What did New Vegas DO WRONG? / Would isometric New Vegas with finished content be GOAT?

[Trashos]

...

OK, hard difficulty should be enough, in hardcore mode at least.

Agreed, one has to be very careful with NV mods (even mods that claim to merely fix bugs), because most modders are casual players and don't know what they are doing. That said, there are very good modders too, but one has to search for them.

On NV & PoE. One is a classless system and the other is a class-based system, so you are comparing two very different beasts. I thought PoE was good enough (remember that I haven't played the expansions), but it was no Shadows of Amn (I am talking about Bioware's original BG2, I don't know what Beamdog has done to it). I remember that after my first 2 PoE playthroughs I never died any more, and it was a bit insulting how even dragons needed support troops in order to be effective.

On the other hand, NV improved on the early Fallouts' classless system by making nearly all the skills useful (useless skills was FO2's greatest fault, afaic). Combat became shittier, but what can you do. At any rate, to me PoE is a 7/10 game, while NV is a 9/10 game, even though I generally prefer RTwP to FPS.

 

[ilitarist]

Yes, class system is one of the things that help with the balancing. Plus party system. If you imagine Fallout NV as a party game (somehow) then of course you'd need all the types of characters. Or if you'd select some specific more or less balanced class at the beginning it'd probably work too.

Sad how Obsidian re-added Survival (IIRC it was there in F1 but was absent from F2 & 3) and it's probably the most useless skill even in hardcore. Why is Unarmed a separate skill is also a mystery to me.

And again, it's regrettable you burned out on vanilla PoE, though it's strange to me you've started 3rd playthrough of the game you didn't like that much. 3.0 really made the combat better even if you don't touch the expansions.

 

[aweigh]

rule of thumb when looking for mods for a game that has a lot of them: 95% of them are all shit.

When I was "researching" mods for F: NV last time I literally went through every single page of all mods under "Gameplay/Tweaks" section of the Nexus.

It took me about 2 days of doing this (though at the time I had the benefit of being able to do it while at work as well, since at that time I was working IT at a college campus, i.e. had nothing to do).

Anyway my point is that if a mod is very very popular it is PROBABLY UTTER SHIT. The flipside to this is if the game as very FEW MODS then whatever mod is very popular is probably good (such as PoE's IEmod).

I actually ended up making most of my own mods for FNV, simply because finding something as simple as lowering accuracy of VATS Head Shots proved almost impossible, so I would just download existing mods that edited VATS and then I would tweak that mod to the values I wanted.

(Reducing head shots accuracy in VATS by around 25% is another simple tweak that makes combat not become broken).

EDIT: In the end, though, after playing F: NV through 7 times if/when I replay it again (getting a serious itch to do it) I'm almost definitely not gonna use anything at all besides Sawyer mod and bugfixes.

The game itself doesn't need anything really it is a perfect example of a game that is greater than the sum of its parts and I honestly can't think of any single mod that is absolutely "essential".

 

[anvi]

Another thing that bugs me about NV and (and other Fallouts) is that some people want to play as an energy weapons guy, or an explosives guy, so all the weapons have to be balanced for that. And for that reason, they are weak. I toss a grenade and it goes pop rather than BOOOOOOOOOOM! You can't have it both ways, they removed the RPG depth so it can't be in the name of tactical depth because there is none. They made an action game, yet it isn't a fun action game. Look at something like Doom, there was a gun called the BFG9000 which killed every single enemy in an entire area. But you only got limited ammo of it, so you would save it for the right moment. Games like Fallout can't have anything like that because it needs to cater to the "my playstile iz using teh BFG as main wepon" and various other dumbass forms of gameplay. It basically tries to do too much with not enough budget and talent to back it up.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Starting with a disclaimer that yes, I need to play more of New Vegas, my initial impressions when it released were:

Extremely underwhelming.

Maybe not extremely, but years later when I saw how highly regarded it is on these forums and others, I was scratching my head.

When I first played (upon release, on the Xbox 360, don't @ me), the game was cool. I was a fan of Beth's stuff and Fallout 3, and not quite diving deeply into traditional CRPGs as much yet (that would come later.)

I finished New Vegas in roughly 60 hours IIRC. In that time, I remember distinctly feeling as if I had seen EVERYTHING the game had to offer. I couldn't find a new quest to do!

I admit, I missed Jacobstown completely on the map. But I remember scouring that map (which felt cramped and small, even then) looking for content, zipping around with fast travel, and just couldn't find it.

Now, maybe I was a CRPG Dummy at the time and missed a ton of subtle things. That is certainly possible. But the game just felt small to me, and with less things to see and do than Fallout 3 before it (pre-DLC as well, I never played those.)

So yes, I need to play more of the game, that is for sure, so I can see this amazing CRPG that is there according to people. But I hope there is some mod to increase difficulty, because if there's one thing I can't play nowadays is an easy RPG.

 

[aweigh]

maybe you should just play doom?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

maybe you should just play doom?

I love DOOM. The originals, not that new thing.

 

[aweigh]

I meant anvi, the poster above you.

He's been going on for half this thread about how FNV sucks because he can't rocket jump like in Doom or some shit.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I meant anvi, the poster above you.

He's been going on for half this thread about how FNV sucks because he can't rocket jump like in Doom or some shit.

Well you know what? After ELEX I'm not sure if I can play a new open-world RPG without a jetpack. Or at least some sort of vertical exploration. So if some new, New Vegas 2 comes out, or Elder Scrolls VI, it best damn well have a jetpack or levitation.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

anvi makes an interesting point, though. At least about grenades/energy weapons/etc. ammo. Those guns/things should be very powerful (non-scaled, as the rest of the world should be), do massive damage but in turn be very hard to find. Just like in Gothic, where you could find a very rare, well-hidden Fire Rain scroll, destroy everything on screen instantly when you were still lower level and then explore whatever they were "guarding" well before you should have really been able to.

I'd prefer that approach too, I think.

 

[Black Angel]

Hanlon was sabotaging information and leading to the deaths of his own comrades. He did that because he believed the current NCR operation in the Mojave was inherently flawed (which it is) and so it would be far better for the NCR to get back home and prepare for a proper round 2. What he did was very wrong, even if I understand why he did it.

I think that ironically, not winning (and not losing to the Legion) is the best ending for the NCR. NCR victory = The Expansionist Jingoes win - General Lee Oliver, Kimball, Cassandra Moore, etc, end up as heroes while the voices of reason like Halon and Hsu lose voice. NCR will win, which means they will continue doing what they do over and over, and not learn anything from this. Independent or House ending may actually be better for the Republic on the long run. It might conquer the East anyway, once Caesar bites it, but this time doing it right.

I actually don't remember anyone dying because of Hanlon's shenanigans, since the falsified report doesn't do anything to divert the attention from the real threat, but actually exaggerated it to the point of ridiculousness. But while Hanlon's intention might have been to push NCR to get back home, it was also to keep his comrades on alert and at their toes all the time (basically so they wouldn't let their guard down).

And yeah, preaching to the choir, Independent/House endings are actually the best for the NCR so that way Hanlon would actually man up to call out on Kimball and Oliver, instead of retiring to obscurity and letting those hacks corrupting the nation.

 

[aweigh]

RPGs are about abstraction not realism. Why is an Elminage Brawler able to deal more damage with knuckles than a Hunter with a Swift Attack critical hit? Why does a PoE Sabre deal more damage than a Longsword, especially since there is no targeting mechanic? I'm fairly sure a Longsword thrust to the gut is equally as deadly as a Sabre slash to the neck, perhaps even more so since it would also incapacitate.

My point is that people only take issue with this kind of stuff in weapon balancing in RPGs that feature modern day "realistic" weaponry.

"Oh, this grenade didn't blow up the enemies like I expected a grenade to do so! It's so dumb I can punch harder than my rocket launcher!"

Why? Because the combat is driven by the attribute and skill systems (and class, in other games), because it is an RPG, it is not DOOM. Otherwise there would be no point in having a character development system since the only goal would be getting the Fat Man.

As for whether there should be fewer items with more impact, like your Fire Rain scroll example, that's a matter of itemization mostly. Some games have much better itemization th an others.

Obsidian hasn't traditionally been known as particularly adept at itemization in their RPGs, although I think they did fine with FNV. Itemization is a deep subject, equal to encounter design and game balancing, and some people prefer one approach to itemization and others prefer a completely opposite one.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

RPGs are about abstraction not realism. Why is an Elminage Brawler able to deal more damage with knuckles than a Hunter with a Swift Attack critical hit?

Why does a PoE Sabre deal more damage than a Longsword, especially since there is no targeting mechanic? I'm fairly sure a Longsword thrust to the gut is equally as deadly as a Sabre slash to the neck, perhaps even more so since it would also incapacitate.

My point is that people only take issue with this kind of stuff in weapon balancing in RPGs that feature modern day "realistic" weaponry.

"Oh, this grenade didn't blow up the enemies like I expected a grenade to do so! It's so dumb I can punch harder than my rocket launcher!"

Why? Because the combat is driven by the attribute and skill (and class, in other games), because it is an RPG, it is not DOOM.

Otherwise there would be no point in having a character development system since the only goal would be getting the Fat Man.

I agree with you, mostly, except the "goal would only be getting the Fat Man". It wouldn't be the goal if the Fat Man had such scarce ammo that you only had 2 shots with it, etc..

Ultimately I greatly prefer RPG stats and numbers and I'm fine with the abstraction, just like you are. I want pen-and-paper numbers affecting combat even if it's a first-person RPG with guns, like Vampire: Bloodlines, etc..

But I think finding very powerful relics and items early on in well-hidden spots in RPGs is an underused thing. I loved in Gothic being able to wipe out a group of Rippers at low level, even if I knew I was using (or "wasting") my only rare, expensive Fire Rain scroll to do so (and thus being rewarded with a chest with an extra generous amount of gold or something cool in it for my effort.)

 

[Trashos]

Are you guys serious? If you want your explosives to be more effective, just put points in your explosives skill. Is that so hard to do?

 

[aweigh]

I added a little bit at the end after the Fat Man thing concerning itemization (your scarcity example).

Obsidian's approach to itemization is essentially a cautious one where they spread the game's player items thin and try to cover all possible bases, diametrically opposite to how Gothic approaches itemization where there is an intentional focus on scarcity; Obsidian then "makes sure" that too many items won't break the game by doing repeated balance passes until eventually there comes an inevitable point where people start complaining that all these tools "feel the same".

It's actually something incredibly similar to how balancing player characters in Fighting Games works! A fighting game's roster has to be huge nowadays, 20 characters on launch or so, and do you know how fucking hard it is to give 20 characters 4-6 (or more) special moves, let alone each character's dozens of normal attacks, and then fucking make sure that they're all balanced?

It's a fucking nightmare.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Are you guys serious? If you want your explosives to be more effective, just put points in your explosives skills. Is that so hard to do?

That still doesn't address my point. In Gothic you could fire a Fire Rain scroll. Or hell, Fireball even (200 damage IIRC), at any level since loot was hand-placed. So if you saw some Dragon Snapper lurking around a cave (hypothetical example), you could set it alight with the Fireball scroll, kill it much earlier than you "should be able to" (no level-scaling, remember? Your dude would get eaten alive in one shot if he tried to attack it otherwise), and then loot the contents of either the enemy or whatever was in the cave.

Replace Fire Rain with Energy Blast Grenades or whatever.

Underused mechanic, right there. But it requires worlds to be built like Gothic was, which sadly never happens today (other than ELEX, which is similar to some degree. ELEX takes it about 80% to as close you can get today with a world that size yet still being hand-placed and lacking level-scaling.)

 

[aweigh]

Loot is handplaced in FNV too. Like I already said what you're talking about is simply two different approaches to itemization. ELEX will obviously share similarity to Gothic because it's from the same devs. I also already mentioned that PB and Obsi take diametrically opposed approaches to itemization and weapon balance in their games.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Loot is handplaced in FNV too. Like I already said what you're talking about is simply two different approaches to itemization. ELEX will obviously share similarity to Gothic because it's from the same devs. I also already mentioned that PB and Obsi take diametrically opposed approaches to itemization and weapon balance in their games.

All loot in chests is hand-placed, too? ELEX is the only huge open-world (probably larger than New Vegas as well) that hand-places 100% of loot in every chest that I know of. I could be wrong, though.

But yeah, they are different approaches, no doubt. I just wish Gothic/ELEX's approach was used more often. I like how it adds unpredictability and a sense of realism to the world. The Gothic Formula is a severely underused RPG design, not only in modern RPGs but in any era (I wish devs would study Gothic and try doing more of the things that that game did.)

 

[aweigh]

Also your Dragon Snapper example can be easily replicated in F:NV by simply going north once the game begins. If you stray off the beaten path in F:NV you will die, but it can be done and it can be done by utilizing all your tools, exactly as you describe.

There are also many places where the game offers a much more dangerous alternative route from the Yellow Brick Road main quest-line geography, such as the Primm Pass which allows you to bypass Nipton but only if you manage to get through the Primm Pass which is guarded by a Blind Deathclaw.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Obsidian's approach to itemization is essentially a cautious one where they spread the game's player items thin and try to cover all possible bases, diametrically opposite to how Gothic approaches itemization where there is an intentional focus on scarcity; Obsidian then "makes sure" that too many items won't break the game by doing repeated balance passes until eventually there comes an inevitable point where people start complaining that all these tools "feel the same".

Yup. What you folks around here call The Josh Sawyer Effect.

Can't say I like that approach as much as Gothic's. Sure, it balances the game well and good, but I prefer "messy playgrounds" of RPG stuff like Arcanum, Morrowind and games like that. They reward creativity much more, IMO.

 

[aweigh]

The thing to note, though, is that Obsidian set out to make a Fallout game not an Open World Sandbox game. This is a very important disctinction. They were stuck with having to work within FO3, so they did their best.

This is why FNV's open world is so different to every other game of this type, with Points of Interest always within literal eyesight.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Also your Dragon Snapper example can be easily replicated in F:NV by simply going north once the game begins. If you stray off the beaten path in F:NV you will die, but it can be done and it can be done by utilizing all your tools, exactly as you describe.

There are also many places where the game offers a much more dangerous alternative route from the Yellow Brick Road main quest-line geography, such as the Primm Pass which allows you to bypass Nipton but only if you manage to get through the Primm Pass which is guarded by a Blind Deathclaw.

New Vegas from my vague recollection was probably 25% of the Gothic style of world, though. ELEX is way better in this area (granted, it came out several years after NV as well.)

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

The thing to note, though, is that Obsidian set out to make a Fallout game not an Open World Sandbox game. This is a very important disctinction. They were stuck with having to work within FO3, so they did their best.

This is why FNV's open world is so different to every other game of this type, with Points of Interest always within literal eyesight.

I may revisit F:NV with the DLC, and maybe that Sawyer Hardcore mod. (I think that's the one?) No time right now but someday I'll do it. The way I hear people praise it makes me think that I missed something my first time around.

 

[Trashos]

Dont quote me on this but doesnt the ashpiles causing problems? Something about the game clean up the bodies, but it doesnt recognize the ashes as something of that category. SO a long game with EW cause problem. I remember that I dont use much EW because of that. Also because it critically cut up the body which I dont like.

This has been fixed by mods (and I am not sure if it was already fixed in the ultimate edition). There is still the headshot achievement bug, where you repeatedly get 100 XP for headshots with energy weapons, which has never been fixed. There is a mod that disables the achievement, at least.

And again, it's regrettable you burned out on vanilla PoE, though it's strange to me you've started 3rd playthrough of the game you didn't like that much. 3.0 really made the combat better even if you don't touch the expansions.

I did 5 playthroughs of PoE. 7/10 is not that bad, and it's not like there are many good RTwP games to play. But after that I preferred playing BG2 again. I did reach v3 IIRC. The patches worked on the base game too. Many of the trash mobs were gone, which was nice, but they were not replaced by something more interesting.

There was no survival skill in the early Fallouts. You could get irradiated or poisoned, which you could deal with by using RadX/Radaway/Antidote, and that was it.

 

[Trashos]

Are you guys serious? If you want your explosives to be more effective, just put points in your explosives skills. Is that so hard to do?

That still doesn't address my point. In Gothic you could fire a Fire Rain scroll. Or hell, Fireball even (200 damage IIRC), at any level since loot was hand-placed. So if you saw some Dragon Snapper lurking around a cave (hypothetical example), you could set it alight with the Fireball scroll, kill it much earlier than you "should be able to" (no level-scaling, remember? Your dude would get eaten alive in one shot if he tried to attack it otherwise), and then loot the contents of either the enemy or whatever was in the cave.

Replace Fire Rain with Energy Blast Grenades or whatever.

Underused mechanic, right there. But it requires worlds to be built like Gothic was, which sadly never happens today (other than ELEX, which is similar to some degree. ELEX takes it about 80% to as close you can get today with a world that size yet still being hand-placed and lacking level-scaling.)

In Gothic, you were also useless in any main weapon until you dropped points in it. Which I applaud. Out of all people, I would never have expected a Gothics fan to complain about useless weapons when not invested in.