Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

I hope you understand that other people may have different opinions on the subject, opinions they can and did back with valid arguments you chose to ignore.

You're such an arrogant sod sometimes. I did not ignore them, I argued against them being valid. I provided arguments that I still think are better. Don't cry that I "ignored them."

It doesn't matter what Deep Silver's role is in this specific instance.

This is where we disagree. I hold Fargo responsible for his promises, I do not expect him to be responsible for others, nor to engage in some kind of industry driven political consumption.

I expect a game where the creative control lies with Fargo and his customers. That was what was promised. As long as he does this, I don't see how any reasonable man can claim that the engagement with Deep Silver constitutes lying or anything resembling it.

You might have a personal dislike for it, but claiming Fargo ever said "I will not engage with anyone that drive traditional publisher business" is bullshit. Hell, that's exactly what he did with EA to even make the Kickstarter possible.

 

[himmy]

What's so wrong with an end turn button even without the sarcasm?

No problem with "an end turn button", lots of problems that end turn button. It looks like crap. Other parts of the UI look pretty bad as well, but the end turn button is just atrocious, in that it looks like a first month of development place-holder or something you would see in a lower-tier browser game.

 

[Zed]

It doesn't matter what Deep Silver's role is in this specific instance.

This is where we disagree. I hold Fargo responsible for his promises, I do not expect him to be responsible for others, nor to engage in some kind of industry driven political consumption.

I expect a game where the creative control lies with Fargo and his customers. That was what was promised. As long as he does this, I don't see how any reasonable man can claim that the engagement with Deep Silver constitutes lying or anything resembling it.

You might have a personal dislike for it, but claiming Fargo ever said "I will not engage with anyone that drive traditional publisher business" is bullshit. Hell, that's exactly what he did with EA to even make the Kickstarter possible.

I don't recall claiming this... but I am insinuating there's a bit of hypocrisy at foot, yes. Also that Deep Silver sucks dick.

Regardless, it's not like I'd ever dislike Fargo. How could I?

 

[Brother None]

Oi Brother None is that a mockup UI or the UI in the engine, because it looks like the UI has been pasted over the top of a screenshot. There is such a stark difference in detail between the UI and the game.

It's all in-engine. 2D art looks different than 3D art, especially when it's all heavily WIP (this is still only alpha).

Scratch that careless phrasing, yes, it is a 2D concept pasted on top of the screenshot.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I hope you understand that other people may have different opinions on the subject, opinions they can and did back with valid arguments you chose to ignore.

You're such an arrogant sod sometimes. I did not ignore them, I argued against them being valid. I provided arguments that I still think are better. Don't cry that I "ignored them."

Saying that not everyone agrees with you is being considered arrogant now? And yes, you did ignore them by stating in this thread (and tagging me, mind you) that people complained only because they think that publishers are evil. This is called ignoring the argument and you can't weasel out of it now, not even if you use powerful arguments like 'don't cry now' or 'but... but... weren't my arguments better?'

Don't be a bitch, Grunker, it's unseemly in a young lady.

 

[Ulminati]

Anyone pretending Fargo didn't purposely deceive us is a fanboy or a troll.

Anyone pretending Fargo purposely deceived us is a shitposter or a troll.

I never attribute to malice what could be adequately explained by incompetence.

 

[Grunker]

Saying that not everyone agrees with you is being considered arrogant now?

No, claiming I ignore arguments is.

(and tagging me, mind you)

I like to tag people when I talk about them/criticize their arguments. Anything else is being a pussy.

 

[Sensuki]

So one thing I'd love to hear - especially from those critical of the HUD - give us some examples of game UIs you did love, and cite specifically what you loved about them. Name your games or give us screenshots. That would be some great input to have as we continue tinkering with it.

All the games that have good UI's IMO have solid, uniform and symmetrical UI's. I liked the Infinity Engine game UIs, Fallout Tactics, Warcraft 2 (&3), Starcraft 1. Titan Quest had a good miminal UI ... but anyway.

The problem with the current UI is it is not very uniform. I like the decision to go with a more solid UI rather than various obtuse elements on the screen,

A couple of problems I can see with the all-on-the-bottom UI is you've got some dead space that could be used, in between the printer and the action bar/portraits - the wires look cool, but the action bar can be moved across to the right more.

All of the Fallout games had the dialogue window on the left side of the screen, and I believe the reason for this is because that humans tend to look at the right side of things (stuff towards their left eye) way more than the left side of things. Microsoft Word, Excel etc is all left aligned. The start bar on Windows is to the left of the screen, webpages usually have a left-aligned or centered UI - there is a reason for this. It is something that is mentioned often in film and web design (Josh Sawyer disagrees however, haha).

The random buttons sticking out from the weapon are another bad point, they could easily be combined with the weapon function buttons on the right of the weapon screen.

What is that 15 for by the way?

 

[LeStryfe79]

Anyone pretending Fargo didn't purposely deceive us is a fanboy or a troll.

Anyone pretending Fargo purposely deceived us is a shitposter or a troll.

I never attribute to malice what could be adequately explained by incompetence.

I never attribute to smugness what could be adequately explained by pancakes.

 

[Grunker]

So one thing I'd love to hear - especially from those critical of the HUD - give us some examples of game UIs you did love, and cite specifically what you loved about them. Name your games or give us screenshots. That would be some great input to have as we continue tinkering with it.

All the games that have good UI's IMO have solid, uniform and symmetrical UI's. I liked the Infinity Engine game UIs, Fallout Tactics, Warcraft 2 (&3), Starcraft 1. Titan Quest had a good miminal UI ... but anyway.

The problem with the current UI is it is not very uniform. I like the decision to go with a more solid UI rather than various obtuse elements on the screen

My own words:

Modern interfaces are mostly floaty, scrolly pieces of shit that look like it's made by website designers

Less floaty, more solid. Less scrolling, more grids. Less assymetry, more symmetry. It is fine if the UI takes up more a lot of the screen contrary to what modern design philosophy seems to dictate; the UI is hugely important, especially in games like these - why must this not be reflected in its presence on the screen? Because of IMMERSHUN? Please.

 

[Excidium]

Waiting for Obsidian to come out as lying cunts now.

 

[Infinitron]

Waiting for Obsidian to come out as lying cunts now.

Haha, what you need to ask yourself is whether there's going to be one single major Kickstarter title with physical rewards that's NOT going to use the services of a distribution partner.

In other words, get used to the lying.

 

[Excidium]

Haha, what you need to ask yourself is whether there's going to be one single major Kickstarter title with physical rewards that's NOT going to use the services of a distribution partner.

In other words, get used to the lying.

It's not the use of publisher that bothers me, I don't care if it's useful and saves money and time. It's Fargo demonizing publishers during the campaign to seduce the gullible anti-publisher "indies are the future" crowd. He probably wanted to use a publisher all along, why not be honest?

 

[Sensuki]

 

[Vault Dweller]

Saying that not everyone agrees with you is being considered arrogant now?

No, claiming I ignore arguments is.

We had a lengthy debate about it where I and many other people who had a similar opinion explained their position in details and answered your questions. This position can be summed as:

- it was never about LA signing a deal with a publisher; it was about delaying the next week release for 2 months and giving a big 'fuck you' to the backers just to make a deal with a publisher. While it is their right to make any deal they want, they should have honored their obligation to the backers and released the game as promised.

The situation with inXile isn't even close and I disagree that Fargo is to blame for it. Yet, after all this, you say: "...believe in Kickstarter or no, this belief that developers are lying to their consumers by hiring people to do shit for them (which is was Vault Dweller complained about with Logic Artists...", which comes off as completely ignoring my arguments, putting fingers in your ears and going la-la-la-I'm-not-listening.

 

[coffeetable]

Haha, what you need to ask yourself is whether there's going to be one single major Kickstarter title with physical rewards that's NOT going to use the services of a distribution partner.

In other words, get used to the lying.

It's not the use of publisher that bothers me, I don't care if it's useful and saves money and time. It's Fargo demonizing publishers during the campaign to seduce the gullible anti-publisher "indies are the future" crowd. He probably wanted to use a publisher all along, why not be honest?

Wait, so what makes Obsidian "cunts" then? They've done their damnedest to avoid slagging off publishers because they fully intend to take AAA work again.

 

[Excidium]

I don't know. They can always come up with some bullshit they kept hidden from people to keep the money flowing in.

Although Obsidian has been far more open than any of those big kickstarters, Sawyer has p. much an open channel.

 

[Sensuki]

left sided derp mspaint UI mockup

 

[Grunker]

Haha, what you need to ask yourself is whether there's going to be one single major Kickstarter title with physical rewards that's NOT going to use the services of a distribution partner.

In other words, get used to the lying.

It's not the use of publisher that bothers me, I don't care if it's useful and saves money and time. It's Fargo demonizing publishers during the campaign to seduce the gullible anti-publisher "indies are the future" crowd. He probably wanted to use a publisher all along, why not be honest?

What in the distinction between "holds developer's life in their hands as they have the funding" and "payed by developers to perform a service" is so hard to understand?

Seriously. I cannot for the life of me fathom why demonizing publishers with full creative control and using them for simple distribution is wrong?

The entire point of demonizing them in the first place was that they should only be distributors and marketers! How can using them for exactly that purpose be hypocritical?

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Excidium]

Haha, what you need to ask yourself is whether there's going to be one single major Kickstarter title with physical rewards that's NOT going to use the services of a distribution partner.

In other words, get used to the lying.

It's not the use of publisher that bothers me, I don't care if it's useful and saves money and time. It's Fargo demonizing publishers during the campaign to seduce the gullible anti-publisher "indies are the future" crowd. He probably wanted to use a publisher all along, why not be honest?

What in the distinction between "holds developer's life in their hands as they have the funding" and "payed by developers to perform a service" is so hard to understand?

Seriously. I cannot for the life of me fathom why demonizing publishers with full creative control and using them for simple distribution (like you said should be their only job) is wrong?

Because he didn't mention it during the campaign precisely because he knew some people would be turned off by it.

 

[dunno lah]

left sided derp mspaint UI mockup

Try swapping char portraits and action bar positions pls?

 

[Grunker]

Haha, what you need to ask yourself is whether there's going to be one single major Kickstarter title with physical rewards that's NOT going to use the services of a distribution partner.

In other words, get used to the lying.

It's not the use of publisher that bothers me, I don't care if it's useful and saves money and time. It's Fargo demonizing publishers during the campaign to seduce the gullible anti-publisher "indies are the future" crowd. He probably wanted to use a publisher all along, why not be honest?

What in the distinction between "holds developer's life in their hands as they have the funding" and "payed by developers to perform a service" is so hard to understand?

Seriously. I cannot for the life of me fathom why demonizing publishers with full creative control and using them for simple distribution (like you said should be their only job) is wrong?

Because he didn't mention it during the campaign precisely because he knew some people would be turned off by it.

Hmm.

I will say one thing though: You reap as you sow. While I believe anyone claiming the deal with Deep Silver is breach of anything said during the Kickstarter to be utterly wrong, Fargo is to blame himself for the fact that people jump the gun on this one. If you preach that all publishers are evil, people rightly raise their brow when you start making distribution deals. With more foresight, Fargo would have written some kind of distribution-disclaimer back then that he could re-quote now to prove to everyone that he hasn't flip-flopped on anything.

Ok
http://www.eurogamer.de/articles/2012-09-27-brian-fargo-von-wasteland-zu-wasteland-2?page=2
Eurogamer: The funding of Wasteland 2 proved to be a great success. What does this mean for your and inXile's future regarding the possibility of working with a big publisher again?

Brian Fargo: I have been pretty vocal in my goal of building a standalone company that produces RPG's again. I love every part of this process and I hope I am able to continue doing this for many years. Most every developer wants the creative and financial control of a company like Valve. However there will be times in which we may do business with a publisher but that is different than being financed and produced by a publisher. For example we may want to support XBOX someday in which case we have no choice but to use a publihser's distribution to gain access.

PS: Xbox is a p extreme example but you do need a publisher to get on XBLA, inXile has had to do that before for Choplifter HD, so it's an example Brian has experience with.

 

[Excidium]

Random interview on german eurogamer. I'm sure a lot of people saw that. How about clarifying something important like that in the actual kickstarter page during the campaign (at the risk of people going full knee jerk at the mention of publishers)?

 

[Sensuki]

Try swapping char portraits and action bar positions pls?

Wasn't finished yet.

UI CUSTOMIZATION

 

[Grunker]

Random interview on german eurogamer. I'm sure a lot of people saw that. How about clarifying something important like that in the actual kickstarter page during the campaign (at the risk of people going full knee jerk at the mention of publishers)?

I quoted my own post as well deliberately. I do believe it's his own fault that people rage about this, I just don't believe there's anything to rage about.