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Wasteland Wasteland 2 Thread - Director's Cut

Sigourn

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You can also kick/hit some of them open.

But this must be the moment where one thinks "Fallout must've started from 3."

Last time I checked, the Fallout you are talking about isn't being made anymore and it's a relic from a bygone age.

Fallout is Bethesda's now. And everything Fallout knows about is "lockpick the door or leave it behind". What FO1 and FO2 did doesn't mean shit because they are the exception to the norm (ironically they truly are, since it's 3 3D games against 2 isometric titles).
 

undecaf

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Last time I checked, the Fallout you are talking about doesn't exist anymore, does it?

Fallout is Bethesda's now. And everything Fallout knows about is "lockpick the door or leave it behind".

Don't contribute to decline by ignoring the past. Soon you'll start accepting it, and that's a black hole you'll never get out of.
 

Sigourn

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Don't contribute to decline by ignoring the past.

Saying the truth doesn't constitute incline or decline. It's just stating the facts.

Wasteland 2 is a game from 2015 and it must be compared to contemporary games. And the contemporary Fallout series could learn a lot from it, but it won't.

One gives you many ways to tackle a locked door. The other just gives you one.
 

Sigourn

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Nice edit, but sometimes it's best to just stop digging.

It's saying basically the same thing: the Fallout philosophy of old just doesn't exist, in other words, a Fallout game following that philosophy just isn't being made anymore.

And I made that edit before I saw undecaf's reply.

If you want to argue that the Fallout series can't learn from Wasteland 2, good for you. I live in the present, where Fallout is a terrible roleplaying franchise. And everything it does, Wasteland 2 does more, and better.
 

Sigourn

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Wasteland 2 is a game from 2015

2014.

:troll:

6ltHGR4.gif
 

Rpgsaurus Rex

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The thing I liked the most was failing a lockpick attempt, being able to use repair, and then try again. It's so simple yet so amazing.

The distinction between Safecracking and Lockpicking really called my attention. Well, basically everything in the game drew my attention: being able to break doors open, shoot doors open, blow doors open, or lockpicking them. A shame the Fallout games only know of "lockpick the door or leave it behind".

You could use explosives or weapons to 'open' locks in Fallout too.
 

Endemic

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Philosophy? More like a shitty engine that needs loading screens for every building.
 

Sigourn

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Balance is more important than your desire for more ways to open a locked door.

It's a stupid kind of balance, though. A fake balance, if you will, since it makes it so that you can't literally open a door that's locked "just because". There were easy ways to compensate for that, and modders have already done it themselves: being able to break open, shoot open, or blow open containers has a chance of you destroying its contents. Also, forcing a door open should draw the attention of NPCs, but the AI on these games is so terrible the NPCs don't give two shits about noise.

Just like lockpicking is useful in real life, it will be useful in videogames. And likewise with explosives, guns, and breaking things open. Lockpicking should be a stealth measure just like Sneak is, not the only fucking way to open doors and containers. That's just stupid and a sign of a lazy developer.

It's also the reason why stealth sucks in the current Fallout games. It's terribly implemented, unlike in Thief: TDP, which is a 20 year old game ffs.
 

Roguey

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being able to break open, shoot open, or blow open containers has a chance of you destroying its contents.

"Players will reload,"--Josh Sawyer

Also, forcing a door open should draw the attention of NPCs

"The kind of player character who runs around with guns and explosives will not care about this because everyone will already be dead"--Josh Sawyer
 

Sigourn

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being able to break open, shoot open, or blow open containers has a chance of you destroying its contents.

"Players will reload,"--Josh Sawyer

Also, forcing a door open should draw the attention of NPCs

"The kind of player character who runs around with guns and explosives will not care about this because everyone will already be dead"--Josh Sawyer

Fucking Josh Sawyer.
 

Fenix

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Well, here he is right.
Basically things that described by word "ideal" doesn't exist in material world.
So every game has its flaws.
Deus Ex has unbreakable doors, not all but still, and yet it is a brilliant game.
 

Grotesque

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You can also kick/hit some of them open.

But this must be the moment where one thinks "Fallout must've started from 3."

But that's a good thing, right!
Because 3 is the perfect number: is has a beginning, middle and end :)
 

Sigourn

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Well, here he is right.
Basically things that described by word "ideal" doesn't exist in material world.
So every game has its flaws.
Deus Ex has unbreakable doors, not all but still, and yet it is a brilliant game.

While I understand the concept, Sawyer is still wrong here.

"Players will reload" is a terrible excuse. Players already reload in New Vegas and in plenty of other games. He would be basically saying "yeah, let's make this easier and dumber just so people don't reload". BULLSHIT, you can even reload in Rogue if you manage your saves.

"The kind of player character who runs around with guns and explosives will not care about this because everyone will already be dead" is terrible too, this wouldn't happen if developers were good at designing encounters, and combat was brutal and fast so that the player could die.

There really isn't any reason to Sneak in New Vegas because every encounter is piss easy. It is not Thief, where sneaking makes a huge difference. In few words: all I suggested would work if the game was made for a "hardcore" audience, not for console casual babies. :tipsfedora:
 

Roguey

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"Players will reload" is a terrible excuse. Players already reload in New Vegas and in plenty of other games. He would be basically saying "yeah, let's make this easier and dumber just so people don't reload". BULLSHIT, you can even reload in Rogue if you manage your saves.

Josh is against having mechanics in his games that encourage reloading, performing the same actions, and getting a different result solely because of the RNG. He's not against the idea of reloading.

"The kind of player character who runs around with guns and explosives will not care about this because everyone will already be dead" is terrible too, this wouldn't happen if developers were good at designing encounters, and combat was brutal and fast so that the player could die.

This runs contrary to his goals in New Vegas, and certainly doesn't describe any Fallout game or Wasteland 2.

There really isn't any reason to Sneak in New Vegas because every encounter is piss easy. It is not Thief, where sneaking makes a huge difference. In few words: all I suggested would work if the game was made for a "hardcore" audience, not for console casual babies. :tipsfedora:

Sneaking is quite useful in New Vegas on account of sneak attack crits and getting past things if you just don't want to fight them (e.g. taking the shortcuts to New Vegas at the beginning, where no, you will not survive those encounters against deathclaws and cazadores. You're not exactly swimming in stealth boys at the beginning either, though you can get at least two to help out with that)
 

Sigourn

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Josh is against having mechanics in his games that encourage reloading, performing the same actions, and getting a different result solely because of the RNG. He's not against the idea of reloading.

I understand that to you these may be different things, but what you said is easily translated as "I don't want players reloading because of mechanics", hence "against reloading".

Of course, I'm not trying to imply that Sawyer is against people reloading a game after dying. But people reload all the time, for different things. The Magazines in New Vegas are a perfect example of reloading fodder: you can't know for certain when to use magazines in dialogue checks, so people will likely reload after failing a check and realizing they could have read a magazine beforehand, which ruins the experience. Not to mention I believe magazines have no place in a series like Fallout, because that's what they essentially are. And they don't make any sense either: do I read the magazine and then it goes *poof*? It's a continuation of Bethesda's practice of giving the player tons of stat boosting items and apparel.

Lockpicking and hacking minigames also encourage reloading, if you are a moron who can't get them right, of course.

This runs contrary to his goals in New Vegas, and certainly doesn't describe any Fallout game or Wasteland 2.

And what were those? All I saw was a better RPG, but still a fundamentally boring videogame outside of conversations.

Regarding the second part, it's easy to notice why: Fallout is a fairly easy game, and Wasteland 2 has you command an entire group of Rangers. If you could only use one player (verifiable) the game would be extremely hard. Even more so considering the game is tailored around a group of Rangers with vastly different skill sets that make it much harder.

Sneaking is quite useful in New Vegas on account of sneak attack crits and getting past things if you just don't want to fight them (e.g. taking the shortcuts to New Vegas at the beginning, where no, you will not survive those encounters against deathclaws and cazadores. You're not exactly swimming in stealth boys at the beginning either, though you can get at least two to help out with that)

I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but: sneaking is not even useful in the same manner as it is in Thief when I play with a bunch of difficulty mods on top of New Vegas. It certainly isn't "useful" at all when every encounter in the vanilla game is easy as hell. Again, this is because the main goal of sneaking in a game should be disposing of enemies that would overwhelm you, and be able to pass by enemies without drawing unwanted attention that would kill you. In New Vegas and in pretty much every Bethesda game, sneaking is literally a "stealthy archer" gameplay gimmick, the most interesting way to play the game (except it's only cool in Skyrim). Never did I feel Sneaking was actually useful, except in the one mission of the game where I must remain undetected (stealing the Gun Runner's specifications).

TL;DR

How sneaking works in New Vegas:

- Kill enemies silently because it is more fun.
- If you don't sneak, nothing bad really happens.
- Sneaking is useful if you want to avoid boring fights and have a fun time.

How it should work in New Vegas and every other game ever made:

- Killing multiple enemies silently is a necessity to avoid death.
- If you don't sneak, you better be prepared for a difficult fight, as it should be expected from a one vs five men situation.
- Sneaking is useful if you want to survive, just like in Thief.
 

Roguey

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I understand that to you these may be different things, but what you said is easily translated as "I don't want players reloading because of mechanics", hence "against reloading".

If you ignore all context, yeah.

Of course, I'm not trying to imply that Sawyer is against people reloading a game after dying. But people reload all the time, for different things. The Magazines in New Vegas are a perfect example of reloading fodder: you can't know for certain when to use magazines in dialogue checks, so people will likely reload after failing a check and realizing they could have read a magazine beforehand, which ruins the experience. Not to mention I believe magazines have no place in a series like Fallout, because that's what they essentially are. And they don't make any sense either: do I read the magazine and then it goes *poof*? It's a continuation of Bethesda's practice of giving the player tons of stat boosting items and apparel.

Josh is in favor of including consumables and items that increase stats and skills, as shown in Pillars of Eternity. It allows for a bit of flexibility in what you can do.

Lockpicking and hacking minigames also encourage reloading, if you are a moron who can't get them right, of course.

You have to retry the minigame, which is now different. That's fine. Doing the same thing and getting a different result is what he's against.

And what were those?

"My goal was to increment the difficulty above Fallout 3 without taking such a large step that F3 fans would be unable or unwilling to adapt."

How it should work in New Vegas and every other game ever made:

- Killing multiple enemies silently is a necessity to avoid death.
- If you don't sneak, you better be prepared for a difficult fight, as it should be expected from a one vs five men situation.
- Sneaking is useful if you want to survive, just like in Thief.

This would reduce the number of viable playstyles and character builds, and it wouldn't feel like Fallout. "A Fallout game should feel like Fallout"--Josh Sawyer
 

Sigourn

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Josh is in favor of including consumables and items that increase stats and skills, as shown in Pillars of Eternity. It allows for a bit of flexibility in what you can do.

It also makes your build significantly less important when you can simply slap some new clothes or armor into yourself, or read some magazines.

You have to retry the minigame, which is now different. That's fine. Doing the same thing and getting a different result is what he's against.

I must see Sawyer say this to my face to know this is true so I can laugh at his opinion. The guy is all in for making a worse RPG if it means people don't have to reload...

"My goal was to increment the difficulty above Fallout 3 without taking such a large step that F3 fans would be unable or unwilling to adapt."

I should have expected this.

This would reduce the number of viable playstyles and character builds

I don't see how that is a problem if you design a game from scratch with that mentality.

Of course, Fallout: New Vegas is a terrible example since it's basically bullets flying all the time in a lot of locations.
 

Roguey

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It also makes your build significantly less important when you can simply slap some new clothes or armor into yourself, or read some magazines.

Unless you're specifically building a character that can do everything (which can also be done in the original Fallouts), you won't be able to do everything.

I must see Sawyer say this to my face to know this is true so I can laugh at his opinion. The guy is all in for making a worse RPG if it means people don't have to reload...

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 

Sigourn

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Unless you're specifically building a character that can do everything (which can also be done in the original Fallouts), you won't be able to do everything.

You are saying that... like it is a bad thing. For the record, I'm all in for replayability as long as the game is replayable. Some people think a few skill checks constitute replayabiility, but to me that's not enough if I'm essentially doing the same quests all over again.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Feel free. I'm pretty sure I understand what you mean, I just don't agree with it. But maybe you could explain it better so that we will agree.
 

Roguey

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Feel free. I'm pretty sure I understand what you mean, I just don't agree with it. But maybe you could explain it better so that we will agree.

You reload because you, the player, failed: encouraged.
You reload because the RNG screwed you, and you succeed the next time despite doing nothing differently: discouraged.
 

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