Warhammer Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Average Manatee]

WH40k is the worst setting to be a """caster""".

I dunno, I think it might be worse in the Cthulu Mythos? There its not a question of whether casting magic eventually makes you go crazy or requires you to sell your soul to elder gods, it's literally just the prerequisite to get started.

 

[Cryomancer]

WH40k is the worst setting to be a """caster""".

I dunno, I think it might be worse in the Cthulu Mythos? There its not a question of whether casting magic eventually makes you go crazy or requires you to sell your soul to elder gods, it's literally just the prerequisite to get started.

This for humans. Magic is far beyond human capability, hence it leads to insanity. But aliens can use it with no problem, now in WH40, even among species more suitable for magic like space elves/Eldar, get fucked(in their case figuratively and literally).

What I don't understand in Reinhardt is that for him :

• Using axes, chainswords, maces, knifes in melee and bolters at range = ok
• Using a force sword and telekinesis at range = awesome button, pew pew!!!

 

[Reinhardt]

What I don't understand in Reinhardt is that for him :

• wearing pants = ok
• wearing dress = ghey!!!

really strange guy that reinhardt...

 

[Camel]

Bunch of ex Nivals making their third game probably arent idiots, they made some decent fights in Wrath. Its just that AAA pipeline isnt compatible with strong RPG fundamentals. Half of a playerbase doesnt care about if its even rpg or not plays for shit giggles story. 90% dont even finish the game.
What we love in rpgs is often a labour of fine tuned lovingly crafted custom content. Popping every flower to be collected every item to have a story etc. Styg or other indie dev can sit there for years doing that, since it is also easier to do on simplier framework. But big studio cant. They are on timer, they cant put everyone for 5 years on to craft perfect codexers DM experience, they need to ship this mf and also do lots of petty shit like cutscenes and vo and its cutthroat business, nobody needs just a good rpg, they need something bombastic to get attention.

So there will be good encounters early, maybe some peak ones midgame, then a slog as devs try to hastily throw on you something to fill endgame and wrap everything up. Considering it is also new system and they been making d20 for years I d also expect some major hiccups until first addon.

I didn’t know they’re former devs from Nival Interactive. Damn, the name caused me instant nostalgia. Silent Storm was a great game and a spiritual successor to Jagged Alliance from 20 years ago. Pity there are no such games anymore in the current market.
I’ve read Owlcat devs got a MMORPG fatigue with working on Allods Online which used to be hugely popular in Russia and wanted to make single-player games.

 

[Maculo]

As promised, I got you some details about the difficulty mechanics of the game.
Since we don't have automatic battles, and they are turn-based, the player will have to control the companions on their own even on easy difficulty, so one way or another the player will have to figure out the abilities and how to use them.
As the difficulty increases, various modifiers (dodge chance, hit chance, debuffs, stats, etc.) will change.
In addition, with increasing difficulty, enemies will use new abilities. That is, their intelligence changes. Also, the number of mobs for some encounters will change.

You will receive plenty of feedback on this question. Personally, I find expectation is key. When I load a new game and increase the difficulty, I always hope to see something new and fresh. Increasing stats of enemies by itself, rarely accomplishes that. Furthermore, at a certain point, bloated health pools can create tedium more so than challenge.

Absent adding harder enemies in an encounter, I believe giving enemies additional equipment (e.g., grenades, buffs) or feats/abilities (knockdown, teamwork on swarm, sniper bonus) would keep a new playthrough feeling fresh.

 

[Roguey]

For two games now Owlcat has affirmed that they believe in quantity>quality. They're not going to design those hundreds of encounters multiple times.

 

[Maculo]

For two games now Owlcat has affirmed that they believe in quantity>quality. They're not going to design those hundreds of encounters multiple times.

Not that I disagree you, but that holds true for most devs nowadays. Granted, I thought adding an additional feat or ability across the board on an enemy type would be less work than adding a higher tier-creature or new tactics, but that is an assumption on my part.

 

[Joyvankek]

You're the only one talking about "super improved deadly babau butcher enforcer" we're talking about basic enemies you encounter later in the game on normal difficulty showing up earlier on higher difficulty. All it does in practice is introduce enemies with better equipment and abilities earlier in the game to force you to adapt when you aren't as prepared as you would normally be.

If we have enough diversity in enemy department, then this could work. We will also avoid the increased HP and modifiers.

Is Owlcat considered AAA now?

A special custom A with low ru pay and Cyprus taxation evasion.

Whatever gives me good product and cheaper price.
Also nothing wrong with avoiding legal banditry of the ruling parasites.

 

[Reinhardt]

If we have enough diversity in enemy department, then this could work.

it could work at the beginning of the game. what about second half? you can't add easy monsters to hard encounters, so you will see bigger and bigger hordes of early game mid-bosses. how can you solve it? make speshul extra stronk monsters with unique look and skill set you can encounter only in nightmare difficulty mode of final dungeon i.e. 99,9% of players will never even see them?

 

[Joyvankek]

If we have enough diversity in enemy department, then this could work.

it could work at the beginning of the game. what about second half? you can't add easy monsters to hard encounters, so you will see bigger and bigger hordes of early game mid-bosses. how can you solve it? make speshul extra stronk monsters with unique look and skill set you can encounter only in nightmare difficulty mode of final dungeon i.e. 99,9% of players will never even see them?

This was already answered, but ok... Since you don't like this idea.
What's your proposition then?
Go ahead, throw in some ideas instead of just repeating the same point over and over again.

 

[notpl]

Underrail that still one character only small indie, one of the greatest one man effort for sure that hardly anyone play , even here with less than 30% codexers. A full professional team could do lot better if there's a will, and apply its formula to a full team of characters however. Now that could turn out into one of the greatest rpg ever.
I like that they plan to add more enemies instead of HP bloat them so they are on the right track at least on paper, if there's use of terrain and many abilities.

Calling Underrail a "one-man effort" seems rather disrespectful to its various contributors.

 

[Reinhardt]

If we have enough diversity in enemy department, then this could work.

it could work at the beginning of the game. what about second half? you can't add easy monsters to hard encounters, so you will see bigger and bigger hordes of early game mid-bosses. how can you solve it? make speshul extra stronk monsters with unique look and skill set you can encounter only in nightmare difficulty mode of final dungeon i.e. 99,9% of players will never even see them?

This was already answered, but ok... Since you don't like this idea.
What's your proposition then?
Go ahead, throw in some ideas instead of just repeating the same point over and over again.

tucker's xaurips.

 

[Zayne]

And that difficulty setting should be challenging by virtue of AI, without relying on gimmicks.

Virtuous AI:
Ignores you tanks, charges right into casters/archers. Also, murders unconscious characters, instead of switching targets.

Do you really want to play against it?

 

[Nortar]

If we have enough diversity in enemy department, then this could work.

it could work at the beginning of the game. what about second half? you can't add easy monsters to hard encounters, so you will see bigger and bigger hordes of early game mid-bosses. how can you solve it? make speshul extra stronk monsters with unique look and skill set you can encounter only in nightmare difficulty mode of final dungeon i.e. 99,9% of players will never even see them?

This was already answered, but ok... Since you don't like this idea.
What's your proposition then?
Go ahead, throw in some ideas instead of just repeating the same point over and over again.

I'm not Reinhardt, but if we rephrase the question as "what's the alternative?" it was already answered too.

As the end goal is to make encounters harder not more tedius, there could be no universal one-size-fits-all solution.

If you automatically replace all mobs A with mobs B in every encounter, or provide game-wide +10% HP buff to each enemy it will be boring as shit.

The best result can only be achieved with dev's attention and manual tweaking.
And it would take all the options, from adding extra and/or special mobs, improving their skills and stats, to improving/changing enemies AI and limiting characters resoures.

This is why I like idea that it's better to design and balance the game around the hardest difficult first - lets call it's the "core rules".
It seems to be simplier to make things easier, not harder.
Drop an enemy here, equip worse gear there - and it will be guarantedly easier then the hardest difficulty without any extra attention to balance.

 

[EvilWolf]

For two games now Owlcat has affirmed that they believe in quantity>quality. They're not going to design those hundreds of encounters multiple times.

No, they'll modify their encounter script to pull enemies from a specific pool depending on the difficulty. It isn't rocket science.

 

[Joyvankek]

If we have enough diversity in enemy department, then this could work.

it could work at the beginning of the game. what about second half? you can't add easy monsters to hard encounters, so you will see bigger and bigger hordes of early game mid-bosses. how can you solve it? make speshul extra stronk monsters with unique look and skill set you can encounter only in nightmare difficulty mode of final dungeon i.e. 99,9% of players will never even see them?

This was already answered, but ok... Since you don't like this idea.
What's your proposition then?
Go ahead, throw in some ideas instead of just repeating the same point over and over again.

I'm not Reinhardt, but if we rephrase the question as "what's the alternative?" it was already answered too.

As the end goal is to make encounters harder not more tedius, there could be no universal one-size-fits-all solution.

If you automatically replace all mobs A with mobs B in every encounter, or provide game-wide +10% HP buff to each enemy it will be boring as shit.

The best result can only be achieved with dev's attention and manual tweaking.
And it would take all the options, from adding extra and/or special mobs, improving their skills and stats, to improving/changing enemies AI and limiting characters resoures.

This is why I like idea that it's better to design and balance the game around the hardest difficult first - lets call it's the "core rules".
It seems to be simplier to make things easier, not harder.
Drop an enemy here, equip worse gear there - and it will be guarantedly easier then the hardest difficulty without any extra attention to balance.

This need to be implemented at the draft stage of development. It certainly is a better approach than making a game around normal, and then just increasing enemy's HP, statistics and their amount. Which just makes every encounter to last longer and more tiresome.

 

[The_Mask]

And that difficulty setting should be challenging by virtue of AI, without relying on gimmicks.

Virtuous AI:
Ignores your tanks, charges right into casters/archers. Also, murders unconscious characters, instead of switching targets.

Do you really want to play against it?

I imagine most of the time, the AI wouldn't see any ranged characters first, because I wouldn't be so silly to keep them in the front. And when it did, say after a turn, it should formulate strategies where both my tank is kept busy *and* my back row is being threatened. Possibly calculating cost-to-benefit.

That's the real problem, isn't it? Field of vision. Threat assessment. Tactical decision making. This is how these RPGs started back in the 1800's, right? They started as tactical exercises.

This is why developers these days get stumped between making a mediocre shovelware title and something great. Things that back in the day we took for granted. Concepts like: fog-of-war, field of vision, threat assessment and the interaction between narrative and mechanics.

Done right? Yes, I'd want to play against it. Done wrong, and unfair? No, I wouldn't.


Oh and by the by: how is the AI going to measure the difference between "unconscious" and "dead". Sometimes, for seasoned warriors it's hard to tell. And you don't always have the time for the mandatory shot to the heart+shot to the head spiel.
Gimmicks like these: a headache you don't really need. When a character is down, a character is down. The AI should only think of it as damage mitigation. Much like a human would.

 

[Reinhardt]

Oh and by the by: how is the AI going to measure the difference between "unconscious" and "dead". Sometimes, for seasoned warriors it's hard to tell. And you don't always have the time for the mandatory shot to the heart+shot to the head spiel.
Gimmicks like these a headache you don't really need. When a character is down, a character is down. The AI should only think of it as damage mitigation. Much like a human would.

throw a fucking fireball, like we do to finish bunch of downed trolls. enemies live one encounter so they don't need to save resources.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Oh and by the by: how is the AI going to measure the difference between "unconscious" and "dead". Sometimes, for seasoned warriors it's hard to tell. And you don't always have the time for the mandatory shot to the heart+shot to the head spiel.
Gimmicks like these a headache you don't really need. When a character is down, a character is down. The AI should only think of it as damage mitigation. Much like a human would.

throw a fucking fireball, like we do to finish bunch of downed trolls. enemies live one encounter so they don't need to save resources.

Casterfag

 

[Reinhardt]

Oh and by the by: how is the AI going to measure the difference between "unconscious" and "dead". Sometimes, for seasoned warriors it's hard to tell. And you don't always have the time for the mandatory shot to the heart+shot to the head spiel.
Gimmicks like these a headache you don't really need. When a character is down, a character is down. The AI should only think of it as damage mitigation. Much like a human would.

throw a fucking fireball, like we do to finish bunch of downed trolls. enemies live one encounter so they don't need to save resources.

Casterfag

i have sword +fire damage and flail of ages.
aerie tho...

 

[The_Mask]

enemies live one encounter so they don't need to save resources.

This is, unironically, another conundrum good game developers have. Should the AI treat the fight like you do? Should the AI throw the kitchen sink?

My opinion: the AI should treat the encounter much like a human would. Spend resources as scarcely as possible, at first, because the day is not over, and you might bump into something else. Spare nothing, if you notice odds start to be against you, and you're close to annihilation.

But good AI takes a lot of work. And working is hard. And most people don't want to work. Hell, these days most people don't even want to make the game they want to make. They just make whatever it's been "proven to sell well".

 

[Reinhardt]

Spare nothing, if you notice odds start to be against you

basically after first casualty.

 

[Modron]

Spare nothing, if you notice odds start to be against you

basically after first casualty.

Sounds very cheesable, kill the mage (whatever) first then watch as the rest chug potions.

 

[Joyvankek]

enemies live one encounter so they don't need to save resources.

This is, unironically, another conundrum good game developers have. Should the AI treat the fight like you do? Should the AI throw the kitchen sink?

My opinion: the AI should treat the encounter much like a human would. Spend resources as scarcely as possible, at first, because the day is not over, and you might bump into something else. Spare nothing, if you notice odds start to be against you, and you're close to annihilation.

But good AI takes a lot of work. And working is hard. And most people don't want to work. Hell, these days most people don't even want to make the game they want to make. They just make whatever it's been "proven to sell well".

Agree, it's better from RPG's perspective.
Unless you deal with a faction that doesn't really care about their own like Tyranids. Then we have chaos, who are even funnier pickle with all the betrayals, lack of discipline(At least in your usual chaos cult), and different behaviors depending against which flavor of chaos cult/demons/Legion or Warband you are fighting against.
But It would require quite a lot of work to actually make A.I that could reflect the behavior of different factions during an encounter.
No point in hoping for something like that. Just be content that we finally get an RPG in W40K, and hope it won't suck or have retarded politic in.

 

[Humbaba]

For two games now Owlcat has affirmed that they believe in quantity>quality. They're not going to design those hundreds of encounters multiple times.

Wrathfinder has loads of well crafted encounters, it's just that gaymers who refuse to git gud complain about muh bloat and muh overtuning.