Game News Wasteland 2's Delay: All About Making Choice Matter

[DarkUnderlord]

I mean if there are going to supposedly be entire sections of the game that are going to be locked out via certain choices, requiring a complete replay in order to even see, that's pretty harsh. Retarded, I might even say.

Fallout 1: The Glow and the Brotherhood of Steel. If you didn't get into the Glow, you missed getting into BoS. Made me replay the game again after I'd found out that beam could have a rope put on it. I swear to God I moused over that fucker everywhere the first time and missed it. Mind you, dying from the radiation there because I didn't take the Anti-Rad pills did make me avoid it.

That isn't really the same. You just couldn't do A which is required to get into B, therefore no B for you.

It's similar enough. If you couldn't find the way in, then you missed out on A (The Glow) and B (BoS). If you got into the Glow but couldn't find what you were looking for, then you missed out on B - but the issue is still the same, you "missed out" on content. You missed out on and end-game option (no talking the Master to death using Vree's holodisk to show the Super Mutants were infertile), you missed out on the best piece of armour in the game and you missed out on having allies with you when you attack the Military Base. Along with B being completely inaccessible.

I expect similar options to be available in Wasteland 2. Don't have a high enough lock-picking skill? Well, you're not getting into the level of the military base that's full of secret goodies. That means you miss out on the awesome weaponry and might have a harder time fighting the bad guys at the end.

The example gives you a task at town A and town B, the one you visit second will likely have lost to its problem, so you can no longer solve it. And it sounds good to me, as long as that isn't the only way it delivers exclusive content, like a constant train of arriving at C, "A needs help, we are north of you!" "B needs help, we are to the south!", make choice, find other area is gone.

That doesn't sound anything like what he said. "there will be areas that will be completely different. Gone, destroyed. There’s not one just like it to make up for it. It’s just gone." Your(?) example sounds like there's Town A and B, you still get to visit one and you get your "content" there. It's also fundamentally lame (it still "gives you" something, IE town A or B as a result). It's like those cheesy "choices" in-games where you choose between the awesome suit of armour or the awesome sword - picking one means you miss out on the other - and yet either is so powerful you could win the game with it easily. OH NO CHOICES.

Other things like warring factions, people who avoid you based on what you have done (the criminals won't ask for help from someone who has been paladin-ing around the wasteland) etc. Also a destroyed town will hopefully lead to more than ruined buildings and corpses in the area. Maybe escapees or pissed off friends in another area?

Yes, like in the original Fallout.

 

[SuicideBunny]

If W2 is too hardcore C&C wise for codex, it is hard to imagine amount of butthurt on codex when AoD hits the market.

pretty sure if aod ever hits the market, nobody will give a fuck anymore.

 

[Rivmusique]

That doesn't sound anything like what he said. "there will be areas that will be completely different. Gone, destroyed. There’s not one just like it to make up for it. It’s just gone." Your(?) example sounds like there's Town A and B, you still get to visit one and you get your "content" there. It's also fundamentally lame (it still "gives you" something, IE town A or B as a result). It's like those cheesy "choices" in-games where you choose between the awesome suit of armour or the awesome sword - picking one means you miss out on the other - and yet either is so powerful you could win the game with it easily. OH NO CHOICES.

Hmmm I guess I got it from

“And we show the reactivity,” Keenan said. “If you go to one area, you start to hear radio calls from the other. They’re getting taken over, and if you try to veer back, you see the destruction from that, and they’re in a completely different state. For instance, if you’re too late to a call, maybe robots took it out. If you go there, you’re gonna see carnage. Piles of dead bodies. No robots left to kill because they’ve moved on.”

+ the Witcher 2 comparisons. There is also this from earlier:

• At the beginning of the game, the Rangers will receive distress calls from two towns and the player will have to choose which one to assist. The state of both towns will change radically as a consequence of this choice

I don't think it would have to be a 'cheesy' choice, as the towns would hopefully be completely different, with a different threat, different inhabitants etc.

 

[Septaryeth]

I don't see the problem some people have. If you like the game, chances are you are going to replay it down the road. No one forces you to do it right away. But in six months/one year time that you replay it the fact that it will feel like an entirely new game (even if i doubt it will be so reactive as Fargo says) can only be a positive, right?
And if you don't like the game, it's not as the missing content would be at a whole new level and you don't miss anything.

I suppose it's something like a completionist's obsession.
MUST HAVE PERFECT RECORD IN ONE GO WITH 100% OF ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!

Or perhaps people are worried that reactivity/branching shortens the overall length of one game.
Like cutting out a specific area that the players should eventually come across and place it in parallel with another.
But still, even then it shouldn't be that big a deal.
Nothing wrong with actually experiencing the consequences of your actions and greater immersion, right?

 

[undecaf]

There is also this from earlier:

• At the beginning of the game, the Rangers will receive distress calls from two towns and the player will have to choose which one to assist. The state of both towns will change radically as a consequence of this choice

I don't think it would have to be a 'cheesy' choice, as the towns would hopefully be completely different, with a different threat, different inhabitants etc.

Sounds like it could well be a choice between Ag. Center versus the hostile plants and Raiders attacking Highpool.

The premise is pretty simple (and almost identical between the cases: Plebs being under attack, go help), but the effect of the choice and the way it is handled could well ripple through out the game to affect shit much later down the line, which I don't think would make it a cheesy one (even if - should that indeed be the case - it sounds more like an "explosive start" to give the player a taster of how the game will roll on and treat him).

 

[Hellraiser]

Game have top-down camera??? Devs must not know how to make other ( read -> fpp ) camera.

Why do you even read that shit? It's the youtube comment section equivalent amongst potato game sites.

 

[Burning Bridges]

I like the idea of areas changing, being war-torn or what have you depending on if you decided to neglect them or through some other choices, but as I said for the area simply not to exist or not to be able to be visited in any way because of those choices might get frustrating. Absolutely forcing a replay in order to not miss out on large sections of the game just seems wrong to me.

Only so much sugar should be added to any cake. You feel me?

I don't see the problem, if every playthrough is fun, and logically consistent. Unless of course it gets too short, but I don't see that happening.

 

[Schizophrenic monolog]

As i recall, Wasteland 2 suppose to be twice the size of Fallout 2, with about 50 different areas to explore and the main campaign is about 20 hours long. (without the exploration and side quests...)
So, if i do the math correctly, you get a very long game (about 100 hours) on the first run.
So to me, it doesn't matter if I'll play it again afterwards (for any reason), as long as the first run is good and long enough! (Good thing never tend to last forever ) So, the replay is just a (big fat)bonus!

 

[Elhoim]

If W2 is too hardcore C&C wise for codex, it is hard to imagine amount of butthurt on codex when AoD hits the market.

You have no idea

 

[likaq]

Game have top-down camera??? Devs must not know how to make other ( read -> fpp ) camera.

Why do you even read that shit? It's the youtube comment section equivalent amongst potato game sites.

I like torture myself from time to time.

 

[Midair]

Don't have a high enough lock-picking skill? Well, you're not getting into the level of the military base that's full of secret goodies. That means you miss out on the awesome weaponry and might have a harder time fighting the bad guys at the end.

In a party-based game though, wouldn't you typically have a thief with lock-picking and a diplomat with persuasion, etc.?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

pretty sure if aod ever hits the market, nobody will give a fuck anymore.

Yeah. Part of AoD's charm is next Thursday.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Yeah. Part of AoD's charm is next Thursday.

heh, i started lurking here because of aod and then registered quite some time later to bitch about some aod screenies, which i then decided against...

 

[Irenaeus]

In a party-based game though, wouldn't you typically have a thief with lock-picking and a diplomat with persuasion, etc.?

Yes, of course.

 

[Midair]

Then you would not be locked out of mutually exclusive content for character development reasons. No different than, for example, arcade shooters that have branching paths just so you have to replay and spend more quarters to see everything.

 

[Irenaeus]

arcade shooters that have branching paths just so you have to replay and spend more quarters to see everything.

I loved those.

 

[General Maxson]

arcade shooters that have branching paths just so you have to replay and spend more quarters to see everything.

I loved those.

Hey bro what game is that, and is it playable on PC?

 

[Irenaeus]

arcade shooters that have branching paths just so you have to replay and spend more quarters to see everything.

I loved those.

Hey bro what game is that, and is it playable on PC?

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...dragons_tower_of_doom_and_shadow_over_mystara

Great games. I heard you can play them through emulation in the PC.

 

[Infinitron]

They're on Steam now: http://store.steampowered.com/app/229480/

 

[Midair]

And that, gentlemen, is how you turn a thread about choices & consequences in Wasteland 2 into a thread about button-mashing.

 

[Gozma]

The only thing I dislike about content becoming unavailable due to choices and consequences, is that it leads to metagaming when making decisions, especially when replaying. You end up making choices based on what content you want to see and not on what makes sense in-game.

If there is enough legit C&C then the game becomes about the fun of C&C instead of the fun of straining content through your baleen

 

[SuicideBunny]

The only thing I dislike about content becoming unavailable due to choices and consequences, is that it leads to metagaming when making decisions, especially when replaying. You end up making choices based on what content you want to see and not on what makes sense in-game.

If there is enough legit C&C then the game becomes about the fun of C&C instead of the fun of straining content through your baleen

it isn't so much about the amount as it is about the form of the consequences.
having to choose which town to save is fine as long as the choice alters the town you didn't choose while also offering at least some (different) content there. it's not fine if the other town just becomes unaccessible/deserted/empty as that just emphasizes the fact that the choice is forced upon you for no reason whatsoever without allowing you to split your party.

 

[toro]

I mean if there are going to supposedly be entire sections of the game that are going to be locked out via certain choices, requiring a complete replay in order to even see, that's pretty harsh. Retarded, I might even say.

Fallout 1: The Glow and the Brotherhood of Steel. If you didn't get into the Glow, you missed getting into BoS. Made me replay the game again after I'd found out that beam could have a rope put on it. I swear to God I moused over that fucker everywhere the first time and missed it. Mind you, dying from the radiation there because I didn't take the Anti-Rad pills did make me avoid it.

That isn't really the same. You just couldn't do A which is required to get into B, therefore no B for you.

It's similar enough. If you couldn't find the way in, then you missed out on A (The Glow) and B (BoS). If you got into the Glow but couldn't find what you were looking for, then you missed out on B - but the issue is still the same, you "missed out" on content. You missed out on and end-game option (no talking the Master to death using Vree's holodisk to show the Super Mutants were infertile), you missed out on the best piece of armour in the game and you missed out on having allies with you when you attack the Military Base. Along with B being completely inaccessible.

I expect similar options to be available in Wasteland 2. Don't have a high enough lock-picking skill? Well, you're not getting into the level of the military base that's full of secret goodies. That means you miss out on the awesome weaponry and might have a harder time fighting the bad guys at the end.

1) Crispy doesn't complain about quest C&C. If you don't have a high enough lock-picking skill, you should not get in that military base. That's normal and expected behavior.

2) What Crispy is saying better than me is this: an elegant C&C design allows the player to make informed decisions. Give him hints, throw some info and let the player decide what he should do. Let him use or ignore the information, that's his prerogative.

3) Your comparison between Fallout and Witcher 2 is incorrect:

• You failed a quest therefore you were unable to join BoS. In Witcher 2 you have to choose between two assholes and based on that the entire Chapter 2 is different. Failing a quest is quite different compared to a blind decision.

• The Glow and the BoS base are on the map for the entire duration of the game. You can visit them and perhaps feel the consequences of your actions (the Glow). Fallout world is consistent. But in Witcher 2, one singular decision results in two different "worlds" which are completely separated one from the other.

• Fallout story is uninterrupted, they tried to create quests with consequences which have rippling effects until the end of the game. They did not always succeed, but that's ok. In Witcher 2, it useless to say that except the main avatar, his gear and the companion NPC, nothing survives the chapter end.

• Fallout is not imposing any path on the player, you are free to find or miss the Glow. It's not end game stuff. On the other hand, The Witcher 2 is just a long masturbation about that singular decision which as you already guessed, it's unavoidable.

Do I have to say which design method is more elegant?

 

[Infinitron]

The only thing I dislike about content becoming unavailable due to choices and consequences, is that it leads to metagaming when making decisions, especially when replaying. You end up making choices based on what content you want to see and not on what makes sense in-game.

If there is enough legit C&C then the game becomes about the fun of C&C instead of the fun of straining content through your baleen

it isn't so much about the amount as it is about the form of the consequences.
having to choose which town to save is fine as long as the choice alters the town you didn't choose while also offering at least some (different) content there. it's not fine if the other town just becomes unaccessible/deserted/empty as that just emphasizes the fact that the choice is forced upon you for no reason whatsoever without allowing you to split your party.

What do you mean, "no reason"? If the town is fucking gone, then it's gone. That's the story they want to tell.

Gozma What did you call it, again? People who want RPGs to be their "OCD satisfaction genre"?

 

[Spectacle]

Well, there's a difference between a destroyed town simply being listed as "unavailable" on the map, and being able to go there and see that it's destroyed, explore it for loot and information about what happened and having a chance to track down the perpetrators to give them payback and rescue any captives.