Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Ninjerk]

Yeah, I've been a bad boy.

EDIT: Haha, I just realized how that looks. I'm going to start misquoting people more often.

 

[shihonage]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...wledge-gender-discrimination/#comment-1321982

As a multiple minority, I am very dubious of this discrimination angle. The article and quotes didn’t delve into the subject and how it’ll be represented in-game enough for me to put my wariness aside. I play games as escapism and entertainment and power fantasy, much like everyone else; I don’t play games to have real world bigotry and ‘you are The Other’/'you are hated’ reminders thrown at me, as I get that enough in daily real life and society.

Game worlds of fantasy and sci-fi do not need to subscribe to Earthbound ideals and our human history and prejudices — because they are not Earth and they are not our human reality, no matter how much ‘grit’ and realism and similarities one puts into it. The moment dragons or radiation megascorpions or magic or medical foam curealls etc. come into play, it’s not reality no matter how one parses it. Keeping the prejudices and social morality aspects of our human cultures and history isn’t high on my list of things worth retaining for a game.

I am not against reactive NPCs and having your gender/sex/personality/race/whatever acknowledged, but I’d rather the acknowledgements be of neutral or positive ways rather than any negative ones. I lack confidence that the subjects can be handled well. The thing is, our games are commonly written for that ‘default straight (white) male.’ How often do you run into heterophobia or racism against caucasians or men being looked down upon for being the weaker sex/for being a ‘hey sweetheart’ predatory sexual advance (with it being something other than narrated from a positive fetishized ‘oh baby, take advantage of me!’ light, but actual intimidation and threat)? Moreover, our reality does not have these things commonly either. So while it may be a novelty in-game, there is no real-world wariness and negative resonance associated like there would be for a real world minority. Bumping into sexism/misogyny, racism, homophobia, or outright exclusiveness by erasure (aka no non-white or non-straight or women characters in the world etc) is quite common in games. And again, as someone that experiences the negatives in real life, I’d rather not have social negatives reminded/reinforced in our fictional/fantasy/non-reality games.

"my feeeeeeeeeeelings!"

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...wledge-gender-discrimination/#comment-1321982

As a multiple minority, I am very dubious of this discrimination angle. The article and quotes didn’t delve into the subject and how it’ll be represented in-game enough for me to put my wariness aside. I play games as escapism and entertainment and power fantasy, much like everyone else; I don’t play games to have real world bigotry and ‘you are The Other’/'you are hated’ reminders thrown at me, as I get that enough in daily real life and society.

Game worlds of fantasy and sci-fi do not need to subscribe to Earthbound ideals and our human history and prejudices — because they are not Earth and they are not our human reality, no matter how much ‘grit’ and realism and similarities one puts into it. The moment dragons or radiation megascorpions or magic or medical foam curealls etc. come into play, it’s not reality no matter how one parses it. Keeping the prejudices and social morality aspects of our human cultures and history isn’t high on my list of things worth retaining for a game.

I am not against reactive NPCs and having your gender/sex/personality/race/whatever acknowledged, but I’d rather the acknowledgements be of neutral or positive ways rather than any negative ones. I lack confidence that the subjects can be handled well. The thing is, our games are commonly written for that ‘default straight (white) male.’ How often do you run into heterophobia or racism against caucasians or men being looked down upon for being the weaker sex/for being a ‘hey sweetheart’ predatory sexual advance (with it being something other than narrated from a positive fetishized ‘oh baby, take advantage of me!’ light, but actual intimidation and threat)? Moreover, our reality does not have these things commonly either. So while it may be a novelty in-game, there is no real-world wariness and negative resonance associated like there would be for a real world minority. Bumping into sexism/misogyny, racism, homophobia, or outright exclusiveness by erasure (aka no non-white or non-straight or women characters in the world etc) is quite common in games. And again, as someone that experiences the negatives in real life, I’d rather not have social negatives reminded/reinforced in our fictional/fantasy/non-reality games.

"my feeeeeeeeeeelings!"

That picture is vaguely familiar? some undomesticated snowmen who doesn't offend anyone? can't recall from where though.

 

[shihonage]

It's "The Human Being", a gender-neutral mascot of Greendale College from TV show "Community".

 

[slackerwizrd]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...wledge-gender-discrimination/#comment-1321982
"my feeeeeeeeeeelings!"

Developers don't inject realism into their games because their sexist bigots. They do so because players desire it. As long as discrimination exists in reality, it'll exist in games. If one is so sensitive to realism in video games - violence, sex, discrimination, and etc., then maybe you should stick with games that cater to your desires.

Additionally, I don't understand how absence of discrimination (or whatever else) would enhance a video game. It'll be like I'm playing a game in Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood.

 

[Commissar Draco]

I am Legion multiple minority.

 

[Roguey]

Devi's cool.

Looks like a whiny faggot to me

Yes that is a thing someone with a great amount of privilege would say.

 

[LeJosh]

What does that even mean?

 

[felipepepe]

Yes that is a thing someone with a great amount of privilege would say.

Let me check:

Ok, so Latino, from a thirdworldian country that don't even appear on the fucking chart, following a religion also don't appear, Poor.

Okay, I'm non-priviledged! :D

Looks like a whiny faggot to me

100% agreed, fellow non-privileged BR bro.

 

[Roguey]

Ok, so Latino, from a thirdworldian country that don't even appear on the fucking chart, following a religion also don't appear, Poor.

Okay, I'm non-priviledged! :D

That image is nonsense.

Also it's totally possible for a non-privileged person to internalize a lot of awful shit.

 

[felipepepe]

Also it's totally possible for a non-privileged person to internalize a lot of awful shit.

Obviously, meaning that just accusing others of being privileged don't mean absolutely nothing... it's just a cheap trick of social crusaders, exploiting white guilt.

 

[undecaf]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...wledge-gender-discrimination/#comment-1321982

As a multiple minority, I am very dubious of this discrimination angle. The article and quotes didn’t delve into the subject and how it’ll be represented in-game enough for me to put my wariness aside. I play games as escapism and entertainment and power fantasy, much like everyone else; I don’t play games to have real world bigotry and ‘you are The Other’/'you are hated’ reminders thrown at me, as I get that enough in daily real life and society.

Game worlds of fantasy and sci-fi do not need to subscribe to Earthbound ideals and our human history and prejudices — because they are not Earth and they are not our human reality, no matter how much ‘grit’ and realism and similarities one puts into it. The moment dragons or radiation megascorpions or magic or medical foam curealls etc. come into play, it’s not reality no matter how one parses it. Keeping the prejudices and social morality aspects of our human cultures and history isn’t high on my list of things worth retaining for a game.

I am not against reactive NPCs and having your gender/sex/personality/race/whatever acknowledged, but I’d rather the acknowledgements be of neutral or positive ways rather than any negative ones. I lack confidence that the subjects can be handled well. The thing is, our games are commonly written for that ‘default straight (white) male.’ How often do you run into heterophobia or racism against caucasians or men being looked down upon for being the weaker sex/for being a ‘hey sweetheart’ predatory sexual advance (with it being something other than narrated from a positive fetishized ‘oh baby, take advantage of me!’ light, but actual intimidation and threat)? Moreover, our reality does not have these things commonly either. So while it may be a novelty in-game, there is no real-world wariness and negative resonance associated like there would be for a real world minority. Bumping into sexism/misogyny, racism, homophobia, or outright exclusiveness by erasure (aka no non-white or non-straight or women characters in the world etc) is quite common in games. And again, as someone that experiences the negatives in real life, I’d rather not have social negatives reminded/reinforced in our fictional/fantasy/non-reality games.

"my feeeeeeeeeeelings!"

I wish these people would learn how to handle fiction and their emotions. This is such a fucking boring thing to be upset about.

 

[Roguey]

Also it's totally possible for a non-privileged person to internalize a lot of awful shit.

Obviously, meaning that just accusing others of being privileged don't mean absolutely nothing... it's just a cheap trick of social crusaders, exploiting white guilt.

A person with unchecked privilege is incapable of feeling guilt because they feel as though they've done nothing wrong. As Gaider has noted, privilege is when you don't think something's a problem because it's not a problem for you.

 

[Rake]

Devi's cool.

Looks like a whiny faggot to me

Yes that is a thing someone with a great amount of privilege would say.

Nope. That is what he would say:

Why can't those people just reach a high enough level of self-hate and depression to consider suicide

And he has a very good point. If your emotional stability depends on a fucking video game, your life cannot be very happy. Just end it. Or go to an asylum, you need the help.

 

[Infinitron]

Also it's totally possible for a non-privileged person to internalize a lot of awful shit.

Obviously, meaning that just accusing others of being privileged don't mean absolutely nothing... it's just a cheap trick of social crusaders, exploiting white guilt.

A person with unchecked privilege is incapable of feeling guilt because they feel as though they've done nothing wrong. As Gaider has noted, privilege is when you don't think something's a problem because it's not a problem for you.

How simplistic and binary. Is something merely "a problem" or "not a problem"?

How about if you think that something isn't a big problem? What if you think the good outweights the bad?

 

[Stainless Veteran]

As Gaider has noted, privilege is when you don't think something's a problem because it's not a problem for you.

Oh, well, if Gaider has noted it, then that's certainly must be the truth.

 

[felipepepe]

As Gaider has noted, privilege is when you don't think something's a problem because it's not a problem for you.

That is such a horrible definition... so, if I dismiss this as ridiculous:

Then I'm a privileged asshole, living in a comfy 2-inch hole that even the worst wi-fi router can cover?

 

[Roguey]

I refuse to address made-up examples.

How simplistic and binary. Is something merely "a problem" or "not a problem"?

How about if you think that something isn't a big problem? What if you think the good outweights the bad?

"Good enough is good enough" leads to mediocrity in all things.

 

[I_am_Ian]

Fuck off, Roguey, I hope you get stung by a bee today.

 

[Infinitron]

I refuse to address made-up examples.

How simplistic and binary. Is something merely "a problem" or "not a problem"?

How about if you think that something isn't a big problem? What if you think the good outweights the bad?

"Good enough is good enough" leads to mediocrity in all things.

Heh, we can trade aphorisms all day if that's what you want. But I doubt you have anything more constructive to say.

 

[Rake]

Heh, we can trade aphorisms all day if that's what you want. But I doubt know you have nothing more constructive to say.

Fixed.
When had Roguey something constructive to say in that matter?
Unless you consider Lesi's derangement as "constructive"

 

[FeelTheRads]

privilege is when you don't think something's a problem because it's not a problem for you.

So just thinking stuff makes you privileged. Maybe you activists should learn to read.

Btw, if only thinking makes you privileged then not only white people are privileged, are they? Or are they the only ones thinking evil thoughts?

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Lol, its privileged people who bitch about how discrimination in video games makes them offended...

i tell them, grow the fuck up. if they can't swallow a bit of fiction due to your repressed self loathing... they don't deserve to live.

 

[Brother None]

I don't really think it has to do with privileged or unprivileged, I think the disjoint for Devija comes from how she goes into a videogame: she wants to be entertained, but not challenged, it is escapism, not meant to be thought-provoking. That's how she wishes to consume the genre and as far as I'm concerned, that's fine...but that's not what we're doing. Don't go into Wasteland 2 expecting to be mollycoddled or for the game to go out of its way to not offend you, we're not making a game here where our goal is to hit the widest possible audience and so we're bending over backwards to not offend anyone. It's an unpleasant world and you'll run into unpleasant situations. If you play videogames purely for escapism and power fantasies and hate to run into anything unpleasant (whether it to be political or violence or minorities-related), then the game is probably not for you. As far as I can gauge, that's the real problem Devija has here, so I don't think she's our audience. And that's fine. She can play the kind of games she likes, power-fantasies and escapism that avoid these topics entirely, and we'll make the kind of games we want to make.

Not much of an issue there that I can see. Her preferences are as valid as anyone's, but not every game has to please every person. So this one's not for her. Eh. So it goes.

On the other hand, freedom is emphasized. If someone is being a misogynist dick to you, end the dialog and shoot him (or her) in the face.

 

[Blaine]

Oprah Winfrey: -10 (+40 if you add "influential celebrity" as a +50 Profession)

Short, ugly, fat, straight white male working at McDonald's: +70

Seems an accurate representation of social justice retards' system of measuring privilege. (I've seen this chart before, it's fun to play around with.)