Game News Warhorse's Kingdom Come: Deliverance Is Now on Kickstarter

[Dokkalfar]

You do realize that stats based (character skill) gameplay is boring as all fuck?

That's an opinion. And really that's how RPG combat should be - a reflection of your stats compared with the enemy, with some random chance thrown in. At least in Ultima Underworld, TES Arena/Daggerfall whether your attacks missed or hit was determined by stats and skills, although it required the player to click every attack and use spells manually, there was still dice rolls under the hood which determined all this.

So unless this game has UU, TES Arena/Daggerfall style combat then I don't think it's a true RPG, it's just an action-game with RPG elements.

Even old traditional cRPGs leaned heavily toward player skill. Tactics and all that,

No they didn't, traditional cRPGs like Might & Magic, Bard's Tale, Ultima, Wizardry all had relatively simple combat without "tactics" in modern parlance. The games were primarily about character progression, hard-hitting enemies, hard encounters. But you could just overlevel challenges by grinding xp on random encounters until your stats were better than anything else, and steamroll.

that's player skill, not character skill (though of course character skill does play some limiting role).

Pure bullshit, please play some of those traditional cRPGs and see if you can beat them without bad stats, by using "tactics".

This is just like that, except its a different type of player skill.

Yes, twitch, reflexes.

The NPC AI video looks awesome. If Warhorse can nail this stuff down, this game could definitely be the spiritual successor to the first two Gothic games.

But they will never be RPGs.

 

[Xeon]

Is Smejki a dev or similar to Larian's Stabbey?

 

[Dokkalfar]

But what I really mean is - first-person single-character games shouldn't be RPG's, whoever thought up the idea is an idiot, they will inevitably degenerate into full-blown action games because the old "swing miss swing miss" at point-blank range in titles like Morrowind is just bad gameplay. Morrowind had good RPG combat, but it had bad combat. Same goes for this game, it might get "good" action combat, but it won't get good RPG combat - ie combat won't be reflective of all the time the player spends getting xp, leveling up, and building their character. And what if anything are RPG's about if not power progression.

But at least you've got games like WL2 and Age of Decadence that understand this.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

Morrowind ... allowed them make a cultural simulation

What is the simulation about it? I like Morrowind but damn, it is just a big static map split into:
- several cultural regions
- several environmental regios
with several faction/culture defined locations scattered all around and with a decent politics-meet-fantasy story.

San Andreas was just a few cities and towns with a few different environmental regions in between...

Anyway, 3000+ named npcs and over 4 novels worth of writing doesn't really create an actual simulated culture, but it was fleshed out and deep enough to suck me into it.

You are kinda missing the fact that people responsible for writing story and designing quests and environments (which is where Morrowind excelled... well except for quests) are different from guys designing game systems.

I know. I just want to believe that a handful of jack of all trade developers with kickstarter money can create another game like that.

 

[Paul_cz]

I see that another thread got successfully derailed with the idiotic "What is an RPG" drivel. Good job codex, never change.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

I liked the shitty animations in Morrowind. I liked the apparently crappy combat. I liked how npcs never slept, never changed routine and how they occasionally blocked doorways.

How disappointing that an indie group wants to improve on the shortcomings of an average open world game instead of taking inspiration from the few great ones.

...

Morrowind felt like a sandbox game for the developers as much as the players. Freedom from focusing on trivial shit allowed them make a cultural simulation on a virtual mini
- continent.

I don't think developers can be free to create that type of experience again by focusing on the smaller details, and I'm desperate to have another Morrowind experience.

If the actual gameplay elements don't concern you, and you are just interested in dialogue/in-game-book based lore, why are you playing video games? I am sure there are lots of books out there (or in Morrowind spirit, wikipedias) that will provide even better lore.

Kingdom Come feels like it hasn't even considered Morrowind as an inspiration, which means developers might be forgetting my favourite game ever existed.

And why am I playing video games if don't think Morrowind was fatally flawed outside the lore and dialogue? There must be something wrong with me I guess.

 

[cvv]

I see that another thread got successfully derailed with the idiotic "What is an RPG" drivel. Good job codex, never change.

It's like dem imams squabbling over what is "true islam".

And just like here on Codex, there is always some Abdul who is deeply convinced true islam is whatever he and his buddy Mustafa think it is. And is willing to kill all the blasphemers.

 

[Monty]

I see that another thread got successfully derailed with the idiotic "What is an RPG" drivel. Good job codex, never change.

Given that the person involved joined on Monday, it just proves that there is an endless supply of fresh newfags keen to debate the same things that have been debated here since 2002. At the first sign of that old argument kicking off I tend to just move onto the next post.

 

[Dokkalfar]

Also, what is with games in these modern 3D engines that make all the environments look plastic, and all the character models look like dolls slathered in vaseline. UE4, Frostbite, doesn't matter what they use there's this look about them.

Morrowind with it's low-poly characters and mundane environment had a thousand times more charm about it.

 

[cvv]

Also, what is with games in these modern 3D engines that make all the environments look plastic, and all the character models look like dolls slathered in vaseline. UE4, Frostbite, doesn't matter what they use there's this look about them.

Morrowind with it's low-poly characters and mundane environment had a thousand times more charm about it.

Nostalgiafag detected.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

You do realize that stats based (character skill) gameplay is boring as all fuck?

That's an opinion. And really that's how RPG combat should be - a reflection of your stats compared with the enemy, with some random chance thrown in.

Umm, ok, so you like combat which is automatically resolved. Fun stuff.

So unless this game has UU, TES Arena/Daggerfall style combat then I don't think it's a true RPG, it's just an action-game with RPG elements.

Setting aside the most widely used RPG defintion, even if we take the original definition of a game where you can play various roles, all that's needed for that is enough stats to enforce roles, which can coexist perfectly with an action based combat system.

Even old traditional cRPGs leaned heavily toward player skill. Tactics and all that,

No they didn't, traditional cRPGs like Might & Magic, Bard's Tale, Ultima, Wizardry all had relatively simple combat without "tactics" in modern parlance. The games were primarily about character progression, hard-hitting enemies, hard encounters. But you could just overlevel challenges by grinding xp on random encounters until your stats were better than anything else, and steamroll.

And I can name just as many others that had tactics. Guess which group is fondly remembered for its combat.

that's player skill, not character skill (though of course character skill does play some limiting role).

Pure bullshit, please play some of those traditional cRPGs and see if you can beat them without bad stats, by using "tactics".

As I said, the stats do play a role, but most of the fun in combat comes from the player skill part.

This is just like that, except its a different type of player skill.

Yes, twitch, reflexes.

And you are against this on what, religious principles?

 

[evdk]

Also, what is with games in these modern 3D engines that make all the environments look plastic, and all the character models look like dolls slathered in vaseline. UE4, Frostbite, doesn't matter what they use there's this look about them.

Morrowind with it's low-poly characters and mundane environment had a thousand times more charm about it.

'sup Drog.

 

[Smejki]

Is Smejki a dev or similar to Larian's Stabbey?

A dev, since January this year

 

[Suchy]

The guy woriking on behavior scripts didn't get much sleep lately, did he?

 

[Xeon]

A dev, since January this year

Congratulations!!

 

[Paul_cz]

Seriously, what is up with posting every little update or interview about all the other KS games whose kickstarters already ended, and no postings at all about this one whose kickstarter is still actually running ?

 

[WhiteGuts]

They say in the video that the game will consider the player as just one more NPC. I find this idea really interesting, I dunno if there were games that took this approach before.

 

[Excidium]

Just one more NPC destined to lead armies and save the kingdom

 

[WhiteGuts]

NPC from a technical point of view, you're still obviously the center of the game...

 

[cvv]

NPC from a technical point of view, you're still obviously the center of the game...

Yeah, although I'm all for authenticiy it probably wouldn't be very riveting to play as one of dem smelly blacksmiths doing nothing all day but banging your hammer and scratching your scrotum.

Although players today...

 

[NotAGolfer]

Nice point, I can't remember any game where a forest actually feels like a forest.

Operation Flashpoint and the ARMAs come to mind.

I'm not that optimistic about this game anymore btw, pulled my pledge too.
Something feels wrong about this, first the bullshit Vavra said about why the publishers didn't want to fund it (sure, they all want to make nothing but tablet games in the future, sounds convincing ^^), then something about a world where not that much happens and slight boredom is even intended. No dragons is ok, but the few dungeons (or better cellars) they can implement without making it unrealistic can't sustain much of gameplay too because realism (so no monsters, bandit lairs at most). So what should the player do besides follow the main quest? In a small 3,5 square miles area moreover. This is unlike Mount&Blade, where the map was much more zoomed out with whole countries like in a strategy game, this is something completely new. And I just don't trust them to fill that small world with interesting side content, even less with providing good RPG mechanics. The one button blocking without the need to change viewing direction, the lack of information about what leveling mechanics they actually use (besides level up makes you block and hit faster), Vavras bullshit response in that codex interview about how todays consoles don't need stats like PnP RPGs because they can make it all skill based:

I want to simulate how it is to be a knight wandering in a huge world, doing various stuff. The computers were not powerful enough, so a lot of stuff had to be left to the imagination and some kind of simulation based on numbers, luck and probabilities instead of real skill. I would say that the RPG rules and all those stats are just the means to simulate the world. RPG is an attempt for an ultimate simulation, that includes even the growth of the character and other things that are not visible.

Today, computers are powerful enough for accurate real-time visuals with all the simulation calculated in the background, and the controls are so sophisticated that it's possible to make very accurate skill-based simulation of combat or movement. So the RPG is no more about the dices and stats—it could be completely skill-based and it will finally resemble the real world as we all desired back in the days of pen and paper.

I want a mix of player skill and character skill in my RPGs so give me my stats (and not just 2 or 3) or fuck off!

Fuck, I guess it won't even have a decent RPG loot progression because that would also be unrealistic (maybe weapons from more skilled weaponsmiths later in the game but no different materials and more powerful weapon types).
Reality is boring, why does everybody try to mimic it?
What's wrong with all these realismfags out there?

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Fuck, I guess it won't even have a decent RPG loot progression because that would also be unrealistic (maybe weapons from more skilled weaponsmiths later in the game but no different materials and more powerful weapon types).
Reality is boring, why does everybody try to mimic it?
What's wrong with all these realismfags out there?

This is hilarious. A gazillion non-realistic RPGs out there, but the first time someone tries to make a realistic one (Darklands wasn't fully realistic), somebody's gotta whine about it.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

ie combat won't be reflective of all the time the player spends getting xp, leveling up, and building their character.

And that's a bad thing?

And what if anything are RPG's about if not power progression.

.

Diablo 2. A true RPG.
Unlike those popamole action games like Gothic or Vampire Bloodline.

 

[tyrannosaurus rex]

Seriously, what is up with posting every little update or interview about all the other KS games whose kickstarters already ended, and no postings at all about this one whose kickstarter is still actually running ?

Because its not about ships making explosions in space or wizards making explosions with their minds. It also seems to have an elegant combat systems which fits perfectly in the context of the game. They also haven't thrown the ''morally grey'' buzzword enough times and don't seem to obsesses over throwing endless artificial moral dilemmas at the player. Yet.

Some here are turned off by that.

 

[Paul_cz]

Seriously, what is up with posting every little update or interview about all the other KS games whose kickstarters already ended, and no postings at all about this one whose kickstarter is still actually running ?

Because its not about ships making explosions in space or wizards making explosions with their minds. It also seems to have an elegant combat systems which fits perfectly in the context of the game. They also haven't thrown the ''morally grey'' buzzword enough times and don't seem to obsesses over throwing endless artificial moral dilemmas at the player. Yet.

Some here are turned off by that.

Yeah, apparently. Sad though. Look at NotAGolfer. Jeez.