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Wasteland Wasteland 2, what gone wrong? [SPOILERS]

set

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
940
The game is strictly okay. Which is better than what we had 2 years ago (nothing). Nevertheless, it is very underwhelming. Just try to imagine 2014 where the only major RPG released was DA3 -- where inexile is at is better than a situation like that.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
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How come i am the only one who is criticizing the badly written quests and horrible examples of that "reactivity"?
I added quotes to "reactivity" for a reason...

Brother None kept talking about how you could shoot the guy that saw you failing to save the drowning kid, so that he doesn't tell the rest of the villager what happed, but that's something that people will only try after like 5 playthroughts, and I doubt that anyone will play W2 that much. More over, the basic workings of that event are so broken and retarded that this "reactivity" is nothing but misplaced effort....

"Hey, there's a kid drowning there, go save it or you'll be hated by everyone here, even if he died while you desperately tried to save him - and no, you can't explain yourself, CPR the kid or call for help, just shoot down the messenger."
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Exactly. It was pure megalomania to make a game of this size, with two completely different parts and all that. Another example of bad design/management; having a short budget and deciding to do an 80-hour RPG focused on "reactivity".

I wonder just how many had the endurance to play the entire game more than 2 or 3 times to see all that reactivity... especially with so many good RPGs this year.

Sounds like they should have focused on the core gameplay, eh? I think I already told you this once, felipe - you're a Sawyerist too, you just don't know it!

Re: what Telengard said, I think what Fargo was afraid of was precisely that Wasteland 2 would be perceived as an "indie game". Remember that during most of this game's development, one of the worst things a Kickstarter RPG could turn out as was a Shadowrun Returns. Small. Short. Limited. Constraining. Nobody wanted to be the next Shadowrun Returns. So they took a calculated risk and made a big game. For the most part, that risk paid off.
 

felipepepe

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Sounds like they should have focused on the core gameplay, eh? I think I already told you this once, felipe - you're a Sawyerist too, you just don't know it!
Sawyerist means too many things. I like Sawyer's strong vision behind a game and his focus on core gameplay, but I disagree with a lot of his design choices, like no hard-counters, balance above all, etc.. he doesn't respect player's intelligence or creativity, and I think that sucks.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
he doesn't respect player's intelligence or creativity

Or rather player creativity means not enough balance and one can't have that.
Yeah, I'd rather have a game broken to the level of Arcanum than a boring, "PLZ DONT DISTURB BY CAREFULLY CRAFTED BALANCE WITH YOUR DASTARDLY WAYS" one.

Not to say that W2 gives you the freedom of Arcanum, but I don't think Sawyer would've helped making it better either.
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
Or rather player creativity means not enough balance and one can't have that.
Yeah, I'd rather have a game broken to the level of Arcanum than a boring, "PLZ DONT DISTURB BY CAREFULLY CRAFTED BALANCE WITH YOUR DASTARDLY WAYS" one.

Not to say that W2 gives you the freedom of Arcanum, but I don't think Sawyer would've helped making it better either.
Despite being a combat-focused RPG, PoE has a stealth system that allows you to bypass combat. Wasteland 2 is supposed to be all about alternate solutions and freedom yet has no such thing as a stealth system.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
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Messages
13,716
And that's supposed to show what? How Sawyer could've helped W2?

With a stealth system that's playing "dodge'em" with colored circles? Impressive. Much more different that just giving you a "do you want to fight this yes/no" option.
 

Athelas

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Messages
4,502
And that's supposed to show what? How Sawyer could've helped W2?

With a stealth system that's playing "dodge'em" with colored circles? Impressive.
It doesn't work like that. You should probably play something you're gonna criticize.

Much more different that just giving you a "do you want to fight this yes/no" option.
Wasteland 2 doesn't do this though.
 

hiver

Guest
I added quotes to "reactivity" for a reason...

Brother None kept talking about how you could shoot the guy that saw you failing to save the drowning kid, so that he doesn't tell the rest of the villager what happed, but that's something that people will only try after like 5 playthroughts, and I doubt that anyone will play W2 that much. More over, the basic workings of that event are so broken and retarded that this "reactivity" is nothing but misplaced effort....

"Hey, there's a kid drowning there, go save it or you'll be hated by everyone here, even if he died while you desperately tried to save him - and no, you can't explain yourself, CPR the kid or call for help, just shoot down the messenger."
Yeah ok, i know that we are on the same or similar page here but i needed to ask anyway.

You can shoot that guy, but the real question is why that guy - who is in that small shack right next to the lake - why that guy doesnt go and help Ralphie?
Why, if you go and shoot Ralphie yourself there is no radio call from Vargas, why Angie doesnt react to that? And of course... how the hell does Vargas know what you are doing? And why doesnt he call you after every other fucking thing you do?
- When you get there and the Juliet tells you that Ralphie is drowning and runs toward the lake - but never ever tries to help Ralphie herslef - the Angie herself shouts at you "We must go and save that kid!!!!!" - but if you just go away and dont do anything she doesnt say anything, Vargas doesnt call...

The more you think about that the worse and worse it all gets.
And because that was a quest that Fargo himself invented they had to change the whole location so that you always enter it there so that schlock is force fed to you.


Why when you come back to the Prison everyone have been killed off but there is that single guy alive and he tells you that he poisoned the dogs (with magic) and he also has the (magic) cure right there, ready to go?
You have the option of going to the Prison and making a deal with Danfort, then you can return to that guy and tell him so - which causes him to run towards the prison and get KILLED - for another stupid schlock moment.

but get this:
If you first go to the prison, make a deal with danforth and then kill everyone there, and then return to that guy - he will run into the prison and then just die because the empty air kills him.

btw, that cheap schlock of having everyone killed off while you are away is the real reason why the game forces you to go to Damonta, why you cant find that robot part anywhere else or affect any of that with your skills and choices.
Because you then have that option above of "making a deal with a murderer!!!!" - which is more cheap forced fake schlock, instead of anything resembling gray morality.


Btw, why in the hell would you make any deal with him when you can just kill them all?
To see different ending slides based on those stupid choices and horrible script?

Why would you want to turn mat into a pod zombie in Ag center? So you can KILL HIM? Just because you return from bellow and choose one sentence - but if you dont choose thta sentence or start that conversation then nothing happens?

You can save Peter down bellow and get this: If you tell him his girlfriend died that leads you to a better "reactivity" that makes him heal you and sell some medicine - BUT YOU DONT HAVE A SINGLE REASON TO RETURN THERE EVER AGAIN.
And if you tell him she might be alive or that you dont know then he HATES YOU and wont heal you after.

Not that you need it in any way.

Whats the purpose of that stupid shit with elections in Highpool (not to mention those fucking pipes and cockroaches) - what does it matter?
Why would you choose that guy who is for Red Scorpions when you will kill them all later on - or go for the cheap schlock of making a deal with a MURDERER.... that happens because of the convoluted Damonta forced shit.




California:

Reverse game back to the start. Apparently everyone sent to Cali DIED and you get to have one ranger to serve as plot exposition machine and another one who has been severely wounded by DOGGIES, waiting for you there - and the game FORCES YOU TO GO TALK TO HIM - otherwise you cannot ever leave that place - just so you can WATCH HIM DIE - which you cannot affect with your skills or choices in any way.
Which is just more forced cheap schlock.


Rodia starts good, robots attack - then never ever appear again.
You think you may choose the bad guys there but they just attack you later so you have to KILL THEM ANYWAY.

Manerites ... Colin did the best anyone can do with such a script... but its a simple choice between good guys (who are pretending to be bad cannibals only not because convoluted crap inside convoluted crap) and some crazy woman who you HAVE TO KILL... whatever. Some smaller stupid sub quest that end with you killing a few cockroaches and few badgers.

Oh gee... another crazed religious cult wanting to KILL EVERYONE.

Robots that want to KILL EVERYONE... and who force kill you if you join them.

If you took Rose with you she turns against you and you have to KILL HER.
If you take Lexcranium he does the same and you have to KILL HIM.







Im just barking into the wind here, am i?
Its not like i haven't said all this before. And then it was "NAAAH ITS JUST A BETA HIVER; ITS GOING TO BE SOOOO MUCH BETTER LATER ON!"


- edit-

plus obligatory "IM NOT LISTENBING TO YOUUUUU! I DIDNT REEEAD THAAAT!" and "BAN THE WITCH; BAAAN THE WIIITCH!!"
 
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DeepOcean

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Messages
7,394
Im just barking into wind here, am i?
No, I feel the pain too... all I wanted is the feeling of playing a classic quality level RPG again and what I got was a joke, yes... better than the popamole bullshit the gamming industry spews but that is hardly a consolation prize.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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One of the decisions probably went like this:


Day 12

Underling n°1 – Ok, boss, we have all those other awesome skills you asked for: alarm disarming, toaster repair, safecracking, brute force…

Boss – Hmm… they are still trash options. I have an idea: we can spread all these alarms, toasters, safes and obstacles across the entire game. That way they these skills will be very useful.

Underling n°2 – Indeed, what a brilliant idea.

Underling n°1 – Great! It reminds of sawyer philosophy.


In the first day of early access...

Underling n°2 – Guys, we have a problem. Those haters of the Codex are posting about our decisions. They are complaining that this decision is stupid and will hurt the gameplay. What should we do?

Boss – Just ignore them. Those grognards hate everything, but they are not pros, I’m… I mean, we are. Afterwards they will thank me. My game will be the posterboy of the cRPG renascence!
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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They never really wanted to take in any more serious input. Thats why their forums were ruled by conforming morons, while anyone who suggested anything that made the almighty dev ideas look bad was trolled, screamed at and insulted until they left or got banned or just stopped posting.

In many occasions they would choose to end discussions saying something like this: “Maybe the devs think differently”, “Maybe the devs have a different opinion”, “Maybe this is just your opinion”, etc.
 

Telengard

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The end of every place
A what? Indie studios work with 5 millions a year now?
hey VD, what are you doing with those millions!!?? paying samba lessons for the team?
Lots of indies survive on volunteer work. Which I'm not knocking. But, that's not a real business model. To actually hire a staff of a dozen people and pay them for a couple of years even at cheap, shoddy college grad worker prices, you're already in the millions. Do the math. 50,000 x 12 x 2.5 (years) =

Or, if you want veterans, and get some skilled work done, double that.

Now, you can go the volunteer route, sure. But that's not what the functioning studios were going for. They were shooting for a fully functioning studio with staff who actually got paid for their work. I know, I know that's shockingly wrong of them, to actually pay staff.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
Lots of indies survive on volunteer work. Which I'm not knocking. But, that's not a real business model. To actually hire a staff of a dozen people and pay them for a couple of years even at cheap, shoddy college grad worker prices, you're already in the millions. Do the math. 50,000 x 12 x 2.5 (years) =

Question is, how large does the average "Indie" studio get?
A dozen people for an indie studio might already be a bit large (admittedly there are exceptions, though). Now, I'm not an expert or anything, but I dare say that few will have more than ~5 permanent members on the team, so adding up 5 paychecks + potentially a few freelance gigs they have to pay for + rent + hardware + energy + some additional shit will most likely stay well below 0.5 million for one year - especially if they are willing to cut back on their pay, which they will if they see it as their pet-project as opposed to some mere job that pays the rent.

Ultimately that's not important though. inXile is not really a typical indie studio and they have been aiming higher with Wasteland 2. And for that you are indeed right, 3 millions is not that much for the scope of the project and probably the cause of some issues (like the disjointed impression the artwork leaves with me) or probably too little time for iterative testing of certain mechanics.
Other things seem more like a consequence of an unclear vision of what they wanted to do with the game.
I have to admit that I don't know about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if inXile had other sources of funding for W2 (like Larian did for D:OS).

Anyway, ultimately the end product and its reception didn't convince me to buy it outright and since I didn't back it either, I'm waiting at least for the big balance patch and potentially for an enhanced edition.
 

StaticSpine

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
My point is:

inXile could make a better 30 hrs game removing half of the boring encounters instead of 60+ including tons of filler.

Still my 2014 GOTY:love:
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
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Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,684
W2's problem is it has too much content. Instead of improving gameplay, they just made more content. Instead of refining the story, they just made more content. Instead of looking at ways to diversify combat, they just added more content. On and on. The focus seemed to have been on a 60-hour game, and not making compelling gameplay and just seeing where the length ended up. It's why the writing is so shit, storywise. It's why there's a disconnect between the Rangers being badass, and then the story is just you and a group of misfit non-Rangers getting boomeranged around the wasteland while Vargas sips tea. It's why the story goes at a snail's pace, beginning with the murder of a character who wasn't even in this game. Sorry, it's been decades since Wasteland was around. Pick someone I give a fuck about dying. Enormous content is why you get the "designed by checklist" feel - because it seems like they made a big map and then sat back and said, Alright, now fill it with shit. That's why you have the drowning kid. The drowning kid is content meant to fill space and time, that's it. It's why you open 4,000 boxes via timed skill usage. Because you gotta justify the enormous content. All that content meant a lot of combat, but there's more content than gameplay, so combat consists of Pong-style shooting mixed with HP-bloat making for a very dull martini.

I have a gajillion issues with W2, but the more I think about it the more I believe it just overwhelmed itself with shit to do instead of focusing on making that shit fun in the first place.
 

hiver

Guest
How or why does more content come to mean - shit content?
What kind of weak excuse is that?

None of the scenes and scripts i described above needed to be that stupid, regardless of the amount of content that they "had to produce". Each of those can very easily be written or designed in a bit different way that would at least make all that - not bloody stupid. Although anything that makes sense compared to that garbage above would seem as most awesome thing ever.

That awful beginning. There is no need for your team to not even be full Rangers at all, nor for the Citadel to be closed. Making rangers inside refuse to talk or trade with you until you finish the mission Vargas gives you cannot be any easier thing to do then it is.

Drowning Ralphie is there because it is Fargo quest. Its not some accidental appearance just because there had to be a lot of content. It too can easily be turned into something that atleast makes some fucking sense, if its basic postulations are changed a little bit.

The Titan Canyon was done by one single dev (i dont know who), who was one of the new ones employed there. And i heard there was two more factions in plan and much more diverse C&C and endings. But then Fargo himself reduced those to whats in the game.
How does that go with "just more content" theory? Darwin is an ok location too, you have two ways to go about things, a nice cool way to figure out the entrance door numbers combination, one possible tag along character and logical consequences. Simple but nice.


It is more then clear that the quality of most of the content was and is intentional. That someone there thinks that just making 100 reactive moments is what this audience wants (or doesnt give a fuck about what audience really wants) - and that no regards to quality, to internal logic and consistency, or common sense should be applied to any of it. And that creating cheap, superficial soap opera schlock moments will work.
And you know what... THEY ARE RIGHT.

Still my 2014 GOTY:love:



Only ... apparently not so right as it first seemed to be.
Though again, for some weird reason, most people just somehow skip over the examples i wrote above and think that some icons and loading skill use strips are the biggest problem in the game... (VD never mentioned a single of those examples in his awesome review).
Nobody said, hey...when i kill all these fucking badgers in Level uP mines there is no reason why the miners should blow up those rocks because they can just go out the way i came in...
And all of that crap can be solved with just one additional line of dialogue more.

(not to mention how stupid it is that you have to do it yourself, without any requirement of demolition skill and that everyone are standing close to rocks that will explode in a small enclosed space)

I think it may be some kind of self defense mechanism. At least when it comes to smarter people.



In many occasions they would choose to end discussions saying something like this: “Maybe the devs think differently”, “Maybe the devs have a different opinion”, “Maybe this is just your opinion”, etc.
Whatever ... different people got all kinds of different reactions from the "Devs defend squad", various forms of denial or fantasies, strawman, ad hominems... etc. As is the usual.

Its not just Inxile forums, btw. I have some really ridiculous examples from Larian forums, including one where i say they should make a better separate Hard mode and that the normal at that point is hard enough, but get screamed at for pages because i "want them to make normal mode even harder". Even if other poster or two came in a quoted me again and tried to explain.

And of course Obsidian forums shined in with their own imbeciles recently.

And its the exact same process and procedure in all of them. Only luckily the devs and bosses of Larian are made of different cloth. Hopefully that will be said for Obs too.



No, I feel the pain too... all I wanted is the feeling of playing a classic quality level RPG again and what I got was a joke, yes... better than the popamole bullshit the gamming industry spews but that is hardly a consolation prize.
You know... as most of us did at the time, i let that suggestion Fargo had about implementing "social features" into the game slide. I thought, of course he would want to increase sales after the release, i would even "allow it" if the core of the game was good, as something additional.
But ofcourse you cannot do both at the start and it would have taken resources and time from the game so i also voted against, like everyone. But didnt think too much of it.

Looking back at that and the end result...

What does it say when someones first reaction to the idea of making the "old school" Wasteland and Fallout inspired game is - "hey lets add facebook and twitter social features" ?

It says that person has no fucking clue about what is actually good about those old games. Except the superficial bullet point list of "features". Which whole of the W2 shows more then clearly.
And of course it was done by a team which never worked on any kind of cRPG, except that... haunted crap or something but that was more of an action game then anything else.
 
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miles teg

Scholar
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
130
Funny thing is I found W2 a very good game. My main issues are with quests being a bit short and some weapons to be too powerful (AR mainly).

I don't want to troll or offend anyone here, but seeing what most people wanted I'm almost happy they didn't listen to the community too much. I didn't back this game but after playing it, I will definitely be a backer of their next game.

Now yes, this game is far from perfect, but most (albeit not all) of the complains here are about personal preferences. "I don't like an unknown guy to be dead at the beginning", "getting rid of the armor against energy weapons is shit" and "too many containers" look like personal preferences to me.
I didn't play the original one but the dead guy seems a good way to start to me, I found the energy weapon thing interesting (instead of the usual boring "always wear the best armor" meme) and... well yes I found there are too many containers with too many traps (I even found a "shit" container to be trapped once :D) but I don't see that as a major problem.

I think some of the complains here are genuine (no matter if I agree with them or not) but overall my impression is that while most people agree this game is bad, they always have different reason. This leads be to believe that people are just sad they didn't get the game THEY wanted (which is a different game for each person, I hope this makes sense :D)
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,399
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
W2's problem is it has too much content. Instead of improving gameplay, they just made more content. Instead of refining the story, they just made more content. Instead of looking at ways to diversify combat, they just added more content. On and on. The focus seemed to have been on a 60-hour game, and not making compelling gameplay and just seeing where the length ended up. It's why the writing is so shit, storywise. It's why there's a disconnect between the Rangers being badass, and then the story is just you and a group of misfit non-Rangers getting boomeranged around the wasteland while Vargas sips tea. It's why the story goes at a snail's pace, beginning with the murder of a character who wasn't even in this game. Sorry, it's been decades since Wasteland was around. Pick someone I give a fuck about dying. Enormous content is why you get the "designed by checklist" feel - because it seems like they made a big map and then sat back and said, Alright, now fill it with shit. That's why you have the drowning kid. The drowning kid is content meant to fill space and time, that's it. It's why you open 4,000 boxes via timed skill usage. Because you gotta justify the enormous content. All that content meant a lot of combat, but there's more content than gameplay, so combat consists of Pong-style shooting mixed with HP-bloat making for a very dull martini.

I have a gajillion issues with W2, but the more I think about it the more I believe it just overwhelmed itself with shit to do instead of focusing on making that shit fun in the first place.

Actually, the drowning kid wasn't about filling content. It was a weird little scenario straight from the brain of Brian Fargo, conceived at the very beginning of the project's development.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
I think some of the complains here are genuine (no matter if I agree with them or not) but overall my impression is that while most people agree this game is bad, they always have different reason. This leads be to believe that people are just sad they didn't get the game THEY wanted (which is a different game for each person, I hope this makes sense :D)
Started playing RPGs on 2014? If yes, I understand.
 

hiver

Guest
Yeah its all personal opinions and preferences, you see. Going naked against energy weapons, too many containers that require use of four different skills - which are just one skill that was intentionally split into four - personal preferences.
Saying "meh i dont mind, i like it" is the answer to every inconsistent nonsense things in the game.

The "dead guy" could have been there as it is, but not as something that is pushed into your face right at the very start.
 

miles teg

Scholar
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
130
Started playing RPGs on 2014? If yes, I understand.
Close enough, I started in 1998 with Fallout

Going naked against energy weapons, too many containers that require use of four different skills - which are just one skill that was intentionally split into four - personal preferences.
Those are facts. The fact you don't like them is because of personal preferences. I do like the naked thing against energy weapons. So what?

Saying "meh i dont mind, i like it" is the answer to every inconsistent nonsense things in the game.
fair enough, but saying "meh I don't like it, then it must be a bad mechanic" it's not good either

The "dead guy" could have been there as it is, but not as something that is pushed into your face right at the very start.
Why not? Who set this rule that these things can't happen at the very start?
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,222
Location
Ingrija
Those are facts. The fact you don't like them is because of personal preferences. I do like the naked thing against energy weapons. So what?

Naked against energy weapons is kinda dumb. Making alternate armor line which is good for energy and bad for bullets (with the opposite for normal armor) would make much more sense, in addition to forcing the player to stick with one or suffer encumbrance.

Funny, people drool when they have 4 different skills for clicking hypertext links in dialogue trees (yay, I cannot "indimidate" here but i can "seduce" there, very replayability!11), but having 4 different skills for looting is somehow bad. Storyfags, storyfags never change.
 

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