What did New Vegas DO WRONG? / Would isometric New Vegas with finished content be GOAT?

[Deleted Member 16721]

Are you guys serious? If you want your explosives to be more effective, just put points in your explosives skills. Is that so hard to do?

That still doesn't address my point. In Gothic you could fire a Fire Rain scroll. Or hell, Fireball even (200 damage IIRC), at any level since loot was hand-placed. So if you saw some Dragon Snapper lurking around a cave (hypothetical example), you could set it alight with the Fireball scroll, kill it much earlier than you "should be able to" (no level-scaling, remember? Your dude would get eaten alive in one shot if he tried to attack it otherwise), and then loot the contents of either the enemy or whatever was in the cave.

Replace Fire Rain with Energy Blast Grenades or whatever.

Underused mechanic, right there. But it requires worlds to be built like Gothic was, which sadly never happens today (other than ELEX, which is similar to some degree. ELEX takes it about 80% to as close you can get today with a world that size yet still being hand-placed and lacking level-scaling.)

In Gothic, you were also useless in any main weapon until you dropped points in it. Which I applaud. Out of all people, I would never have expected a Gothics fan to complain about useless weapons when not invested in.

Who complained about "useless weapons when not invested in"? You don't have to invest anything to use a Fire Rain scroll, which is the whole point. Just like you don't need to invest to use grenades in ELEX (although there are 2 levels of the Grenade skill that increase damage with them. However, anyone can throw them and they do great damage for the early to early-middle parts of the game. But they are expensive and an overall very expensive way to fight.)

anvi's point (I think) which I agree with is that these weapons shouldn't just be a normal playstyle, i.e. I'm going to be solely a grenade slinger or use plasma weapons or the BFG9000 as my main gun. These types of powerful weapon options should be rarer yet more rewarding in damage output. A supplement to the main damage of the more common weapons you'll be using, in essence, with rarer ammo. Something you bust out in a jam, like the BFG9000, but that you also have to save the ammo for and conserve.

Which I feel is an underused element in RPGs, and not a bad idea at all.

 

[Trashos]

Who complained about "useless weapons when not invested in"? You don't have to invest anything to use a Fire Rain scroll, which is the whole point. Just like you don't need to invest to use grenades in ELEX (although there are 2 levels of the Grenade skill that increase damage with them. However, anyone can throw them and they do great damage for the early to early-middle parts of the game. But they are expensive and an overall very expensive way to fight.)

Explosives in NV are a main build. They couldn't work any other way, because then there would be no explosives build.

At any rate, pulse weapons and explosives do standard damage on robots, so there is that.

 

[ilitarist]

I've checked it: there was Outdoorsman skill in Fallout 1, Fallout 2 and Fallout Tactics.

Funny they've brought back that skill in FNV and not Gambling. I'd understand not bringing it if they'd have no relations between stats and minigames at all but you still have Luck influencing casino games to a huge extent.

In Gothic, you were also useless in any main weapon until you dropped points in it. Which I applaud. Out of all people, I would never have expected a Gothics fan to complain about useless weapons when not invested in.

I too really dislike that approach that makes you proficient in everything but allows you to become cooler in some things. I think this clearly means you're dealing with an action game with RPG elements instead of RPG. That's part of my problem with Fallout NV: it's still occasionally useful to use many skills (explosives, repair, melee, stealth) even if you know nothing about them. Diablo sometimes feels like more of an RPG than many modern games.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Who complained about "useless weapons when not invested in"? You don't have to invest anything to use a Fire Rain scroll, which is the whole point. Just like you don't need to invest to use grenades in ELEX (although there are 2 levels of the Grenade skill that increase damage with them. However, anyone can throw them and they do great damage for the early to early-middle parts of the game. But they are expensive and an overall very expensive way to fight.)

Explosives in NV are a main build. They couldn't work any other way, because then there would be no explosives build.

At any rate, pulse weapons and explosives do standard damage on robots, so there is that.

If they choose to make an "explosives build" a viable playstyle then IMO it should be more of a risk/reward thing. More impacting, less "everyday balanced". So maybe you have to hang on to your explosives, not use them in every battle, and have another main type of damage. Yet the reward would be much more powerful explosives for tougher fights. But you'd also have to conserve the ammo more and pick and choose when to use them.

The itemization/design thing is true. These types of games seem more balanced to "do whatever you want" yet aweigh is right that all builds start to feel the same, ultimately deal the same damage and not have many unique perks or gameplay C&C to each one.

 

[Trashos]

I am confused here. Are we complaining that it's too much RPG and not enough action, or the other way around? Are we complaining that weapons are useless when no skills are invested in them, or that they are too strong even with no skill?

Oh dear, this is what Obsidian had to deal with.

 

[ilitarist]

I am confused here. Are we complaining that it's too much RPG and not enough action, or the other way around? Are we complaining that weapons are useless when no skills are invested in them, or that they are too strong even with no skill?

Oh dear, this is what Obsidian had to deal with.

We're talking more about solutions than problems.

The problem is that I can take your character and play it my way and I'll be fine. I'd play as stealthy gunner who sometimes throws grenades or leaves mines cause I think it's the best way to play the game. One my ask then why isn't this game like Far Cry 3? That game has the same approach too, you can play stealth/sniper/gunner/heavy and perks improve that stuff. Or one can ask why can't it be like most other RPGs, forcing you to chose speciality.

 

[Mexi]

They did virtually nothing wrong. It's one of those games where the only real mods I need to add are JSawyer and patches, that's it. Pretty much 2 patches is all and maybe a graphics update. It's almost the perfect game. Only two games that are better are the first two Fallouts.

 

[Haplo]

Didn't repurpose/redesign the quest/enemy compass.
Not enough environmental interactivity; characterbuild based nor otherwise.
It didn't alter VATS enough.
Gunplay (and related character progression) relied too much on damage and too little on accuracy.
Combat itself was too spongy.
Too few practical differences between guns and EW, and melee and HtH, to make a clear distinction.
Too little Legion content.

I'm sure there's something else too.

This.

And
It's not turn based.
Stats mean very little compared with the classic Fallouts.
There are no critical hit tables and much less crit animation variation.
Environments look much worse then in Fallout 3.

A solid effort for an FPS with stats.
But a far cry off the classic Fallouts.
7/10

 

[Trashos]

We're talking more about solutions than problems.

The problem is that I can take your character and play it my way and I'll be fine. I'd play as stealthy gunner who sometimes throws grenades or leaves mines cause I think it's the best way to play the game. One my ask then why isn't this game like Far Cry 3? That game has the same approach too, you can play stealth/sniper/gunner/heavy and perks improve that stuff. Or one can ask why can't it be like most other RPGs, forcing you to chose speciality.

I haven't played Far Cry, so I can't comment on its system. Unless I am missing something, the quick answer is that NV used a classless system like the early Fallouts did. A lot of people prefer classless systems for RPGs that are based on 1 character, because they offer the most flexibility during the course of the game. I happen to be one of them. Sawyer, despite being the lead designer of PoE, prefers classless systems to class-based ones period. I do agree with you that class-based is better for team oriented games, but I prefer classless for lone character games.

Btw, the Outdoorsman skill in the early Fallouts was nothing like Survival. It had to do with random encounters. Unimportantly, it also dealt with dehydration, but dehydration was also a random effect (and it was so rare and easy to deal with, that it was practically irrelevant).

 

[Black Angel]

This is why FNV's open world is so different to every other game of this type, with Points of Interest always within literal eyesight.

Iirc, this is actually Bethesda's school of design for Open-World that they demanded for Obsidian to abide. Basically, in Beth's Open World games, every time the player reach a landmark, at least 3 landmarks has to be visible from this landmark. Might need to find citation for this, though, since I only know this from a guy from NMA.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I am confused here. Are we complaining that it's too much RPG and not enough action, or the other way around? Are we complaining that weapons are useless when no skills are invested in them, or that they are too strong even with no skill?

Oh dear, this is what Obsidian had to deal with.

We're talking more about solutions than problems.

The problem is that I can take your character and play it my way and I'll be fine. I'd play as stealthy gunner who sometimes throws grenades or leaves mines cause I think it's the best way to play the game.

Yep, that almost gets to the crux of the issue to me. And to answer your question Trashos, all these things should be RPG-based, but hear this out.

If I want to be an "explosives build", for example, then getting a hold of good explosives should take work. They should be difficult and more expensive to craft with rarer components. However, the explosives in the game would be powerful, as in not level-scaled. There should be a skill that increases your skill with explosives to make them better, stronger, less expensive to craft and so on. But if I find a BFG9000 and a plasma cell pack, it damn well should kill everything on screen. If I later invest into "Energy Weapons", I'll "learn" how to aim it better or focus it's beam to do much more damage.

But even if I found it at level 2 tucked away in some hard-to-reach area, it should still pretty much destroy things, albeit in one glorious use of my ammo (which would be very, very scarce to find. Again, see the Fire Rain scroll example.)

A build really shouldn't be there just for the sake of it. There should be a risk, a reward, a challenge, a trade-off, advantages and disadvantages. Maybe if I want to build my explosives tinkerer, for most battles I'd have to resort to using a weaker weapon that doesn't take a ton of training, like a pistol or something. Then, emergent gameplay would come from that, in that now I have to decide when and how to use my precious and powerful explosives. It simultaneously gives the characters more personality, uniqueness and distinction as well.

 

[Trashos]

...

All right, I get you. You 'll be glad to know that NV includes a lot of weaponry or consumables that are strong but have to be used sparingly. Personally, I don't like such mechanics (it's like the game is trying to help me), but since you like it here are some examples from the game:

Spoiler

- Certain weapons are very strong, but have very expensive or heavy ammo.
- There are consumables (magazines, chems, drinks, food) that are very rare and so they have to be used sparingly. Importantly, stealth boys are very powerful tactically but very rare. Also, lockpicking magazines.
- There is a certain energy weapon that is extremely powerful but with very limited ammunition. It is also only available under very strict conditions.

And possibly a lot of other such things that I haven't paid attention to. So I think NV will satisfy you in this respect.

 

[anvi]

maybe you should just play doom?

I played Doom to death as a kid. And that was after Wolf3d that was basically the same thing. And 2 expansions. And then Doom 2. Then Quake. Then Quake 2, Quake 3, Doom 3, and a bunch of others. FPS was dead to me by about 1995.

System Shock would have been a better example, that had powerful weapons but limited ammo too. And they had a purpose too. That's how a game should be designed.

 

[aweigh]

Trashos Black Angel Haplo Shackleton Siveon Lilura

So I just now began a brand new F: NV game with the following shit:

- JSawyer "Ultimate" Mod
- The "YUP Fix Pack" which is required for the "Ultimate" version of Sawyer's loving touch

I don't know if the following options were already in the default JSawyer mod or if they are additions for the "Ultimate" edition (ugh), but I was blown away (i.e. mildly surprised in a satisfactory manner) that it includes toggable options for:

- Reducing backwards walking speed (saved me the trouble of finding one again, and/or making my own!)


Very pleasantly surprised and satisfied that open was in there. I raised the level cap to 35 though, (another in-game option for the "Ultimate" version of Sawyer's modifications), as I just find 30 too low. I'm a powah-gameh almost-munchkin and I needz my OP char that will completely trivialize the last 1/3 of the game's content.

Thinking of raising it to 40, even, but I'lm gonna leave it at 35 for now. Don't know If I'll actually finish this playthrough but I do want to add some mods that I was never able to actually run properly due to my previous Shitty PC Rig on which I originally played FNV 12 times back in the day.

Mods that killed my old toaster but now I want to use just because my rig can now handle the shit:

- That one mod which completely removes all segreations/loading areas/etc from the Strip/Freeside and makes the entire fucking area(s) just completely open and unified with the only loading screens present being when you enter a building. Always wanted to try this one out but it absolutely was above my previous rig's abilities.

- That one mod (I think one among several) which basically adds a fuck-ton of civilian (and optionally/additionally) also: guards of all factions, caraven NPCs, prospecters, etc, etc. I tried using that shit on my previous AMD piece of shit machine and thing almost blew up, but I might as well try it out now! I mean...

There's just nothing better than murdering your frame-rate for the sole benefit of having a shit load of NPCs that contribute no dialog, quests or meaningful interactivity and serve only to traipse around the game world and (sometimes) doing something cool like fighting each other (and then glitching the fuck out because duh, modders gonna mod).

Any other recommendations for this, my absolutely last and final playthrough of this RPG?

I'm not especially looking for recommendations which do drastic changes to game play as I love F: NV game play, warts and all; but rather misc. stuff like the shit I just outlined above, stuff that doesn't really contribute anything meaningful to the game but it can be argued that it would certainly make this final run "more flavored".

EDIT: I just remembered I absolutely need something to slow down my XP gain; since the level cap is 35, I will almost certainly reach it half-way through the game. AFAIK the JSawyer mod doesn't slow that down, right?

If it does, then yay, never mind.

BTW, my final playthrough build:

10 STR (game's indisputably greatest "Perk" is the simple fact that the more items you can carry with you at any given moment, the more exponentially powerful you are; essentially F: NV operates under the same rules THE BATMAN does, which is: always be prepared.

8 PER

2 ENDURANCE (who needs health, just don't get hit, hyuk hyuk)

1 CHARISMA (no brainer, since only reason for this is to get Animal Friend perk, which is only a convenience)

10 INT (duh)

10 AGI (duh)

1 LUCK (every single build of mine has always had 10 luck for purposes of breaking the combat via head shot crits; for this final journey... I will, uh, not do that I guess?)

TRAITS:

Trigger Discipline: Why? Because...

- TD adds a flat +20% additive value to all of your shots made inside VATS, and while this may seem good-but-not-great since putting even just 50 pts into gun skills will get you up to 80+ percent ACCURACY already...

...I discovered that the +20% flat addition makes enemies that have low ACC, such as:
a) Miniguns
b) Energy-type Miniguns
c) Explosives and their ilk

Suddenly become completely and almost OP-level of lethal. Essentially with TD you can expect to get 50-60 % ACCURACY percentages when targeting Head/Limbs with weapons like the Avenger/normal-Miniguns, and that is not something to sneeze at.

You can literally use Minuguns/Avenger CZ to snipe fools with TD.

 

[aweigh]

Oh, the 2nd Trait I picked was Skilled. Boring, but everything else either sucks balls or is for Crit builds which mine is not. And for anyone wondering why not go with Fast Shot (which can potentially break the game, but not as badly as it does so in FO1/2) well...

I'd rather rarely/almost never miss, even when using shit like Miniguns, and also be able to use low-ACCURACY weapons to pseudo-snipe or go for head-shots RATHER THAN be able to fire much faster in real time.

I'm not sure if FS affects VATS, I *think* maybe FS decreases AP consumption? If that is actually how it works It's a GREAT perk to pick, but I don't think it does work that way (affecting VATS) since if it did work that way then the indisputably best Trait combination would be Fast Shot + Trigger Discipline, because while they would cancel each other out but inside VATS the decreased AP consumption from Fast Shot would then make the combo somewhat worthwhile.

But I repeat, I doubt FS affects AP consumption.

 

[Sigourn]

This is why FNV's open world is so different to every other game of this type, with Points of Interest always within literal eyesight.

Iirc, this is actually Bethesda's school of design for Open-World that they demanded for Obsidian to abide. Basically, in Beth's Open World games, every time the player reach a landmark, at least 3 landmarks has to be visible from this landmark. Might need to find citation for this, though, since I only know this from a guy from NMA.

You don't need to; Sawyer himself siad it in a recent interview while he was playing the game.

 

[Sigourn]

I'm not especially looking for recommendations which do drastic changes to game play as I love F: NV game play, warts and all; but rather misc. stuff like the shit I just outlined above, stuff that doesn't really contribute anything meaningful to the game but it can be argued that it would certainly make this final run "more flavored".

I would tell you to look at my Recommended Mods guide and see which one strikes your fancy. Some of those I cannot live without, but it's best if you decide for yourself.

FYI I played with JSawyer Ultimate, vanilla settings, and was about to hit the level cap in the first DLC once I had done everything else.

 

[razvedchiki]

Jsaywer mod lvl cap is 35 ,don't use ultimate.

Also I recommend fook mod stay away from Nevada.

 

[Trashos]

...

A safe minimum setup is what the JSawyer Ultimate suggests on its description page. (So you may want to load UPP between YUP and JSawyer Ultimate). Personally, I don't recommend YUP until they get their shit together (they are Bethesda fans, and sometimes I wonder if they have played the game at all or just look at tis code), but be prepared that you may need individual fixes if you don't use it.

I also recommend the "Economy Overhaul" mod, by the same guy who did JSawyer Ultimate, if and only if you want to make the economy more challenging (and Barter useful).

Yes, the JSawyer slows down levelling considerably.

Jsaywer mod lvl cap is 35 ,don't use ultimate.

Also I recommend fook mod stay away from Nevada.

What's your beef with JSawyer Ultimate, φίλε, I 'm getting great miles out of it. That modder is very serious with his work.

 

[Trashos]

BTW, my final playthrough build:

10 STR (game's indisputably greatest "Perk" is the simple fact that the more items you can carry with you at any given moment, the more exponentially powerful you are; essentially F: NV operates under the same rules THE BATMAN does, which is: always be prepared.

8 PER

2 ENDURANCE (who needs health, just don't get hit, hyuk hyuk)

1 CHARISMA (no brainer, since only reason for this is to get Animal Friend perk, which is only a convenience)

10 INT (duh)

10 AGI (duh)

1 LUCK (every single build of mine has always had 10 luck for purposes of breaking the combat via head shot crits; for this final journey... I will, uh, not do that I guess?)

My go-to Sniper build is:

Spoiler

STR 5, PE 6, END 7, CHA 1, INT 7, AG 7, LK 7, with 4-eyes and Logan's Loophole. I avoid Skilled because I consider it too good. In OWB one can switch traits once, so I replace Logan's Loophole with Good Natured.

Also, here are some comments on your build, in case you want comments:

Spoiler

There is no much point in having 10s in your initial stats, as you can get +1 implants for each SPECIAL at the Followers Clinic, as long as the number of implants is <=END. So you might want to reduce your 10s to 9s, and up END instead. Also, note that OWB gives you +2 to STR, but that's a long way down the line.

 

[aweigh]

Yeah I completely forgot about the Attribute upgrades. Oh well, whatever, it's not I haven't danced this tango before. I did notice that Sawyer mod apparently changes weight formula because even with my herculean STR of 10 I can only carry a pathetic amount.

I approve :D

BTW, does Dead Money's city area count as "outdoors" for purposes of that Trait which gives you bonuses if you're outside, and additionally inside OWB and DM is it daytime or night-time (for same purposes; the time-of-day trait).

I've never used those before and I kinda wanna make a really crazy build, but if the game doesn't really even react to those traits (i.e. they are de-facto, inarguable wastes of a pick with zero benefits), then I won't bother.

I considered Four Eyes... does the +1 PER from Four Eyes stack on top of 10 PER if you have it?

 

[ilitarist]

In FNV 10 is a hard cap for any stat, it was the same for all games up until F4 IIRC.

 

[Master]

This is why FNV's open world is so different to every other game of this type, with Points of Interest always within literal eyesight.

Iirc, this is actually Bethesda's school of design for Open-World that they demanded for Obsidian to abide. Basically, in Beth's Open World games, every time the player reach a landmark, at least 3 landmarks has to be visible from this landmark. Might need to find citation for this, though, since I only know this from a guy from NMA.

Disgusting. Bethesda is fucking hostile to life.

 

[hivemind]

>a feature is assumed to be an Obsidian design choice
>say nothing
>the same feature is later pointed out as a Bethesda design choice
>complain

based brainlet obsidiadrones

 

[Master]

I complain about Obsidian all the time. They suck. But Bethesda is just fucking evil. Dogs growl and cats hiss when passing nearby level of pure evil.