.

‘All ships, open fire. Destroy the Abhorrence,’ he ordered.

Faces paler than lack of sunlight could explain looked back at him.

‘Now!’

The Black Templars battle-barge was beset on all sides, fire from the Paragon, Guilliman and the Dantalion bringing down one shield after another. With a low purple light, its final void shield gave out, and the combined barrage of the three Fists Exemplar ships slammed into it. The Abhorrence came apart in a shower of fire. Apothecary Reoch cackled like a child at a victory display. Honorius stood silently, his face lit by the explosion.

‘We are fortunate. If Bohemond had commanded the Eternal Crusader, we would all be dead,’ the Librarian said quietly.

Kalkator’s gun came up to Zerberyn’s face. He pressed it lightly against Zerberyn’s temple. Its muzzle was still warm from firing.

‘Who are you, First Captain Zerberyn? Are you a Fist Exemplar still? Will you slay me as you slew Bohemond? Was all this fratricide a terrible mistake?’

Zerberyn turned. Kalkator’s boltgun slid around his face until it was in the centre of his forehead. Zerberyn pressed his face against it and stared into Kalkator’s eye-lenses.

‘A Fist Exemplar is never mistaken,’ he said. He knelt. Behind him, the crew and Space Marines of the Dantalion followed his example.

‘Iron within, iron without,’ he said.

 

[Parsimonious cook]

So for shits and gigles i removed the black library from an inventory.

....

I like the setting but come on this is a bit much don't they think? This is like romance novels for nerds at this point.

I dread to even look at the star wars library.

If you were to read just one of Horus Heresy books, read the very first one - Horus Rising. It is great at introducing the 30K setting and even in terms of writting is it way better than most that came after that (even the ones from Dan Abnett - I thought Legion was fairly subpar for example and I normaly love pretty much everything he writes).

 

[Lyric Suite]

Well, i'm finishing up the Uriel+ Iron Warriors novels. Following this reading order 'cause why not:

https://www.trackofwords.com/2021/0...ltramarines-and-iron-warriors-graham-mcneill/

I actually got all the way to Killing Ground reading the Uriel Omnibus but then i saw the above list and realized i could go back the forth with the Iron Warriors. So i just started Storm of Iron instead of moving to Courage and Honor.

They do their job as light reading but so far i'd say that the setting remains more interesting than the media produced for it (same with their video games, barring a few exceptions like Dawn of War etc). I'm also getting a solid grasp on the lore. Warriors of Ultramar for instance pretty much explained everything i needed to learn about Tyranids. It's too bad that McNeill is such a normie writer. His prose sometimes gets actually pretty good. The chapter in Warriors of Ultramar where the Tyranids reach that backward redneck planet was actually quite vivid, but even his descriptions are inconsistent and the way he writes dialog is quite mediocre. My verdict of him so far is that he is Bioware writer with better prose than David Gaydar and company lel.

Since those guys are basically working for hire i wonder why they don't just use them for writing video games.

 

[Kalarion]

Kalkator

What do you like about him? Just the way he was characterized by Haley?

I have to say the two interactions you posted put the shallowness of thought of most of BW's stable on proud display. It's Kalkator spouting retarded gobbledygook masquerading as realpolitik and metaphysics, and Bohemond failing to apply even elementary-level critical analysis to Kalkator's claims. At the very least Bohemond could have asked something like, you know... "I'm already serving one proclaimed living god, why should I switch to serving another who is demonstrably less potent, with precisely the same contempt for the truth (what truth there is in the Warhammer universe) by his own words, and who displays demonstrably more contempt for the welfare and future of his servants?". Which is not to say such an argument would automatically ensure Bohemond would be a good boi and "see the light". Only that the argument would be covering those grounds before he bends the knee in any credible take on the subject.

And which is also not to say that the passages themselves weren't well-written strictly as prose. Guy Haley has been doing yeoman's work for BL for years, and these passages reinforce that; short, well-composed, straight to the point with just enough descriptive flair.

Since those guys are basically working for hire i wonder why they don't just use them for writing video games.

They do. Abnett writes for Marvel, has written for movies, and has his own novels. Graham McNeill left BW to work as the head of lore for League of Legends. ADB did a couple lore spots for Riot after Graham came over.

If I had to guess why it's not more common, I would suppose it's because Warhammer, both AoS and 40K, is a passion project for them. They're willing to live with lower overall pay and working conditions for the chance to be part of the game's lore development.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It's Kalkator spouting retarded gobbledygook masquerading as realpolitik and metaphysics

Nothing retarded about it, he's simply pointing out the hypocrisy of post-HH loyalist space marines in light of Big E's line pre-HH. And the IW don't see themselves as serving the Chaos gods, but simply as making use of them (e.g. forcing daemons into daemon engines and offering sacrifices to powerful warp entities in exchange for various boons as part of a purely transactional relationship devoid of religious underlinings). Kalkator and his cohort do not worship the big 4 warp creatures as gods and they abhor Chaos corruption, cutting off mutated limbs and the like & replacing them with tech.

Is such a position untenable in the long run? Sure, but that's only speaking from a meta perspective. From an in-universe one though, it's a legitimate stance for him to take. And if you take such a stance, then they are indeed following more closely the ideals of the Great Crusade than the current Imperium with its Lorgar tier beliefs. As for the rest, he's only mirroring the sentiments which already existed pre-HH among some space marines that they should rule over humanity since they represent a superior version of it (and that they should be worshipped not as gods, but as the pinnacle of humanity which they represent).

 

[Commissar Draco]

Anyhow, since this thread got revived, I must say that I really like the character of Kalkator. Post-HH IW Warsmith who ended up making his little empire with people worshipping the IWs as gods (i.e. tyranny without too much grimderp and without Chaos fuckery). And while that's neat in itself, guy is also responsible for the first loyalist space marine chapter to switch sides since the HH. And that chapter was... the Fists Exemplar (who one should recall that they were the zealous successor chapter of the Imperial Fists, the most hated enemies of the Iron Warriors). TL;DR version is that the IW & FE got themselves allied against Orkz and then Black Templars wanted to have the FE turn against the IW (which the former perceived as dishonorable conduct). Long story short, the FE leader ended up siding with the IW against the BT instead.

And with that out of the way, some great dialogues starring our guy:

‘What is this?’ said Kalkator. ‘The cult of the Emperor as god has grown so strong it has you in its clutches?’

‘What of it? I will not deny my faith! See, warsmith.’ Magneric raised a mighty metal fist and rotated upon his waist gimbal, showing the devastation of the battlefield triumphantly. ‘How can you deny it? You have witnessed the glory of the Emperor first hand, and that the strength of the Emperor is paramount over all things! Even sorely wounded upon His Golden Throne, He wields a power that cannot be denied! Nothing can stop Him, nor those who serve Him truly with faith within their hearts. One day He will rid the galaxy of all evil, for unlike the creatures you threw your lot in with He is just. Justice comes for you, Kalkator, the Emperor’s justice, and all your wicked betrayers will be destroyed for your treachery. Look upon this battlefield, look upon the slaughter. This was done by His will alone. That is why we follow Him.’

Kalkator gripped at the parapet, looking down on the enemy who, so long ago, had been a friend. ‘I am genuinely at a loss for words. Do your loyalist brothers know you have caught the madness of the puling herds and have turned your back upon the Imperial Truth, the lie you fought so hard to protect? That you are casting it aside for the greatest heresy of all?’

‘The Emperor protected us with His lie,’ said Magneric. ‘He protected us further by denying His godhood. We have had the scales lifted from our eyes. He is a god. The proof is around us everywhere, here on this battleground.’

Lights appeared in the sky, growing brighter. The Thunderhawks were coming.

‘You are abandoning everything you vowed to honour, and you call me a traitor?’ said Kalkator. ‘Such irony is a rare thing, Magneric. Do all your warriors follow this insane creed?’

‘Each and every one,’ said Magneric proudly.

‘Then you are treading the same deluded path as Lorgar. How will the other Space Marines look upon this great naiveté? Common humanity already worships the Emperor, and I say again, against His express wishes. All that is, Magneric, is an expression of their weakness and desire to be dominated, and proof of the Emperor’s desire to be worshipped despite His protestations. It appears Lorgar was but a little too early with his devotion. What would your Emperor make of you now? Would He hold out a hand for you to kiss while you grovel upon your knees? Or would He smash your face in with a mailed fist as He did to Lorgar?’

And a longer passage which is also great:

Spoiler

‘See, Zerberyn,’ said Bohemond. ‘See what you ally yourself with. This Iron Warrior is possessed of unnatural vigour! He has given himself over to fell powers to make himself mightier. You have sorely disappointed me, Zerberyn. Have you also embraced his sorcery? You disrupted the transit of my men. I should have blasted you from the void the moment I saw you.’

Zerberyn heaved himself out of a tangle of broken components and metal. His armour leaked gas from its ruptures, frothing ceramite gels bubbling around the cracks. The sounds of fighting diminished and stopped as the last of Bohemond’s Black Templars died.

The Fists Exemplar trained their guns on the Iron Warriors. A tense silence fell, too thick to be broken by the groans of the wounded and the dying.

The ship rocked and rumbled under the bombardment of the Abhorrence, but the shields held.

‘It is no sorcery. This vessel was modified to withstand the worst the Rubicante Flux could marshal. The Librarium choirs confound cross-warp teleport as easily as they do the daemon. You accuse a man who has spent his entire life fighting Chaos.’

‘You will burn for all time in the fires of the Emperor’s judgement,’ said Bohemond.

‘Call off the attack,’ said Zerberyn. ‘This ends now.’

‘Never!’ spat Bohemond. ‘I would rather die fighting than offer succour to the Traitor Legions. They are an abomination in the holy sight of the Emperor. They must be purged. If you will not do it, then I will, though I die in the attempt.’

‘See him throw his life away! Is this what you want to serve, Zerberyn? This frothing zealot? The Emperor himself denounced his own worship,’ said Kalkator. ‘He scolded the Word Bearers for seeing him as a god. And yet you will listen to the words of this man, who with his idolatory spits in the face of the Emperor you purport to follow.’

‘The Emperor is not a god,’ said Zerberyn. ‘It is you who should be censured, not I.’

‘There is another possibility, Zerberyn,’ said Kalkator. ‘Horus, Perturabo and the others were correct. The Emperor lied to us all, he denied the truth of the warp not to protect us, but to keep its secrets to himself. When it appeared his sons were stumbling too close to the truth of it, he forbade the use of Librarians. He intended all along to be a god, and he used the human race to make it happen. He was stopped just in time.’

‘Lies,’ said Bohemond. ‘The Emperor is divine. The Emperor protects!’

‘Which is it then, Bohemond?’ said Kalkator. ‘The Emperor spoke the truth, and he is not a god, and you are wrong, or he is a god, and you are right, which makes him a liar? Do you not see? He does not care about humanity, the whole purpose of his crusade was to further his own goals of ascendance. He didn’t wish to oppose the Gods of Chaos, he wanted to become one!’

‘Lies, lies!’ said Bohemond. ‘End him, Zerberyn. Turn your bridge weaponry on him and wipe his stain from the galaxy.’

‘Would you do that, Zerberyn?’ said Kalkator. ‘We are the true champions of mankind. We serve ourselves, but in doing so we preserve humanity. Might is right. To save our species we must embrace the powers of this universe, the great Gods of Chaos. We do not do this because we are evil, we do it because we must. What are you, Zerberyn? What are the Fists Exemplar?’

Oily swirls of light played through the oculus as a void shield collapsed. ‘We are a wall that defends the Imperium,’ he said dully. His heart was breaking.

‘You are a bastion in a fortress of lies, and this warrior, this Black Templar, who wears his fanaticism so openly, is its castellan. Kill him!’ urged Kalkator.

‘They will kill you too, Zerberyn, once they are done with me,’ said Bohemond.

‘We have fought alongside you for months, brother,’ said Kalkator. ‘Where were they?’

Zerberyn looked from Bohemond to Kalkator.

‘Call off the attack,’ Zerberyn said one last, hopeless time to Bohemond.

‘Never,’ said Bohemond.

A single shot was all it took. Bohemond’s head disappeared in a mist of blood, his body locked in place by his armour.

Zerberyn blinked stupidly at the bolt pistol in his hand. He had no recollection of drawing it. The little litany he had for the weapon went through his head. It was Umbra-pattern. It lacked the refinement of post-Heresy models, but it was good at what it was made for and always would be. Purity through utility: that was how one proofed oneself against the unknowables of the galaxy.

Without thinking, he had made his decision. He had damned himself.

‘All ships, open fire. Destroy the Abhorrence,’ he ordered.

Faces paler than lack of sunlight could explain looked back at him.

‘Now!’

The Black Templars battle-barge was beset on all sides, fire from the Paragon, Guilliman and the Dantalion bringing down one shield after another. With a low purple light, its final void shield gave out, and the combined barrage of the three Fists Exemplar ships slammed into it. The Abhorrence came apart in a shower of fire. Apothecary Reoch cackled like a child at a victory display. Honorius stood silently, his face lit by the explosion.

‘We are fortunate. If Bohemond had commanded the Eternal Crusader, we would all be dead,’ the Librarian said quietly.

Kalkator’s gun came up to Zerberyn’s face. He pressed it lightly against Zerberyn’s temple. Its muzzle was still warm from firing.

‘Who are you, First Captain Zerberyn? Are you a Fist Exemplar still? Will you slay me as you slew Bohemond? Was all this fratricide a terrible mistake?’

Zerberyn turned. Kalkator’s boltgun slid around his face until it was in the centre of his forehead. Zerberyn pressed his face against it and stared into Kalkator’s eye-lenses.

‘A Fist Exemplar is never mistaken,’ he said. He knelt. Behind him, the crew and Space Marines of the Dantalion followed his example.

‘Iron within, iron without,’ he said.

Only One company gone traitor the rest brake ranks and fought against the traitors but the shame as so huge that their Chapter Master just took all loyal examplars and made them new Imperial Fists instead of pursuing both Examplar traitors and Traitor Marines (Cant really call most Iron Warriors Chaos one as they are just assholes with mega grudge). Which shows how Space Marines muh Honor leads them to fail the Emperor and Humanity so often.

Another one example being Dark Angels to proud to admit some of them went traitor... Hey emo knights all Loyalist Legion had traitors and all Traitor Legions had Loyalists.

Comissar favorites being Antioch Dandtioch (the founder of Silver Skulls ''Ultra-smurfs'' sucessor chapter) Natianiel Garro, the Gavriel Loken and the bad-ass Imperial Herald Barthusa Narek.

 

[BrotherFrank]

Blood Angels are a bunch of hypocrite goobers and that includes their goldenboy darling.

Blood angels fanboi here, what’s all this about them being less then bro tier?

 

[Kalarion]

Full disclosure: I only read I Am Slaughter from The Beast, so I took your characterization of Kalkator, and the book quotes, completely at face value. So it may be there's some context here that you assumed I'd know that should change my perspective.

The basis for my assertion vv "retarded gobbledygook": the basic underpinning metaphysical assertion for 40K is that there is no God. Which is to say, there is no omnipotent, omniscient, Prime Mover which created and sustains all material reality by the force of His will, and whose nature and attributes define the standards of truth, morality and goodness. Instead there are many gods; that is, immensely powerful beings and cosmic forces which are able to exert tremendous influence on reality (physical and spiritual) and which claim a large base of sentient adherence (usually, worship). These gods represent durable but ultimately transient metaphysical realities, and have in both theory and fact changed over the epochs. So for the Eldar gods, the Chaos gods, Gork and Mork, the Old Ones, the C'Tan, the Greater Good, the Emperor etc.

I understand that the majority of the Imperium no longer understands or believes this, but we as the readers know they're ultimately wrong. And fortunately, the argument between Kalkator and Bohemond is between two people who are fundamentally In On It metaphysically. That is, they understand the aforementioned assertions to be true. So in this particular case we don't have to worry about that additional perspective. It's "in the game" (Magneric and Zerberyn), but it's ultimately meaningless in this scenario. It's a foil, nothing more.

It seems to me then, where there is no ultimate Standard by which all other reality is defined and against which it is judged, everything very quickly comes down to brutal pragmatism, both immediate and future. "What's in it for me? What's in it for my people? What's in it for my race/nation?", and so on. The question is no longer to find an ultimate reality to which you adhere. It is to decide what god best serves your, or your group's, interests. Or indeed if you yourself are the best vehicle for those interests, rather then some nebulous deity or ideal. In this sense, the supposed hypocrisies, the past lies and so forth of the Crudade-era Imperium, are dross in the argument. They are rhetorical flourishes, and shoddy ones at that. This part is what I was aiming at with the whole gobbledygook stuff. If the Emperor lied- if he built a mountain of lies, if he dealt in manipulation and dastardly deeds and so forth- my fundamental immediate retort would be "who gives a fuck?". The question of real import is: does the Emperor have the will to power to make the universe bend to his will, as any other god worth the name in the 40K universe does? The answer is yes. In that sense he is worthy of "worship", even if it's hollow. Following from that central question I would then need to decide: is the Emperor worthy of MY worship? Does aligning with him serve some interest of mine, whether physical or spiritual? And, just as important- if not the Emperor, who? Another god? Chaos? Myself? ...another Space Marine?

A large part of the reason I sneered at the quoted exchanges was due to the way you originally characterized Kalkator:

...making his little empire with people worshipping the IWs as gods (i.e. tyranny without too much grimderp and without Chaos fuckery).

Taken at face value that just makes Kalkator the Emperor, but smaller, meaner of spirit, with less power and reach, and with no discernable improvement in station for his subjects. He's trying to be the Emperor without any of the very real power, intelligence and wisdom the Emperor himself possessed. It's a losing proposition all around for any would-be adherent. At least the Emperor, target of the wrath of all 4 Chaos gods, isolated and alone, for all intents and purposes a revenant, can still stand toe to toe with them. Same with the gods of Chaos. Kalkator? He's shit on any other god's bootheel. Why the fuck would he be deserving of me going turncoat? What would the point be? Some principle or other? Laughable. I'm just switching one monumental liar for another, only now with less power behind him.

And your added context (sneaky bastard!):

...that they should rule over humanity since they represent a superior version of it (and that they should be worshipped not as gods, but as the pinnacle of humanity which they represent).

Only makes it a more silly proposition on its face. So he's not even claiming to be on the level of the Emperor, but he thinks others should give him the same level of adherence?! It makes even less sense now. By that logic he should still be "worshipping" his Primarch, and Pert should have stayed loyal to the Emperor!

All of my blather of which I tried to sum up in my one-liner:

"I'm already serving one proclaimed living god, why should I switch to serving another who is demonstrably less potent, with precisely the same contempt for the truth (what truth there is in the Warhammer universe) by his own words, and who displays demonstrably more contempt for the welfare and future of his servants?"

And again, it's not so much that it's unreasonable to suppose Bohemond would still have made the decision he did given all of this. People do such foolish things all the time, using the flimsiest of self-justifications as pretext. It's that he didn't even bother asking the question. It drives me nuts. In the entirety of the 40K library I can only think of three times it's been pondered in these terms: Alpharius dividing his allegiance between the Emperor and the Cabal, Lorgar deciding that the gods of Chaos were more worthy of worship than the Emperor (based exactly on what I said above, by the by: "what's in it for me/for humanity?"), and Guilliman pondering the Emperor's godhood in the Dark Imperium trilogy.

Anyways, thanks for giving me an excuse to vomit this out. I've been wanting to talk or write out my thoughts on the metaphysics of 40K for ages :D

 

[Hobo Elf]

Blood Angels are a bunch of hypocrite goobers and that includes their goldenboy darling.

Blood angels fanboi here, what’s all this about them being less then bro tier?

Muh vampirism and blood orgies.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Blood Angels are a bunch of hypocrite goobers and that includes their goldenboy darling.

Blood angels fanboi here, what’s all this about them being less then bro tier?

Muh vampirism and blood orgies.

How dare you besmirch the honor of the Saint Sanguinus Sons Heretic! BLAAAAMMM!!!!

Seriously the sons of Angel are best Legion cause they are flawed and thus interesting (Unlike Salamanders and Smurfs) and despite battlling their inner beast still stay loyal to the Emperor and Humanity unlike so many assholes who turned cause their Genetic Papa was towards his Dad and their Grandpa.

 

[BrotherFrank]

Blood Angels are a bunch of hypocrite goobers and that includes their goldenboy darling.

Blood angels fanboi here, what’s all this about them being less then bro tier?

Muh vampirism and blood orgies.

That's nothing new and they really don't enjoy being vampires or having a good risk of losing their shit the older they get. They view their curse as just that, a curse. Something to be ashamed of and which needs to be constantly kept in check.

So how does this make them hypocrites? They don't see themselves as "the shit" and better then anyone else, they hate themselves for their flaws and are their own worst critics when they fuck up. and finally were the OG chapter to give a shit about normal humans way back in 2nd edition, long before Salamanders (that came with 3rd war for armageddon) or Celestial Lions (also armageddon).

 

[Hobo Elf]

Blood Angels are a bunch of hypocrite goobers and that includes their goldenboy darling.

Blood angels fanboi here, what’s all this about them being less then bro tier?

Muh vampirism and blood orgies.

That's nothing new and they really don't enjoy being vampires or having a good risk of losing their shit the older they get. They view their curse as just that, a curse. Something to be ashamed of and which needs to be constantly kept in check.

So how does this make them hypocrites? They don't see themselves as "the shit" and better then anyone else, they hate themselves for their flaws and are their own worst critics when they fuck up. and finally were the OG chapter to give a shit about normal humans way back in 2nd edition, long before Salamanders (that came with 3rd war for armageddon) or Celestial Lions (also armageddon).

You're taking Warhammer 40k shitposting too seriously my brother.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

...making his little empire with people worshipping the IWs as gods (i.e. tyranny without too much grimderp and without Chaos fuckery).

Taken at face value that just makes Kalkator the Emperor, but smaller, meaner of spirit, with less power and reach, and with no discernable improvement in station for his subjects. He's trying to be the Emperor without any of the very real power, intelligence and wisdom the Emperor himself possessed. It's a losing proposition all around for any would-be adherent. At least the Emperor, target of the wrath of all 4 Chaos gods, isolated and alone, for all intents and purposes a revenant, can still stand toe to toe with them. Same with the gods of Chaos. Kalkator? He's shit on any other god's bootheel. Why the fuck would he be deserving of me going turncoat? What would the point be? Some principle or other? Laughable. I'm just switching one monumental liar for another, only now with less power behind him.

I did not use the word 'gods' in the theistic sense in my original post, but rather in the sense of venerating the space marines akin to (demi)gods. So no, unlike the Imperium, Kalkator's realm was still adhering to the sort of secularism promoted by the Imperial Truth.

And your added context (sneaky bastard!):

...that they should rule over humanity since they represent a superior version of it (and that they should be worshipped not as gods, but as the pinnacle of humanity which they represent).

Only makes it a more silly proposition on its face. So he's not even claiming to be on the level of the Emperor, but he thinks others should give him the same level of adherence?! It makes even less sense now. By that logic he should still be "worshipping" his Primarch, and Pert should have stayed loyal to the Emperor!

Not 'adding content', but expanding upon my short summary in response to your reply.

And nah, Kalkator's views boil down to might makes right. Nobody should give them anything, they'll simply impose their order upon you and that's that (same as Emps did upon other human planets during the Great Crusade). And given that space marines are superior to normal humans, they demand the respect of which they believe themselves to be deserving (whether it is obtained through willing worship or through force).

As for the Big E being a superior being, he's a superior being who in their view betrayed humanity in general (by peddling the Imperial Truth while planning his own apotheosis) and the Astartes in particular (by keeping them in the dark about the Chaos gods and his history with them). And given that Big E was no longer an ally of humanity in their view, Horus naturally became a legitimate alternative given that he was a primarch. And after the clusterfuck that was the HH and the disorganization of the Horus-aligned troops that led the IW to abandon the rest of them and go their own way, Perty is the legitimate leader in their view. That being said, Perty has been quite hands off with his own legion after resettling on Medrengard within the Eye of Terror, so Kalkator is ruling his own realm while remaining committed to the Long War and loyal to the IW.

Don't ask me how this fits with Perty being a daemon primarch though since I believe that not retconning his daemonhood was a mistake on GW's part imho. That being said, I still hope that GW goes for Perty ascending himself to daemonhood by using the Forge of Souls in which case he wouldn't be a daemon primarch of Chaos Undivided, but rather an unaffiliated warp entity of his own. Either that or him not being a real daemon primarch, but rather the primarch equivalent of a Chaos dreadnought with his armor safeguarding his wounded soul from further degradation.

Anyways, thanks for giving me an excuse to vomit this out. I've been wanting to talk or write out my thoughts on the metaphysics of 40K for ages :D

You're welcome, fam.

If you have the time to spare, Luetin made a pretty good 4-parter series that goes deep into the metaphysics of the Warp which takes into account both old(er) and new lore:

 

[BrotherFrank]

You're taking Warhammer 40k shitposting too seriously my brother.

Not my intention, mb if it seemed that way, just expected to be told all sorts of horrors coming from the books thrash talking my fav spehss mehreens.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

best Legion

As far as I'm concerned, that'd be the Iron Warriors (both pre-HH and post-HH). As for the best post-HH loyalist legion, the Iron Hands after Ferrus dies and they go full transhumanist autismo.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

They are not my hands.

This fact is forgotten by my brothers – inexplicably, it has always seemed to me. The hands are strong, to be sure, and have created great things for us all, but they are not mine. And that counts for something.

They forget that the silver on my arms comes from a beast that I vanquished. It is the mark of a great evil that I ended, and yet it persists within me. It is alien, artificial; an uneasy corollary to the superlative physical frame given to me by my father.

I would struggle to remove it now. The problem is not one of surgery, for I have no doubt my father’s chirurgeons could remake me entirely if he gave them the command. No, I will not remove the silver from my flesh because I have learned to depend on it.

The fault is with my mind. I rely on the augmentation given to me by my metal gauntlets, so much so that the flesh beneath them is now little more than a memory.

It is a crutch, this silver. A day will come when I will strip it from me, lest I lose the power to master myself forever. Already my Legion’s warriors replace their shield hands with metal in my honour, and so they too are learning to doubt the natural strength of their bodies. They must be weaned off this practice before it becomes a mania for them. Hatred of what is natural, of what is human, is the first and greatest of the corruptions.

So I record it here: when the time comes, I will strip my hands of their unnatural silver. I will instruct my Legion to recant their distrust of the flesh. I will turn them away from the gifts of the machine and bid them relearn the mysteries of flesh, bone and blood.

When my father’s Crusade is over, this shall be my sacred task. When the fighting is done, I shall cure my Legion, and myself. For if fighting is all there is, if we may never pause to reflect on what such devotion to strength is doing to us, then our compulsion will only grow.

Already I see the madness that path leads to, and so I shall excise the silver from my hands. In doing so I shall weaken myself and my sons, but nonetheless it must be done.

The hands are strong, and have created great things, but they are not mine.