What did New Vegas DO WRONG? / Would isometric New Vegas with finished content be GOAT?

[Trashos]

My question was targeted mainly at the people who say that the game is too easy. Sure, it could have been harder, and I am no expert in FPS, but it's still probably Obsidian's hardest game. But I can't answer or really discuss their criticisms until I know their setup.

i don't like jsawyer mod because it reduces the level cap.

Oh man, I wish the level cap were even lower than what Jsawyer makes it. 30 at most. I hate being too powerful. No role-playing, danger, and variety between playthroughs left then. But you were not complaining about the game being too easy, so I am fine with your tastes.

 

[ilitarist]

I played with JSawyer mod. I think it assumes you use Hardcore mode and I don't really like it. It adds busywork. Lower backpack space is nice, but I think that like many mods like those it pushes you into a very specific comfortable playstyle. Everything has a weight so you'd better use something light to kill, i.e. small guns. Explosives and chem are relatively heavy so screw them. So it pays to be a stealthy quick guy. If you want to use a minigun than you have to be strong and even then you can't take much more than a minigun.

The mod is OK, it doesn't go too far, but the game still becomes broken quickly.

 

[aweigh]

dude, if you're playing FNV without hard-core mode I honestly don't know what to tell you...

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

 

[ilitarist]

I do use it because of weight adjustment.

My point is that with default weight you have an arsenal with you. With hardcore weight half of weapons are not really viable and maybe worth it to use situationally. Maybe you can get Fat Man, shoot somebody then go home and switch it for normal weapons to kill normal dudes. Too much bother though.

 

[aweigh]

a lot of the game's difficulty "issues" would be solved with simply limiting the amount of ingestibles the player can consume during combat/inventory menu.

...y'know, like they did in PoE basically. heh.

weightless ammo would still need to be regulated, but by doing that simple change (limiting ingestibles during combat) half of sawyer mod becomes obsolete.

it could be as easy as simply not allowing ingestible stacking, i.e. consuming one disallows consumption of a 2nd one until the 1st one wears off.

i'm frankly surprised no one ever made a mod for this, which leads me to believe there's some coding issue which prevents it.

 

[Wayward Son]

Maybe you can get Fat Man, shoot somebody then go home and switch it for normal weapons to kill normal dudes. Too much bother though.

I mean, carrying a mini nuke launcher should be situational. An alternative to running home to switch it out is to transfer it to a companion who has no mini nukes in their inventory(so they don't use it, god forbid) for carrying. Would almost get the feel of it needing a small team to operate rather than being a personal firearm IMO.

 

[Sigourn]

a lot of the game's difficulty "issues" would be solved with simply limiting the amount of ingestibles the player can consume during combat/inventory menu.

...y'know, like they did in PoE basically. heh.

weightless ammo would still need to be regulated, but by doing that simple change (limiting ingestibles during combat) half of sawyer mod becomes obsolete.

it could be as easy as simply not allowing ingestible stacking, i.e. consuming one disallows consumption of a 2nd one until the 1st one wears off.

i'm frankly surprised no one ever made a mod for this, which leads me to believe there's some coding issue which prevents it.

IMO people simply decide to "do it themselves". Like you, I realize New Vegas' infinite consumption makes the game a lot easier than it should be. So I LARP not being able to ingest everything at once, and use stimpaks only when I'm in a safe position, as opposed to spamming stimpaks as I'm being shot at in close combat.

It makes the game more enjoyable for sure, knowing that you can't inject yourself with 10 Stimpaks at once. The Rule of Cool would be in full effect if animations played out whenever you use an ingestible, plus it would solve the annoying "spam everything" problem as well.

 

[aweigh]

I'd rather simply make a mod which makes all chems/stimpacks weigh 50 lbs.

that way you can only carry a few of these items, and you're not reduced to LARPing. making a mod like this literally takes less than 5 minutes if you download one which already edits these items (Like MTC's weighted chems) and just load it up in the CS and tweak the values.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Good sides of the Legion:
- Order and Peace. No raiders, no gangs, mutant animal attacks probably down as well.
- Solid, efficient economy backed by Gold currency
- Minimal Corruption; Corruption stomped down without mercy
- No Drugs and general debauchery and degeneracy
- Adequate supply of Water, Food and Energy.
- No/Neglibible racism (that we know of, I don't remember the Legion being anti-mutant or anti-ghoul).

Well, order and peace is something NCR got as well back home, with raiders, gangs and mutants eliminated or driven off. No drugs (or modern medicine) - yeah, sure, it's kind of hard to party when you are under a constant threat of torture and death. As for the actual economy stuff, there's really nothing in the game that suggest this. You get to talk to one merchant that deals in the Legion territory and all he says is that is safe to travel there. Personally, I really doubt it. Before the conquest, that was a primitive tribal country, and the Legion is practically technophobic. That's not a good combination to make a solid economy in such a short time. Nothing about racism in the game either.

Here's what we do see in the game - Legion regularly does morally repugnant actions. Legion soldiers are little more than slaves themselves, utterly obedient to Caesar and nothing else. Legion is heavily dependent on slavery, with no sign of any modern transportation or indeed, any modern technology except some weapons. Legion regularly does slave raids or buys slaves from Fiends and the like. You can talk with one slave in the Fort and see several more at work or crucified, and no, this does not paint a nice picture at all. You can also find crucified or killed prisoners of war or slaves (including female slaves) in the game.

Now let's compare that to NCR from the perspective of your average citizen:

You can travel or live just as safely.
You have a fucking railroad to travel with.
You can easily get a safe and boring job at one of the ranches or mills.
You can get treated by a real doctor with modern medicine.
You are not going to get your head chopped off or crucified for saying that the President is an asshole.
In fact, you are not gong to be killed or imprisoned without at least some due process, flawed or not.
If you are male, you are not going to get conscripted in what is practically a slave army.
If you are female, you are not going to be treated as inferior or outright enslaved.

This is in the game, you can learn it from Cass or other NPCs, you can see the railroad tracks, you can hear NCR people criticize their leadership, see men and women not treated as cattle.

 

[aweigh]

i would disagree with these:

In fact, you are not gong to be killed or imprisoned without at least some due process, flawed or not.

If you are male, you are not going to get conscripted in what is practically a slave army.

that aerotech quest proves otherwise about that whole due process thing, and we also know the NCR is not above torture either. sure you can say it's an isolated incident (Captain Parker going Judge Dredd) but then you have to concede that it can happen, and if it happened in aerotech so casually then it most certainly can be extrapolated to be something that happens frequently, especially considering Captain Parker's attitude does not change whatsoever after he murders the civilian nor does he make any remark about his behavior.

As for conscription: the NCR soldiers may not be drafted but most of them are there because of need and desperation, in fact I can't even remember a single NCR soldier who says he is doing it out of patroitism, as even the elite units who did not join out of need only talk about wanting things like vengeance or that their skills lie in the domain of warfare and thus they are there; never anything about love of country.

also, once again, the farms the NCR has begun in the mojave are being worked by displaced republic citizens who are there because they literally have no other choice; either go to the frontier and work a farm or die of hunger in the republic. if they do this to their civilians then it stands to reason that they do the same or worse to bolster their military ranks.

yes, this is not the equivalent of forced military service (which, btw, a lot of modern countries actually still practice), but it's the other side of the same coin.

 

[Trashos]

I played with JSawyer mod. I think it assumes you use Hardcore mode and I don't really like it. It adds busywork. Lower backpack space is nice, but I think that like many mods like those it pushes you into a very specific comfortable playstyle. Everything has a weight so you'd better use something light to kill, i.e. small guns. Explosives and chem are relatively heavy so screw them. So it pays to be a stealthy quick guy. If you want to use a minigun than you have to be strong and even then you can't take much more than a minigun.

The mod is OK, it doesn't go too far, but the game still becomes broken quickly.

All right, but most of the criticisms you mentioned on the last page are solved by JSawyer. Level progression is slower, level cap is lower, health is lower, some early overpowered weapons/armors are not available, and stimpaks or even food won't get you too far if you are swarmed (as such consumables don't work instantaneously in hardcore mode). Coupled with the limited weight, all this adds quite a bit of challenge.

That is not to say that NV should not have been harder, but it is not that easy either. I am very experienced with it by now, and I still die a few times during every playthrough. (Not to mention that some dlc, especially Dead Money, can be downright brutal)

 

[Zero Credibility]

Game portrays Legion the same way you would see Romans if visiting Ceasars army camp deep in Gaul after the subjugation of Vercigoneterix rebelion; the laws, culture, trade and roads came there but long after that to the extend that Roman rule lasted in Northern Gaul longer than in Rome. Caesar has big plans for Mojave too planning to conquer New Vegas and turning it new Rome; capital for His Legion. As to no bringing nothing of sorts just talk to Cassidy, Raul and Merchant inside the Fort... they all tell that life for average non resisting and hence enslaved folks is better under Legion than NCR. Even final credits tell you that places which not resist Legion like Prim not under Mayers fare well after changing of occupying power. Of course to get best ending for those places you need to actually save Caesar and make sure Lanius not takes over as the former is Philosopher King and latter just a butcher.

There is nothing Roman about the Legion except what names Caesar transplanted from history books. Cass, Raul and Merchant have only one thing to say - that the Legion protects its supply lines and keeps their territory free of raiders. That's it, that the only thing they have to say positive about the Legion. But so does fucking NCR back home, only without all the baggage of being murderous slavers. There is nothing about the average non-enslaved folk living the better life under the Legion. As for the enslaved folk, well... you can ask them too or see the hanging on the crucifixes or staggering while dragging packs bigger than themselves uphill. Not really a good life for them.

As for Caesars plans - wishful thinking on Caesars part even if that plan could excuse what he is doing here and now (which it doesn't). The Legion sees him as a god, the moment he dies it will fall on itself.

 

[boot]

But so does fucking NCR back home, only without all the baggage of being murderous slavers.

They do not. This is what makes the Legion so noteworthy. There are no fucking raiders or wasteland filth in Legion territory. Only Legion. Doesn't that merchant mention that he travels without a guard on their roads?

 

[Starwars]

The factions in this game must be some the most discussed factions in a game ever. I guess that means it did something right.

Regarding the difficulty, I think it's pretty good actually. I don't have a huge problem playing the game now exactly but I died quite a bit when I first played the game. Deathclaws, Cazadores, Super Mutants, Brotherhood of Steel people, the assassins sent by the Legion/NCR, probably a few more I forgot... all these have definitely killed me (sometimes downright stomped me in fact) a few times. Some areas could be tweaked to be a bit more difficult. I think especially if you follow the "main path" to New Vegas (following the trail of Benny), I think it's way too easy even though... well, I understand that it's supposed to be the easy path.

 

[Zero Credibility]

i would disagree with these:

In fact, you are not gong to be killed or imprisoned without at least some due process, flawed or not.

If you are male, you are not going to get conscripted in what is practically a slave army.

that aerotech quest proves otherwise about that whole due process thing, and we also know the NCR is not above torture either. sure you can say it's an isolated incident (Captain Parker going Judge Dredd) but then you have to concede that it can happen, and if it happened in aerotech so casually then it most certainly can be extrapolated to be something that happens frequently, especially considering Captain Parker's attitude does not change whatsoever after he murders the civilian nor does he make any remark about his behavior.

As for conscription: the NCR soldiers may not be drafted but most of them are there because of need and desperation, in fact I can't even remember a single NCR soldier who says he is doing it out of patroitism, as even the elite units who did not join out of need only talk about wanting things like vengeance or that their skills lie in the domain of warfare and thus they are there; never anything about love of country.

also, once again, the farms the NCR has begun in the mojave are being worked by displaced republic citizens who are there because they literally have no other choice; either go to the frontier and work a farm or die of hunger in the republic. if they do this to their civilians then it stands to reason that they do the same or worse to bolster their military ranks.

yes, this is not the equivalent of forced military service (which, btw, a lot of modern countries actually still practice), but it's the other side of the same coin.

While individuals may snap (which is what happened when he tried to arrest the guy) or make immoral choices, NCR as a whole does not condone these actions. NCR at least pretends to have ideals and occasionally even lives up to them. Now compare that to the Legion, that definitely does condone mass murder of civilians as terror tactics.

As for the economy and enlisting - conflicting info. Cass does say its easy to get a job on one of the ranches or mills. And even if it is not, it sure as hell beats being a slave soldier or an actual slave.

 

[Zero Credibility]

But so does fucking NCR back home, only without all the baggage of being murderous slavers.

They do not. This is what makes the Legion so noteworthy. There are no fucking raiders or wasteland filth in Legion territory. Only Legion. Doesn't that merchant mention that he travels without a guard on their roads?

Yeah, they do - back home in California, just like the Legion. Cass says so, they eliminated raiders, driven off the gangs. It's safe and boring there.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Caesar's Legion as presented in the game is:

• Opposed to advanced technology
• Opposed to drugs/alcohol
• Opposed to prostitution
• Opposed to gambling
• Misogynist (with the caveat that the men are forcibly conscripted)
  
• Pro-slavery, to the point of enslaving many of those they conquer
• Supportive of torture and execution, on a mass scale
  
• Strictly hierarchical, being a military organization
• Stated in dialogue with Cass and Raul to have established order and peace for the non-Legion population in the areas they control, but this isn't actually shown in the game
• Constructed as a response to the circumstances of unifying primitive tribes in Arizona (dialogue with Caesar makes this clear), which are quite different from the circumstances of the New Vegas region much less the NCR proper
• Intended by Caesar to be transformed into a proper state after the conquest of New Vegas, but it is implied that the Legion will dissolve through in-fighting shortly after his death, and Caesar is an old man even if the Courier saves him from his brain tumor (if not, Caesar is already dead before the end of the game, and the Legion falls into the hands of a brute)

Due to the fact that the player never actually experiences life under the control of the Legion, as opposed to the Legion's actions while at war with a territory they aim to conquer, there's little to recommend the Legion to the player-character unless the PC happens to share the Legion's predilections (support for hierarchy, torture, execution, slavery; dislike for technology, drugs/alcohol, prostitution, gambling, women). Even if the PC wants to prevent both the NCR and Mr. House from controlling the Mojave, there's always the independent New Vegas option, where the PC will shape the destiny of the region.

 

[boot]

No, doesn't she also say that the NCR tries to put their dick into everything, and that they barely control the areas that they do? There must be a reason merchants prefer to travel over Legion roads. If not, then they have no redeeming qualities.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I think she was talking about Mojave, where they are so understaffed and underequipped they cannot protect their supply routes. Current president is pushing this war to secure the Dam and New Vegas, but can't afford politically to commit to it in full force. For example, in talking with the old ranger you can learn that the NCR elite power armor troops are being held in California to protect cattle barons interests instead of being deployed on the front. NCR home territory in California is supposed to be just as safe as that of the Legion in Arizona.

 

[aweigh]

hell the current president can't even afford to bring more than 3 NPCs to the meeting:D

 

[Sigourn]

I'd rather simply make a mod which makes all chems/stimpacks weigh 50 lbs.

that way you can only carry a few of these items, and you're not reduced to LARPing. making a mod like this literally takes less than 5 minutes if you download one which already edits these items (Like MTC's weighted chems) and just load it up in the CS and tweak the values.

While it is a solution, it conflicts with the idea of being able to carry more than six stimpaks at any one time. My solution makes much sense: it's substituting an inexisting mechanic with LARPing, all while achieving the exact same effect.

 

[Vorark]

But that's why we got the best option, which is Mr. House.

Your points about the NCR are spot on too.

 

[Black Angel]

If it was simply NCR vs Legion, of course I would back the NCR. But that's why we got the best option, which is Mr. House.

Eggxactly

Also, I think you're being too hard on Hanlon. It was Hanlon that win the First Battle of Hoover Dam for the NCR, but he was held back from finishing the job (most likely by General Wait-and-See Oliver), and thus the war gets to him as he can only stand by and watch the good people being sent to their deaths in long-dragged campaign. If you support Mr. House (and Independent, of course), Hanlon would later denounce Kimball and Oliver and was then elected Senator of Redding. This, I think, is the best ending for the NCR.

 

[Quillon]

But that's why we got the best option, which is Mr. House.

Best option is Courier Six who solved all the problems in Mojave in no time. Courier Six is the greatest human of 23th century.

 

[laclongquan]

The Legion is the best proof that as long as you have a snazzy uniform ("american football style") you can always find enough fanboys to cover for your misdeeds.

The game show, not tell you, show that Legion's tactic consist of nailing living people on the cross so they can die terrible death, so much that a bullet to the skull is mercy killing. It show, not tell you, that Legion selling people into slavery wholesale... It show you that even the highest commander can get burning alive. That is actually NOT a good point as some would try to argue. The key part is not in "commander", but "burning alive". Please note the importance, yes. It's the barbaric atrocities that set Legion apart from NCR.

And the fuckers still try dress up and prettify Legion. :heh:

I dont give a shit how you blemish NCR in order to raise Legion up.