What do you think about AoD?

[Vault Dweller]

Surely you've noticed that I replied only to a handful of people in this thread, ignoring pretty much all 'negative' posts.

If you don't want to reply to negative posts, why is the title "What do you think of AoD?" and not "Lavish praise upon my masterpiece here!"?

I don't reply to negative posts not because I can't see the monitor through the tears in my eyes, but because there is nothing to say.

- "I didn't like your game. A lot."
- "Ok."

I do read the posts and make mental notes when I see something constructive and objective.

AoD suffers from uninteresting gameplay by design and all attempts to point out what people found lacking have been met with scorn and implications that people who dare complain are simply too stupid to grasp the game.

sigh

First, you present your opinion as it was a fact, pretending that nobody finds the game and its mechanics interesting. Why? Does it make you feel better?

Second, you pretend as if we didn't listen to the feedback (look at the changelog for R2) and the only response to criticism is "fuck you/fuck off", which isn't the case at all. I've argued only about combat difficulty, because it's the only non-subjective area of the game. There is a difference between "the world isn't interesting" and "combat is impossible" or "combat isn't tactical". The former is an opinion you're entitled to, the latter is bullshit.

My impression: It's not bad per se. Just meh.

Ok.

7) Saving up my skill points and then dumping a shitload into them just before I need to pass a check feels counterintuitive. People usually get better to things slowly over time - they don't have a sudden flash of brilliant insight the first time they need to pick a door.

It's your choice to play this way.

Sorry, nothing about the story or setting stands out as terribly memorable. Post-apocalyptic Rome sounds cool in theory, but the end result felt really lifeless.

Ok.

 

[Gord]

VD, what's your opinion on something like the Drama Stars system in Frayed Knights?
Would it be something you'd consider for future games?

I think it's a nice way to encourage people to play without frequent reloads.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, what's your opinion on something like the Drama Stars system in Frayed Knights?
Would it be something you'd consider for future games?

I think it's a nice way to encourage people to play without frequent reloads.

I don't like such systems (drama stars, fate points in Arcanum, etc).

I've always liked roguelikes. They are very different from most RPGs because dying is easy and part of the game. If you play a roguelike once or twice, you won't get far. That's a fact. You're expected to play one many times, slowly learning what kills you and what doesn't. AoD's overall design is very similar. That's why we have teleporting and no filler. You create a character, distribute skill points as you get them, run him/her through the game, see what happens. Sure, the first time you have no idea what to expect (much like in roguelikes), so you'll probably die fast. Fortunately, replaying won't take much time and you won't be forced to do fedex quests and run all over the town. Dialogue check 'synergies' in R2 make failing due to missing a couple of points all but impossible.

 

[Gord]

That begs the question, why all the text?
After the 3nd time or such I'll just click through, bored to death by it.

Ok, it's again my own opinion, but somehow I feel the rogue-like approach to dying and replaying just doesn't fit so well with a story-heavy rpg.

It's one of the things that feel a bit like an inconsistency in your design.

 

[Captain Shrek]

VD, what's your opinion on something like the Drama Stars system in Frayed Knights?
Would it be something you'd consider for future games?

I think it's a nice way to encourage people to play without frequent reloads.

I don't like such systems (drama stars, fate points in Arcanum, etc).

I've always liked roguelikes. They are very different from most RPGs because dying is easy and part of the game. If you play a roguelike once or twice, you won't get far. That's a fact. You're expected to play one many times, slowly learning what kills you and what doesn't. AoD's overall design is very similar. That's why we have teleporting and no filler. You create a character, distribute skill points as you get them, run him/her through the game, see what happens. Sure, the first time you have no idea what to expect (much like in roguelikes), so you'll probably die fast. Fortunately, replaying won't take much time and you won't be forced to do fedex quests and run all over the town. Dialogue check 'synergies' in R2 make failing due to missing a couple of points all but impossible.

But what about the writing?

I see all your arguments are about gameplay. What is also important is the presentation, right? I mean come on, we have people like me who Enjoy stupid games like TW2 here for Christ's sake!

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I don't like such systems (drama stars, fate points in Arcanum, etc).

I've always liked roguelikes. They are very different from most RPGs because dying is easy and part of the game. If you play a roguelike once or twice, you won't get far. That's a fact. You're expected to play one many times, slowly learning what kills you and what doesn't. AoD's overall design is very similar. That's why we have teleporting and no filler. You create a character, distribute skill points as you get them, run him/her through the game, see what happens. Sure, the first time you have no idea what to expect (much like in roguelikes), so you'll probably die fast. Fortunately, replaying won't take much time and you won't be forced to do fedex quests and run all over the town. Dialogue check 'synergies' in R2 make failing due to missing a couple of points all but impossible.

Can AoD be played like a roguelike and still be enjoyed?

 

[Vault Dweller]

That begs the question, why all the text?
After the 3nd time or such I'll just click through, bored to death by it.

I don't expect you to read it all over again. You click through and get to the point where you died. Or you take a different path and do something else.

Ok, it's again my own opinion, but somehow I feel the rogue-like approach to dying and replaying just doesn't fit so well with a story-heavy rpg.

It would be an issue (in my opinion), if the game was linear and didn't have multiple solutions and teleporting. I'm tempted to replay the Witcher, for example, but there is too much running around there (between NPCs) for my taste and the sequences are practically the same.

But what about the writing?

?

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't like such systems (drama stars, fate points in Arcanum, etc).

I've always liked roguelikes. They are very different from most RPGs because dying is easy and part of the game. If you play a roguelike once or twice, you won't get far. That's a fact. You're expected to play one many times, slowly learning what kills you and what doesn't. AoD's overall design is very similar. That's why we have teleporting and no filler. You create a character, distribute skill points as you get them, run him/her through the game, see what happens. Sure, the first time you have no idea what to expect (much like in roguelikes), so you'll probably die fast. Fortunately, replaying won't take much time and you won't be forced to do fedex quests and run all over the town. Dialogue check 'synergies' in R2 make failing due to missing a couple of points all but impossible.

Can AoD be played like a roguelike and still be enjoyed?

'tis a mystary.

 

[Captain Shrek]

But what about the writing?

?

The characters are not fleshed out. They are brusque and tepid. The dialogues are written with stoicism in mind. Characters do have motivations that they make clear to you often, but they seem to have only those motivations and nothing else. The story (narrative) refuses to go ahead. It actually drags a bit. This is probably because I am playing a public beta, but you need to quell that suspicion which is in the mind of a lot of people regarding the game: will it all be like this (dragged) or are we getting more lively characters and stories that form the background? I heard you had some good things to say about Dragon Age : Origins. One thing I liked about the game was its generic Ranger kill Orc lore was atmospheric. Why not develop on that kind of feeling and make me want to know more about the history? It seems that these elemental gods (i forgot their names because I did not care about them BEYOND that one story the storyteller in the tavern told me) are the final driving force of the story. Why not detail that a bit or is that still in progress?

 

[Johannes]

There is a difference between "the world isn't interesting" and "combat is impossible" or "combat isn't tactical". The former is an opinion you're entitled to, the latter is bullshit.

The first is subjective, yes. And it's bullshit that combat would be impossible. But it's also a fact that combat isn't very tactical at all.

 

[Jasede]

This lood angel guy really isn't helping VD.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This is probably because I am playing a public beta...

We aren't planning to add or change anything in Teron.

... but you need to quell that suspicion which is in the mind of a lot of people regarding the game: will it all be like this (dragged) or are we getting more lively characters and stories that form the background?

It will be similar to what you saw in Teron (but with more branching).

Why not develop on that kind of feeling and make me want to know more about the history?

Some people like the setting and the story, some people don't. I don't think I can make it appealing for everyone.

It seems that these elemental gods (i forgot their names because I did not care about them BEYOND that one story the storyteller in the tavern told me) are the final driving force of the story. Why not detail that a bit or is that still in progress?

I didn't want everyone talking about it non-stop. Most people in the setting don't care about what happened in the past and I'd like to keep it this way. However, it's not just one story (in the demo). There are several characters (including Cassius, whom I assume most people killed) who have some info on the subject, which is more than enough, in my opinion.

The first is subjective, yes. And it's bullshit that combat would be impossible. But it's also a fact that combat isn't very tactical at all.

Is it?

 

[Jasede]

Maybe there could be books or records of some kind. More optional backstory always gives a setting a sense of coherence. It needs to emit the vibe that you really thought about this setting and its history, even if you can't find out the truth about it in-game. To do that it helps to have little glimpses into the past of your world, even if they are contradictory. Text-fragments, old scrolls that can be partially translated, rumors, and so on.

Don't hate.

 

[Captain Shrek]

This is probably because I am playing a public beta...

We aren't planning to add or change anything in Teron.

... but you need to quell that suspicion which is in the mind of a lot of people regarding the game: will it all be like this (dragged) or are we getting more lively characters and stories that form the background?

It will be similar to what you saw in Teron (but with more branching).

Why not develop on that kind of feeling and make me want to know more about the history?

Some people like the setting and the story, some people don't. I don't think I can make it appealing for everyone.

It seems that these elemental gods (i forgot their names because I did not care about them BEYOND that one story the storyteller in the tavern told me) are the final driving force of the story. Why not detail that a bit or is that still in progress?

I didn't want everyone talking about it non-stop. Most people in the setting don't care about what happened in the past and I'd like to keep it this way. However, it's not just one story (in the demo). There are several characters (including Cassius, whom I assume most people killed) who have some info on the subject, which is more than enough, in my opinion.

The first is subjective, yes. And it's bullshit that combat would be impossible. But it's also a fact that combat isn't very tactical at all.

Is it?

I see. I have another question. Do you have a profit motive? At all? Or you would be satisfied with a break even?

 

[Johannes]

The first is subjective, yes. And it's bullshit that combat would be impossible. But it's also a fact that combat isn't very tactical at all.

Is it?

I don't see how standing still and whacking opponents over and over again, gives you any room for interesting maneuvers.

There's some learning curve, yes, but it's mostly a case of being hard to learn (well not really hard), easy to master type of thing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I see. I have another question. Do you have a profit motive? At all? Or you would be satisfied with a break even?

I'm not doing it for money, if that's what you're asking. I'd like to make RPGs for a living and AoD is a test to see if there is enough interest.

Maybe there could be books or records of some kind. More optional backstory always gives a setting a sense of coherence.

There are libraries elsewhere, but not every character will be able to gain access.

It needs to emit the vibe that you really thought about this setting and its history...

Well, the setting is one of the most praised features of the game, so clearly we did something right.

Don't hate.

Why should I?

 

[Jasede]

You're doing this again. You're pointing out some people liked the setting - which is true - so clearly you must have done enough to make it believable and not sterile.
But I have different priorities and sensibilities than those people you are pointing out and from that point of view it would be nice if a little more flavor was injected into Teron. It can be simple things: some old rock or statue fragment from ages ago. Some artifact that gives a clue to what happened to the world. Some rumor, maybe. Some more dialogue with this in mind.

 

[Phelot]

The game just *feels* cold. It's not something I can point out specifically. It just feels loveless. System Shock and Fallout and blabla, Darklands, RoA and even Baldur's Gate 2 feel much... warmer. There's love in there. There's love in AoD as well, but the love you put into it comes from a cold and disappointed heart.

One of the best qualities a game can have - no matter what genre, no matter what system - is to evoke the feeling that this was someone's passion; that someone poured themselves into making this. It can't be quantified- but when it's not there it feels like there is something missing. As if the game was sterile and empty; there's no heart, no blood, no soul.

Like CaptainShrek unwittingly agreed: it's a skeleton. It's cold and there's no meat on these bones. But maybe something can be built on that backbone.

I'd say the game is currently lacking charm. All the stupid little things that makes a game... uh... charming. Yeah, AoD doesn't have em. It feels purely mechanical and gets right down to the gameplay without fluff. Some people likely love that kind of stuff, while others won't.

If you don't want to reply to negative posts, why is the title "What do you think of AoD?" and not "Lavish praise upon my masterpiece here!"?

What is it about that title that says he needs to reply to anything? It is reasonable that he would want impressions of the game. I do think he shouldn't have bothered responding to some of the criticism since at this point I doubt anything could be changed even if ITS wanted to, but I guess he felt some of the criticism wasn't fair.

 

[hiver]

For Teron itself there is enough of info about the past. Works well, as you can see - people want moar.

I didnt get into the mine but i guess there is a bit there too?

As i said before, youve created an interesting setting, you should expand and use it more. That does not mean the past should become prominent or revealed too much.
One angle you could use to add more diverse past reflections and bits of info, besides those mentioned by Jasede, which will be included more of in full game (some such bits are already in Fengs house) - could be the guilds themselves. Assassins and Imperial guards were in the thick of it as it happened and some scrolls or passed on (and maybe a bit distorted tall tales or even semi truths) memories could be introduced through higher members of those guilds, in addition to noble houses.

Time to play a Loremaster i guess... been saving it so far.

 

[Cassidy]

1) The world is browner than Quake

I don't think all cities will look exactly like Teron, and from how the world map looks like, some locations will be greener than others, and some will be greyer and white as snow too(mountain ranges, etc). Yeah, I know Teron is supposed to represent a significant part of the game, but judging the whole based on it could be like judging Fallout based on Shady Sands. We'll see, or not.

When AoD was first announced I had a strong interest in, above all, the non combat approach. I also was a bit disappointed that the biggest choices lie in character creation and after it the variety of options grow thinner, but it was a design decision made to improve replayability at the expense of having wider choices for a specific PC. The disparity of difficulty between the non combat and combat approaches is also disappointing. Guessing how many skill points you need to invest to pass a check is not something I'd consider fun or challenging either. If there were no [INTELLIGENCE] tags it would be somewhat better. Let the player guess which is the best dialogue choice and build a more coherent tree with less dependence between otherwise unrelated skills (IE: [Trade]/[Persuasion])

As for the issues on skill checks binary nature(success or die/combat), the fact there are still many cases where you are thrown into combat in a bad position by teleport instead of being able to initiate it at will, are issues I agree with, although the lack of a controllable party was a design choice made from day 1 in this project, unfortunately. As for story, I think it will get more interesting once it gets past Teron, into the ruins etc... although truth be told, had this been a DoubleBear and Iron Tower co-production, the writing would probably be much better and memorable. But that is wishful thinking.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The first is subjective, yes. And it's bullshit that combat would be impossible. But it's also a fact that combat isn't very tactical at all.

Is it?

I don't see how standing still and whacking opponents over and over again, gives you any room for interesting maneuvers.

Like what? What kind of maneuvers do you normally do in tactical RPGs?

Anyway, here is a non-tactical game: you face multiple opponents; all you can do is target one, fight till he dies, target another one, rinse and repeat. It's not the case in AoD. While you do have a single character, you have a very large variety of attacks that work well with different weapon types (within the class). These options can make quite a difference and explain why people who don't grasp them do very poorly in combat. The mere fact that some people claim that the game is impossible or die constantly, where others don't, clearly point that success depends not on build/gear but on tactics.

 

[Captain Shrek]

The game just *feels* cold. It's not something I can point out specifically. It just feels loveless. System Shock and Fallout and blabla, Darklands, RoA and even Baldur's Gate 2 feel much... warmer. There's love in there. There's love in AoD as well, but the love you put into it comes from a cold and disappointed heart.

One of the best qualities a game can have - no matter what genre, no matter what system - is to evoke the feeling that this was someone's passion; that someone poured themselves into making this. It can't be quantified- but when it's not there it feels like there is something missing. As if the game was sterile and empty; there's no heart, no blood, no soul.

Like CaptainShrek unwittingly agreed: it's a skeleton. It's cold and there's no meat on these bones. But maybe something can be built on that backbone.

I'd say the game is currently lacking charm. All the stupid little things that makes a game... uh... charming. Yeah, AoD doesn't have em. It feels purely mechanical and gets right down to the gameplay without fluff. Some people likely love that kind of stuff, while others won't.

If you don't want to reply to negative posts, why is the title "What do you think of AoD?" and not "Lavish praise upon my masterpiece here!"?

What is it about that title that says he needs to reply to anything? It is reasonable that he would want impressions of the game. I do think he shouldn't have bothered responding to some of the criticism since at this point I doubt anything could be changed even if ITS wanted to, but I guess he felt some of the criticism wasn't fair.

PHELOT. Like most people here you are disappointing. That Charm you talk about is mostly decipherable. Its mostly in character development, the wording in the dialogue, the little twists and jokes and the quest manipulation tropes. Some of that, is there in the game. But its presented in a manner that is mechanical, meaning that it is there because it was PUT there instead of allowing it to be naturally extended. This needs example to flesh it out:

Consider The character of Jeanette. Look at her dialogue carefully; its written to entice a typical gamer kid. There is understanding of what that kind of audience likes to hear. There is directed effort to make it genuine. The entire mystery about the sisters has no real role in the grand scheme of things, but its written well enough to add color to the story. This, explicitly put, the color, is lacking in the game.

 

[Captain Shrek]

I'm not doing it for money, if that's what you're asking. I'd like to make RPGs for a living and AoD is a test to see if there is enough interest.

You are going to lose.

 

[Vault Dweller]

But I have different priorities and sensibilities than those people you are pointing out and from that point of view it would be nice if a little more flavor was injected into Teron. It can be simple things: some old rock or statue fragment from ages ago. Some artifact that gives a clue to what happened to the world. Some rumor, maybe. Some more dialogue with this in mind.

My reply wasn't aimed at your suggestions, but at "do more to make it seems like you put some thought into the setting." Maybe I read it the wrong way.

As for your suggestions, I'm not sure how much you've played and seen. There are plenty of conversations about the war, the gods, and the old days, but you won't see them all in a single playthrough.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not doing it for money, if that's what you're asking. I'd like to make RPGs for a living and AoD is a test to see if there is enough interest.

You are going to lose.

:shrug: