Wasteland Wasteland 2, what gone wrong? [SPOILERS]

[Infinitron]

Of course they were, you had God knows how many public iterations of the Ui, you had doctored screen shots not representative of actual game play released to backers, you had promises California would be everything Arizona was not. So many little things plaguing the development process that added up to a lot of community bad will.

A better run project wouldn't expose itself to this stuff, they would have been more open with the backers.

Public iterations of the UI worked on by one single guy who was also doing a whole bunch of other things at the same time. That's cheap.

It sounds like what you really have a problem with is that they didn't manage their PR well enough.

I don't think the issues aren't specific features or elements, like the lack of open world, or the tunnels, or the keywords.

OK, but I think some people might disagree with you on that!

The issue is the implementation: finding the best way to implement a keyword system, for example.

I don't disagree that Wasteland 2's implementation has issues, but usually when a game gets a poor reception on forums like these, it's just as much or more "they didn't make the game I wanted" than it is "they made the game I wanted, but poorly".

Although it is almost always a mix of these two things - it's psychologically more expedient to nitpick a game's implementation when it doesn't provide the basic experience you were expecting. Again, I am sure you're quite aware of this with AoD.

 

[hiver]

They never really wanted to take in any more serious input. Thats why their forums were ruled by conforming morons, while anyone who suggested anything that made the almighty dev ideas look bad was trolled, screamed at and insulted until they left or got banned or just stopped posting.

This is the cheap shit you get when you listen to infinitrons of the world, who have no idea what original Fallout games were or what were their real quality features. (not that anyone really wanted another Fallout, except maybe a very few misguided people - another strawman)

Sadly, I'm starting to doubt that the community helped to the game's quality; since some of the most glaring "weird decisions" are features that people at the inXile forums actually wanted as far as I'm concerned, like floating filling icons appearing while a skill is being used, non-cosmetic armor and a game's balance that makes the player get through opening an insane amount of containers.

Inconsequential small details.

The real problems lie in quest structure, false, cheap C&C, nonsense scenarios and design of locations who barely have any connection with each other and when they do its really stupid.


The real problem was that inXile only "listened" to backers who were nothing more then conformists and who praised and "defended" the devs from any criticism.

The problem was that they communicated more with game media then their own backers, selling hype.

 

[DeepOcean]

I can think on a thousand of ways how to make this game better and I'm not speaking of revolutionary stuff, things like adding an attack mode to machine guns where they change damage for crowd control, maybe even with a cone of fire with a chance to apply a - speed debuff and stop those annoying melee enemies into reaching you in one turn or applying accuracy defuff, making machine guns a defensive and enemy supression weapon instead of competing with assault rifles for damage . They could even add a status effect called supressed to make machine guns different.

Making you have to spend AP to open your inventory or changing weapon and if you are on crouched position, melee enemies can do automatic critical strikes if you are caught unless you have a sidearm like a handgun to pull out (on this case, handguns require way less AP to pull than an assault rifle.). Anyone that is caught hiding behind cover or crouched should be raped by melee specialists.

Crouching should give a bigger bonus against ranged fire unless at a closer distance where the bonus lose effect and non melee enemies, on lack of cover, should be adept of that too, making long range fire an option but unnacurate as fuck.

Don't make gunslingers and shotgunners suicidal by charging you when you have assault rifles, when carrying a pistol or shotguns, make them flee and hide on cover waiting for you, make them cautious and more defensive, forcing you to waste a whole clip of rifle ammo to kill them or turn around with a melee/SMG/shotgunner guy to kill them more efficiently.

Some of those ideas can be even dumb as I thought them on 10 mins but I really don't know why InXile let the game out of the beta the way it was... I don't think you are supposed to have beta testers yelling at you to make you self aware of the quality of your product. Sure... they can give feedback on some areas but you should know about the status of your core gameplay without needing people yelling the obvious to you.

I think this notion that somehow only the codex knows this hermetic RPG stuff and a professional game designer was a poor guy that didn't know it better and needed to be yelled at to be aware of that really strange. You don't need to be a RPG expert to know that the combat on Wasteland 2 is mediocre and sleep inducing, you just need to have common sense.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Public iterations of the UI worked on by one single guy who was also doing a whole bunch of other things at the same time. That's cheap.

It sounds like what you really have a problem with is that they didn't manage their PR well enough.



OK, but I think some people might disagree with you on that!



I don't disagree that Wasteland 2's implementation has issues, but usually when a game gets a poor reception on forums like these, it's just as much or more "they didn't make the game I wanted" than it is "they made the game I wanted, but poorly".

Although it is almost always a mix of these two things - it's psychologically more expedient to nitpick a game's implementation when it doesn't provide the basic experience you were expecting. Again, I am sure you're quite aware of this with AoD.

Oh, I have a problem with much more than their PR. Fortunately, they seem to have learned a lesson or 2 and torment is being better managed in that regard.

 

[Cazzeris]

They never really wanted to take in any more serious input. Thats why their forums were ruled by conforming morons, while anyone who suggested anything that made the almighty dev ideas look bad was trolled, screamed at and insulted until they left or got banned or just stopped posting.

This is the cheap shit you get when you listen to infinitrons of the world, who have no idea what original Fallout games were or what were their real quality features. (not that anyone really wanted another Fallout, except maybe a very few misguided people - another strawman)

Inconsequential small details.

The real problems lie in quest structure, false, cheap C&C, nonsense scenarios and design of locations who barely have any connection with each other and when they do its really stupid.


The real problem was that inXile only "listened" to backers who were nothing more then conformists and who praised and "defended" the devs from any criticism.

The problem was that they communicated more with game media then their own backers, selling hype.

My concerns are still part of the problem, though. They are examples that show how the vision of larpers or people that can't tell how a fun RPG plays got a place in the game.

But I think we can both agree on what WL2 needed: a more direct way to listen to what the proper cRPG players wanted instead of following inXile's forum style where fanboys throw their shit to almost anything that doesn't get on well with their usually retarded excuses. Or just a proper knowledge on what a deep and well designed RPG needs to be acceptable, but I guess that can be applied to everything.

 

[Infinitron]

The "bad management" thing is just silly IMO. You're talking about a company going from nearly dead with ten employees left, to a credible RPG developer, in just two and half years. It could have been a lot worse. The fact that they managed to make a game that satisfied VD here, even after he was already predisposed against it after playing the beta, is a pretty significant victory. To draw a comparison, have a look at what Obsidian did in their first two years. KOTOR2 and NWN2 OC, eehhhhh. And that was with more money and more complete engines.

 

[felipepepe]

The "bad management" thing is just silly IMO. You're talking about a company going from nearly dead with ten employees left, to a credible RPG developer, in just two and half years.

Let's all ignore that Fargo is a millionaire and got more than 3 million dollars with no strings attached for W2 + 4 million for Torment. I'm pretty sure any company can strive by getting almost 8 million dollars as gift from nostalgic fans.

Also, KOTOR 2 is way better than W2.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's better written but not better designed.

Cons:
- RTwP (ok, it's not their fault, but it IS a slight against God, especially in a game with a third-person camera)
- Find 4 itams plot (ok, find 4 Jedi Masters, same shit; what's worse is that you do it regardless if you're good or evil)
- horribly unbalanced combat where you just kill things and have no reason to even upgrade your lightsaber unless killing them in 2 attacks rather than 3 is very important to you
- dat awful engine

Pros:
- Good writing, good characters
- doesn't have Bastila in it.

 

[felipepepe]

They were salvaging remains from BioWare... InXile had total control, every single bad choice in W2 is entirely on them.

Same criteria I use for PoE, Obsidian can't blame anyone now (although Sawyer already went "this isn't muh dream game... 'cause backers and stuffies" - fucking cop out).

 

[hiver]

My concerns are still part of the problem, though. They are examples that show how the vision of larpers or people that can't tell how a fun RPG plays got a place in the game.

But I think we can both agree on what WL2 needed: a more direct way to listen to what the proper cRPG players wanted instead of following inXile's forum style where fanboys throw their shit to almost anything that doesn't get on well with their usually retarded excuses. Or just a proper knowledge on what a deep and well designed RPG needs to be acceptable, but I guess that can be applied to everything.

I agree but if the rest of the game was good, then these smaller details wouldnt matter much or bother anyone more then such small details should.

Lets not forget that Fargo wanted to implement some sort of social features into the game, which was barely stopped - and that was one of his earlier ideas for some other past project.
And by the all accounts the drowning Ralphie was his direct idea... and i hope i dont need to get into what a fundamentally broken mess that is.


What Inxile really needed was any kind of a dev that actually had any experience with making RPGs. They didnt. all they had was their team that never worked on a single RPG. And they did not want it any other way.

 

[Kem0sabe]

The "bad management" thing is just silly IMO. You're talking about a company going from nearly dead with ten employees left, to a credible RPG developer, in just two and half years. It could have been a lot worse. The fact that they managed to make a game that satisfied VD here, even after he was already predisposed against it after playing the beta, is a pretty significant victory. To draw a comparison, have a look at what Obsidian did in their first two years. KOTOR2 and NWN2 OC, eehhhhh. And that was with more money and more complete engines.

It wasn't their top notch management skills that allowed them to make wl2, it was their backers, else they would still be doing mobile games. While successfully launching a KS campaign is admirable, many have done it without millionaire backing and name dropping.

Also, obsidian managed to released two of the most fan aclaimed rpgs of the era, kotor 2 and motb, while inxile released "meh the post apocalyptic rpg".

 

[DeepOcean]

The "bad management" thing is just silly IMO. You're talking about a company going from nearly dead with ten employees left, to a credible RPG developer, in just two and half years. It could have been a lot worse. The fact that they managed to make a game that satisfied VD here, even after he was already predisposed against it after playing the beta, is a pretty significant victory. To draw a comparison, have a look at what Obsidian did in their first two years. KOTOR2 and NWN2 OC, eehhhhh. And that was with more money and more complete engines.

You just forgot that both NWN 2 and KOTOR 2 were already funded and you knew what you were buying, you were buying a problematic RPG came out of development hell and a console RPG, kickstarter demands way more from developers and InXile had a contract with its backers that Obsidian didn't have. If people knew at that time what Wasteland 2 would be, many wouldn't have backed. It could be just the nature of kickstarter where you make a gamble but you can't mistake the relationship between backer and developer and consumer and developer. The backer has to be more demanding because he is buying a product on the future and the developer has to really improve his game as it can destroy the relationship with it's backers.

The reason why Wasteland 2 is this way it is because the the game designer didn't have a clue on what he was doing and Fargo should have placed someone that did on his place, the media, hype and scope side might have been good but the game design was terrible. I don't trust them anymore and I don't care if Obsidian fucked up, Inxile next kickstarter I will only buy on Steam and only if they remove the clown responsible for Wasteland 2 and place someone competent on the place.

I don't want to have again the same feeling of utterly boredom, having wasted my time and uther disgust for someone thinking my time was worth nothing after the first quest you do on California, plugging holes with wood while killing dog trash mobs as a boring as fuck black dude say to you to get 56 pounds of cat litter and just re do that fucking stupid activate three radio towers again... wow... that shit makes NWN 2 a masterpiece.

 

[hiver]

I can think on a thousand of ways how to make this game better and I'm not speaking of revolutionary stuff, - .

An you think all that and more wasnt suggested?

While i was involved with Larian beta... every single time i commented on some encounter being too easy the very next patch would implement all that i suggested and that made sense to devs. And they sure as hell did not increase difficulty by tripling HP of enemies.
Spells were added, Ai would be improved, compositions and positioning - the whole shebang. And they would even add more or maybe something someone else suggested that would surprise me.

You could literally see that the only thing they care about is making a better game, not whether the idea came from a backer or one of the devs. Instead of talking to RPS every other day they went into mad crunch time for months.

And thats why they will have my support whatever they do, same as Iron Towers - regardless of how much arguments i have on the forums or with Vince himself.

... although i really wish that ambush i create myself, as a thief in Teron, would not put me in the middle of the street two squares from three strong enemies. That really sucks Vince. Its my ambush dammit. If i make an ambush i do it right, not like an idiot.
(would be great if it was possible to tie that with Int so a thief with low int would start his ambush there while a smarter one would start it further away or even behind those crates where other smart theives are...)

 

[Lurker King]

Sadly, I'm starting to doubt that the community helped to the game's quality; since some of the most glaring "weird decisions" are features that people at the inXile forums actually wanted as far as I'm concerned, like floating filling icons appearing while a skill is being used, non-cosmetic armor and a game's balance that makes the player get through opening an insane amount of containers.

One of the worst offenders in my humble newfag opinion. How can you enjoy the c&c in the middle of all those explosives, locks, alarms and random loot?

 

[Lurker King]

Although Fargo promised to run everything by the players during the KS, he didn't. Thus, instead of getting feedback from day one, they stuck with the 'corporate' development style and didn't show anything until the first video and beta and by then it was too late to change the overall design.

Yep, pretty much. Brian Fargo is like a car salesman. He said what every nostalgic cRPG player wanted to hear, but after taking their money, he ignored them. It is not surprising that he didn't quite live up to his promise.

 

[Lurker King]

We're considering to change the dialogue system for our next game. I want to keep the non-combat, dialogue-heavy paths but it's a passive aspect (you either have the needed skill level or you don't), whereas combat is an active aspect where you can do more with less (or less with more). I have a pretty good idea of how to fix it without throwing away the writing and the choices, so when the time comes, I'll present the system and let the Codex tear it apart. If it's a bad idea, the Codex will destroy it and leave nothing. If it's a good idea, the Codex will point out the flaws and make tons of suggestions I would never even think of and make it better.

I know this thread is not about AoD, but since you mentioned… I think that players that only care about combat builds don’t give a damn about the dialogues. But as a player of AoD who enjoy the dialogues a lot, specially the talker builds, I think that the another real problem to consider is that the balance of the total amount of gameplay leans toward the combat builds. With a combat build (let’s say, with a mercenary background) I have X number of quests (including dialogues, etc.) plus a lot of battles, but with a talker build (for instance, with a merchant background) I have the same number of quests, dialogues and that’s it, nothing more. If I may, I would like to suggest the following rule of thumb for your next game: for each battle of a combat build, provide at least one quest for a talker build.

 

[Invictus]

Honestly I liked the game quite a lot, and my few complaints, like the loot system, countainers, and stats not directly affecting skills (for example strength beign a requirment for brute force or adding a significant bonus to strength related skills) didnt diminish my enjoyment of the game much.
Sure they could tweak the combat a bit to make it "deeper" and make the countainers less videogame and logical but the game delivered on what is set out to do, ands for better or worse it WAS the posterchild for Kickstarter success even if D OS was not only an arguably better game and a comercial success
All in all I think future projects like Torment will not only benefit from these first generación kickstared games, but help in the evolución of the genre itself for future releases.
Funny how my favorite game of 2014 was a budget game developer in flash by one person (Neoscavenger) and my 2 most expected games (Grimoire and Staglands) are following suit of what VD says; a strong single visión tempered by opinions and systems of others leads to more focused and less opinión based forum talk development

 

[Telengard]

From what I've seen, people generally didn't really know what to expect from Kickstarter RPGs, probably because they didn't actually play any of the indie RPGs that came out during the Dark Times, with the Gothics being as small budget as they were willing to go.

The millions earned from Kickstarter were damn impressive. But that's not even small studio money. It's indie budget title money. Because, after all, a rinky dink studio burns 5 million a year, a full-fledged small studio 3-4 times that. Which means, to get a full-fledged RPG out of Kickstarter, with everything everyone expected, that's baseline 15 mil. And we're not talking AAA here, but small studio. And that's because cheap, greenhorn programmers are 50,000 a year. Which means, 10 veteran programmers are going to cost you a million a year. And what that budget fact means is, with only a few million on the table, there's going to be things missing from the final game. That's just an inescapable fact. It's how indies work.

Indies are rarely complex, because complexity requires a lot of time and effort to implement and balance. They rarely fulfill all of their design concepts (neither do AAAs, for that matter, but the commons isn't funding those) because the concept doesn't always fit with what happens during development, and other times there's cost overruns on one part, which necessitates cuts elsewhere ('cause there's no extra money coming in from a publisher). They rarely put everything together well, because there's no budget to tear things out once they're in place if they're not working; you just do with what you have and make it work. And they rarely have good graphics, though they can have good art design, because graphics are a huge hole that eats money.

#

Within the budget constraints that they had, to appease more veterans, I would say cut the base settlement maps down to a static backdrop, with store and important people and stuff on the backdrop, and feed those funds into a more complex weapons system, rather than the basic weapon types version that they've got going (and which used in most modern tactical games), and also an advantages/disadvantages* system chosen at generation.

* Personal hatred for perks, or any character section that is all bonuses all the time, used to super up your character.

 

[DeepOcean]

The millions earned from Kickstarter were damn impressive. But that's not even small studio money. It's indie budget title money. Because, after all, a rinky dink studio burns 5 million a year, a full-fledged small studio 3-4 times that. Which means, to get a full-fledged RPG out of Kickstarter, with everything everyone expected, that's baseline 15 mil. And we're not talking AAA here, but small studio. And that's because cheap, greenhorn programmers are 50,000 a year. Which means, 10 veteran programmers are going to cost you a million a year. And what that budget fact means is, with only a few million on the table, there's going to be things missing from the final game. That's just an inescapable fact. It's how indies work.

Man, I heard this as well, quite a few times but I have to tell you, no shortage of money forced InXile to do certain disastrous decisions... I find really hard to believe that for example, that tiresome routine of openning containers over and over, the shitty weapon balance, the complete lack of imagination on the combat and etc is because they don't have 15 million dollars and telling you what... Inxile should have cut the six big areas on Arizona to three with more decent content on them if the budget was a problem, if the game is huge but boring, what is the point?

Fallout 1 had only the Vault, Junktown, the Hub, Necropolis, Brotherhood of Steel, the Glow, Military Base, Boneyard and the Catedral as major areas with Vault 15 and Shady Sands as smaller areas. Wasteland 2 has 14 major areas, some really huge and waste alot of time walking, walking, walking and doing nothing and plenty of smaller and pointless areas like those infected farms after Ag Center, some cutting and polishing would do great wonders but that is expecting too much from Wasteland 2 designers.

 

[felipepepe]

Exactly. It was pure megalomania to make a game of this size, with two completely different parts and all that. Another example of bad design/management; having a short budget and deciding to do an 80-hour RPG focused on "reactivity".

I wonder just how many had the endurance to play the entire game more than 2 or 3 times to see all that reactivity... especially with so many good RPGs this year.

 

[laclongquan]

Namedropping Fallout 1 wont help your argument.

Luckily, namedropping Fallout 2 in there wont change its direction.

 

[hiver]

But that's not even small studio money. It's indie budget title money.

A what? Indie studios work with 5 millions a year now?
hey VD, what are you doing with those millions!!?? paying samba lessons for the team?

From what I've seen, people generally didn't really know what to expect from Kickstarter RPGs, probably because they didn't actually

say what?

Neveremind, its the fantasy excuses squad...

It was pure megalomania to make a game of this size, with two completely different parts and all that. Another example of bad design/management; having a short budget and deciding to do an 80-hour RPG focused on "reactivity".

Really? And exactly what kind of reactivity doesnt matter at all?



How come i am the only one who is criticizing the badly written quests and horrible examples of that "reactivity"?

Like:

• Angela who gets angry at you for shooting or killing civilians all the time, even leaves the team if you do, but she kills some poor innocent trader for no sane reason at all, which also doesnt affect anything. - cheap schlock.

• Scotchmo attacking you if you try to dig the only unmarked grave in the graveyard, where his wife is buried.... and thats the only grave without a name just so you try to dig it, then kill Scotchmo - then reload because the situation is completely stupid. - cheap schlock.

• That guy in Levelupe mine ( a fantastically designed small map btw) whose mother is trapped inside doesnt go inside with you to help his mother, but wants to go with you after you ran around in a circle and finish that pointless self defeating quest.

• The ranger that sells you cheap weapons in the Citadel has a sister who had been raped because of his debt and now is hiding from that rapist, a single guy. And now he is selling cheap malfunctioning weapons (genius plan by itself right?) to... get the money... so she can pay not to be kidnapped and raped again by a single stupid bandit.... while her brother is a ranger in a Ranger Citadel full of high level rangers... and him being a ranger. When you deliver the letter SHE KILLS HERSELF, OR "pit bull" suddenly appears just as you come there and find her, which promptly ends in him throwing grenades that kill him and everyone else in that small space - but DONT kill everyone if you choose a different dialogue line! - cheap schlock.

• Ralphie the idiot is drowning two meters from the ground (and he is actually standing in shallow water but they darkened it after i laughed at it) - and there is that witness who rats on you if you do the wrong thing, but he never goes to help "poor" Ralphie. His Juliet doesnt try to help him but runs away to a completely empty area of the map - because thats where your team will magically arrive. Angie tells you how you must go save him but if you just leave and dont do anything she doesnt react at all, and if you shoot the idiot neither she or Vargas comment on it - but if you try to help and pick the wrong totem they both berate you for it. Vargas is apparently stalking you all the time - only NOT. Then if you do "save" Ralphie he and Juliet immediately go to a explosive rigged bicycle for more stupid schlock moments.

• Why are we entering Rail Nomads on a side entrance and not through its gate... thats just fused with some other area in which a third force that is stronger and better equipped then two sides in conflict just stands there doing nothing but waiting for you to kill them? Obviously this is done only so we can get that godawful completely broken Ralphie situation shoved down our throats.

• Why is there that woman in the Atchinsons part that wants you to go and kill both of the leaders - and when you do SHE KILLS HERSELF?

• In prison area you have that obnoxious situation with that dying woman forced schlock situation where you are forced to either KILL HER or do nothing - and in that case nothing happens, but you cannot affect that situation with your skills in any way otherwise.

• In the canyon you can run into a woman with a monk being attacked and if you let it happen the monks detonates which cuts the woman legs off and then she begs you to either KILL HER or just leave her alone.... because thats what people who just got their legs cut off by a small nucular explosion tend to do right?

• Why is there a completely modern military in the Canyon?

• Isnt it wonderful how hidden their secret base is, all with that huge white panel on the side of the hill where they are?

• Is it really not something that stings your minds eye when you run into Kathy Lawson impaled on those vines that are supposedly horribly killing her and then have a half hour chat with her in which she gives you the whole story of AG center and what happened and whats the cure and how to fix everything and even throws in a few jokes while she is at it?

• Why whatever you choose to do between AG center and Highpool has the same consequences later on which are all one trick ponies and utterly linear mind numbing boring?

• Why do we have to go all the way to Damonta to fix that radio tower to make prison situation resolve when the two are not connected in any way?

• Why is the part for that small robot is in the locker of the Damonta mini-boss?

• Why does Tinker stop the fight when you damage him enough but if you try to talk he just goes "No i will kill you anywaaaaay! " and just attacks you again?
• Why we cannot affect any of those with our skils?

And these are just examples i can think of on the top of my head, not to mention that both Ag center and Highpool are filled with similar nonsensical crap. And there is more in California.

Is this what 5 millions gives you? Is this what you MUST come up with when you want to do "reactivity?
Any single one of us an come up with better scenarios for any of those idiotic schlock moments.

Where does it say "reactivity = stupidity"?

Quantity over quality is the rule? Its great just to have a lot of moments like this?

 

[Sensuki]

Another one of inXile's problems I found was actually acknowledging problems. You had to hit them over the head four times, receive three down the line rebuttals from Brother None and then you might get an acknowledgement of an issue. That's why I gave up on giving feedback fairly early on.

They seem to have gotten a bit better at it though, and I believe Torment has the right people on the job. Can't wait for the alpha & beta.

 

[DeepOcean]

Another one of inXile's problems I found was actually acknowledging problems. You had to hit them over the head four times, receive three down the line rebuttals from Brother None and then you might get an acknowledgement of an issue. That's why I gave up on giving feedback fairly early on.

They seem to have gotten a bit better at it though, and I believe Torment has the right people on the job. Can't wait for the alpha & beta.

I hope too but whoever the game designers are on the next Inxile kickstarter, it is better to not bet the knuckleheads behind Wasteland 2, they need to be kept as far a way from a serious game as possible.

 

[Blaine]