Game News What if Shepard dies?

[DraQ]

They made it clear from the start that the effect of Shepard dying is that the story of your personal Shepard is over, and you'll have to play on with a different story as a generic Shepard in ME3.

They also made it clear that they try to push what effectively is a non-standard gameover as C&C, while it has no in game consequences whatsoever as story simply doesn't account for it:

But we wouldn’t be serious about the concept of a suicide mission if you couldn’t die and your death didn’t have serious consequences.

This is what we are ridiculing ITT.

We don't criticize punishing players for failure. Or non-standard gameovers. Or swinging one's dick regarding awesome C&C you made in your game.

It's like bragging about serious consequences of death in your game (you have to fucking reload) or the fact that characters won't import to the fucking sequel if they are dead.
This is not "consequences", Capt. Obvious, this isn't "SPARTAAAA!!!" either, it's just something that should be taken for granted if game allows for importing characters from it's prequel, something abscence of which would be awkward and retarded, just like bragging about it in the context of in-game consequences is.

Then I start to think I should buy myself a gun and cut my hair into a fancy mohawk.

Mohawks certainly do suit horses, especially majestic, brown ones.

 

[Twinkle]

[nextgenkid]Bros, when I die in SP videogames I have to accept the consequences and ragequit or reload from earlier save. Why evil developers are doing this to me??? [/nextgenkid]

LOL, if not hilariosuly bad dialogue "tell them - ITZ COMING" and Hollywoodesque faggotry (I thought enemies would wait for goodbye kiss between Joker and Shep ) Shepard dies ending could have been dramatic.

As it stands, certain "RPG" called STALKER rapes it in that regard.

 

[DraQ]

As it stands, certain "RPG" called STALKER rapes it in that regard.

Clarification?

 

[Volourn]

FFS

 

[Twinkle]

As it stands, certain "RPG" called STALKER rapes it in that regard.

Clarification?

STALKER's PC dies endings >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ME2' s PC dies ending.

 

[Grunker]

FFS

 

[DraQ]

As it stands, certain "RPG" called STALKER rapes it in that regard.

Clarification?

STALKER's PC dies endings >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ME2' s PC dies ending.

Ah. STALKER's 'PC dies' endings were arguably better than the regular ones - if only because they avoided that whole "great reveal" clusterfuck. They were also well animated and somewhat deliciously ironic in their nature.

 

[Gylfi.Fenriz.Conquests]

As I understood it, Shepard dies if you do the final mission with too few loyal companions. So there's only one decision involved; deciding to go in before you're ready.

I guess the main point of threatening Shepard with death is to pad out the game by strongly encouraging players to complete all the recruitment/loyalty quests, without having to come up with some contrived reason for why it's impossible to progress in the game without doing them.

sounds horrible.So all you have to do to get the good ending is complete all the missions and be good boy? And it's also fixable at the last minute?

They screwed up.

 

[Luan]

As I understood it, Shepard dies if you do the final mission with too few loyal companions. So there's only one decision involved; deciding to go in before you're ready.

I guess the main point of threatening Shepard with death is to pad out the game by strongly encouraging players to complete all the recruitment/loyalty quests, without having to come up with some contrived reason for why it's impossible to progress in the game without doing them.

sounds horrible.So all you have to do to get the good ending is complete all the missions and be good boy? And it's also fixable at the last minute?

They screwed up.

This is misinformed. I finished the game yesterday. Simply finishing all the side missions does not guarantee loyalty from your squad members. Even good choices (paragon choices) can FAIL to gain loyalty from your squad mates. Sometimes you have to choose between loyalty to your squad mate or your own morale compass. Additionally, members also have a chance of randomly dying during the final mission(you are fighting hordes of baddies, people are bound to get shot) Also, ship upgrades are important as you have a chances to lose members due to various combat scenarios regarding the Normandy.

Squad mates dying also doesn't depend solely on their loyalty. They can still die even if they are loyal if you make the wrong decisions. They can still survive even if they are disloyal. One I've heard has a chance to die regardless of any of the above criteria, loyal + right choices or otherwise.

Also, it's not only limited to a simple check flag of doing certain quests or gaining loyalty. The fate of your crew is time sensitive. This isn't like DA where the blight waited patiently with their thumbs up their asses waiting for the Grey Wardens to assemble their army. Prancing around the universe assuming there is no consequence for such carries harsh penalties.

No, it's not fixable at the last minute. These are decisions that carry on from the beginning of the game.

There are also many very well done tough decisions you need to make that could POTENTIALLY carry some far reaching consequences for ME3.

Also, the codex is currently so hung up on Shepard dying. The characters imo in ME2 are much more fleshed out and better designed than the first game. Whether Bioware succeeded in making you care about them or not is subjective. But ideally, losing *any* squad mate permanently should be emotionally taxing.

Just simply having them die permanently is a nice step or return to the right direction.

Simply having Shepard survive isn't what constitutes a good ending. There are many, many more bad endings than good endings.

 

[Tycn]

^ I call bullshit.

Also, ship upgrades are important as you have a chances to lose members due to various combat scenarios regarding the Normandy.

Each ship upgrade that you don't buy causes someone to die. It's pretty damn obvious that this is the only reason for buying them.

Even good choices (paragon choices) can FAIL to gain loyalty from your squad mates.

I managed to get loyalty for everyone, using almost exclusively paragon.

Squad mates dying also doesn't depend solely on their loyalty. They can still die even if they are loyal if you make the wrong decisions.

Like ordering a biotic to do the hacking job or a tech user to maintain a biotic barrier. Yeah.

There are also many very well done tough decisions you need to make that could POTENTIALLY carry some far reaching consequences for ME3.

Much like the many well done tough decisions that could POTENTIALLY have carried far reaching consequences in ME2. Owait.

Simply having Shepard survive isn't what constitutes a good ending. There are many, many more bad endings than good endings.

I finished with only Tali dying, and that because I chose her for a combat role which probably wasn't the best idea. It's not as difficult as you make it sound.

Also, it's not only limited to a simple check flag of doing certain quests or gaining loyalty. The fate of your crew is time sensitive. This isn't like DA where the blight waited patiently with their thumbs up their asses waiting for the Grey Wardens to assemble their army. Prancing around the universe assuming there is no consequence for such carries harsh penalties.

Bullshit unless you can give examples. I left most of the loyalty quests until near the end of the game. They didn't mind.

And it's not like the Collectors are going to invade if you waste too much time. It's still the same shit.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Shepard dying in ME2 is no different than the Vault Dweller getting put in a VAT in Fallout 1 thus going against FO2 canon.

No.

the Vault Dweller dying is an alternate "bad end", like Shepard dying. It would be perfectly fine like that. Only Bio lied saying that 'zomg shep can die, wonder what'll happen on ME3"...only for the "consequence" to be losing your levels. They said it would have siriuz story conzeguenzes, and what we got is "you will need to make a new Shepard"

Shep survives Me2 = you play as shep in ME3

Shep dies in Me2 = you still play as Shep in Me3, only you cant import your previous game's save.

So now the difference isn't in the game itself but in the fucking marketing? Jesus christ.

OH MAH LAWD A CORPORATION MAKES A BIGGER DEAL OF IT'S GAME THAN IT REALLY IS I MUST SUE SOMEBODY.

wait, I thought the codex was the place to bitch about undelivered promises, and bio/beth forums was the place to say "no big deal, who cares, it's fine for what it is"

i am confuse

CK - you actually expected them to make a whole new character if your Shepard died?

Possibility of shepard dying + guarantee of there being a ME3 = we need a new fucking hero for 3 if that death is going to mean something other than "lul ur a lvl 1 noob again"

Instead, they go "o wait that didn't really happen lol, heres sum shepard again"

That pretty much implies they would have to make a game in which everybody said "OMG U SHEPPERD" and an alternate where people would go "who
r u lol".

So? I'm not the one who wrote himself into that corner with the "Shep can die, lol!". You're basically saying it's ok to make overly ambitious promises and later back off because you can't be arsed to complete them.

And don't make it sound so fucking complicated. They could just replace Shep with Garrus, and mute the parts in dialogue where npc's say "Shepard", or whatever the fuck.

Guard: "Shepard, you Cerberus goon. I can't let you pass"

Guard: "You cerberus goon. I can't let you pass"

Tali: "OH GAWD SHEPARD, YOUR DICK IS SO HUGE"

Tali: "OH GAWD, YOUR DICK IS SO HUGE"

etc., etc.


Just remove the focus from Shepard's humongous dick / tight vagina. Not every character must gush over how awesome s/he is.

...

wait, so I'm at fault for expecting them to make their "Shep's death matters" flaunting...well, matter

I'm all up for giving crap to Bioware - hell, they've reduced this genre to mediocrity - but this is just stupid.

Yeah, it's stupid to complain that the promised consequences don't exist - it's not like we couldn't have seen it coming a mile away. lolbioware

God, I love bioware - they weasel out of giving proper consequnces to their choices, hand old shit as new (main character dying? never happened before. Bio is so bold) and people still applaud them.

 

[circ]

The point is this, nowhere in Fallout 1's advertising did it go over how if you followed a mutie at one point he would lead you to his master and stick you in a vat. There were many different ways to get game over, and consequently, different ending animations. In 1997.

Now BioWare says how if Shep dies, assumably with no different ending animations as I haven't played this, he won't return in ME 3. WELL NO SHIT BIOWARE, HOW COULD HE? WHY IS THIS NEWS?

 

[Volourn]

"Only Bio lied saying that 'zomg shep can die, wonder what'll happen on ME3"..."

Bullshit. So much fuckin' bullshit. They've always said the ME trilogy was about Shepard and what he means to human rep in space. They have always said you'd be playing Shepard in all 3 ME games. they were very careful in stressing the fact that Shepard would carry over to all 3 games.

So STFU (or not b/c this is the Codex and that would be boring) about the 'WAA WAAA WAAA BIO 'promised' this' when they fuckin' did no such fuckin' thing.

FFS FFS FFS

 

[Luan]

Lots of spoilers below due to examples:

Also, ship upgrades are important as you have a chances to lose members due to various combat scenarios regarding the Normandy.

Each ship upgrade that you don't buy causes someone to die. It's pretty damn obvious that this is the only reason for buying them.

Not sure what you are getting at. Party members dying is not important? Sure, if you don't care about the story or party members at all, I can see how it is insignificant for you. Obvious or not doesn't override importance.

Even good choices (paragon choices) can FAIL to gain loyalty from your squad mates.

I managed to get loyalty for everyone, using almost exclusively paragon.

One example would be Tali's mission where you can decide to present the evidence of her father's war crimes or not. It can be the morale thing to do, and would exonerate Tali of treason charges as well as bringing to light all evidence in a court of law.

This choice would prevent Tali from gaining loyalty to Shepard.

It's like the difference between lawful good and neutral good.

Squad mates dying also doesn't depend solely on their loyalty. They can still die even if they are loyal if you make the wrong decisions.

Like ordering a biotic to do the hacking job or a tech user to maintain a biotic barrier. Yeah.

Again, not sure if you are just commenting or making an argument.
Example, Miranda was genetically engineered to be perfect. She is a powerful biotic, her special unlocked 3rd ability is a biotic slam, and she even implies that you should choose her to maintain the biotic barrier.

However, choosing her would lead to the death of a squad mate.

Another example, Mordin the salarian genius lab rat that was on the team to manufacture the genophage. Also a tech class, would die if selected to handle the tech job of hacking the door.

There are also many very well done tough decisions you need to make that could POTENTIALLY carry some far reaching consequences for ME3.

Much like the many well done tough decisions that could POTENTIALLY have carried far reaching consequences in ME2. Owait.

Well done in ME1? Tough decisions? Really? What?
This is just supposition and there is nothing to argue about. ME2 in my opinion was a step in the right direction C&C wise. ME1 C&C I can't even recall... perhaps a testament to the quality of C&C presented then.

The only decisions in ME1 I can recall off the top of my head were whether to collar grab or not...

I used "POTENTIALLY" for a reason. Whether the developers will follow through is of course in their hands.

Simply having Shepard survive isn't what constitutes a good ending. There are many, many more bad endings than good endings.

I finished with only Tali dying, and that because I chose her for a combat role which probably wasn't the best idea. It's not as difficult as you make it sound.

Again, what are you arguing about? I'm making it sound difficult? What does that have to do with anything?

Tali was my protagonist's romance. That would have been a terrible ending. Losing anyone important, (again, subjective to the player), I would think constitute a bad ending.

Also, it's not only limited to a simple check flag of doing certain quests or gaining loyalty. The fate of your crew is time sensitive. This isn't like DA where the blight waited patiently with their thumbs up their asses waiting for the Grey Wardens to assemble their army. Prancing around the universe assuming there is no consequence for such carries harsh penalties.

Bullshit unless you can give examples. I left most of the loyalty quests until near the end of the game. They didn't mind.

And it's not like the Collectors are going to invade if you waste too much time. It's still the same shit.

Sure. I'll bite.

So prior to the passing through the omega-4 relay, your entire crew gets captured by the Collectors and placed into pods for further "processing". If you do not attempt to rescue them immediately (go do your loyalty missions or sidequests/assignments). They will ALL die a gruesome death. Alternatively, they can be saved if you chase the collectors immediately.

As I said specifically, the fate of your crew is time sensitive.

 

[HanoverF]

In my experience the techie selected to go into the vents dies because of who you pick to lead the B squad. I would assume the same is true for the biotic escort.

 

[Luan]

In my experience the techie selected to go into the vents dies because of who you pick to lead the B squad. I would assume the same is true for the biotic escort.

Both variables affect survival or death actually. The techie can get blasted in the face as they are trying to force the door shut. Additionally, a bad choice for the fire team leader can also get the techie killed regardless if the techie was a good choice or not!

 

[Fat Dragon]

I thought it was pretty damn obvious who should do what during the suicide mission.

Need a tech expert? Either pick the Quarian whose spent most of her life working with tech, or the Geth who are pretty well known for making advanced technology. Yeah, Mordin has some tech knowledge too, but he's a damned geneticist, not a top computer hacker which is what you need.

Need a good leader? Garrus already has fucking shitloads of combat experience, says that he learned how to be a leader from watching Shepard during ME1, and prior to his joining in ME2 was leading his own 12 man squad against 3 huge merc groups and was even kicking the shit out of them on his own. Perfect choice for second team leader both times, it's a fucking no-brainer.

Who should be the biotic? Easy, either the Asari whose biotics are said to rival a matriarch's, or the human who was studied on for years to be made into a biotic super weapon.

Who to escort the survivors? Someone loyal and who can adapt to any given situation quickly, which is exactly how Thane is described.

The ship upgrades should have been no-brainers to everyone to purchase, they wouldn't just give you those upgrades for no reason afterall.

Managed to get everyone out alive on my first playthrough, it was pretty easy. As long as you get them all loyal, and handle the tension between Legion/Tali and Jack/Miranda well. They should have made the choices less obvious, or given more to handle during the mission, causing you to stretch your team out and consider other possible situations down the road where a character's talents would come in handy but not available because they're doing something else, etc.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Who to escort the survivors? Someone loyal and who can adapt to any given situation quickly, which is exactly how Thane is described.

Apparently Grunt works nicely too.

 

[MetalCraze]

Now BioWare says how if Shep dies, assumably with no different ending animations as I haven't played this, he won't return in ME 3. WELL NO SHIT BIOWARE, HOW COULD HE? WHY IS THIS NEWS?

Keeping basic plot consistency is considered an innovashun these days
Just like limited ammo is considered "hardcore" difficulty

 

[Tycn]

Not sure what you are getting at. Party members dying is not important? Sure, if you don't care about the story or party members at all, I can see how it is insignificant for you. Obvious or not doesn't override importance.

Your choices would be more satisfying if they had a bit more depth than "pay cash to prevent death". I could see how the Gears of War playerbase they're targeting could miss such a thing however.

Again, not sure if you are just commenting or making an argument.
Example, Miranda was genetically engineered to be perfect. She is a powerful biotic, her special unlocked 3rd ability is a biotic slam, and she even implies that you should choose her to maintain the biotic barrier.

However, choosing her would lead to the death of a squad mate.

Another example, Mordin the salarian genius lab rat that was on the team to manufacture the genophage. Also a tech class, would die if selected to handle the tech job of hacking the door.

The tech job involves crawling through a dangerous ventilation shaft and even Jacob says it's a suicide mission. Not something you'd assign to a salarian scientist - Legion seemed like a pretty clear-cut best candidate.

Likewise, there's little reason why you'd choose Miranda over badass biotic bitch or justicar who are clearly made out to be better biotics in the game (Jack is meant to be the most powerful human biotic ever). Miranda isn't even a dedicated biotic.

Sure. I'll bite.

So prior to the passing through the omega-4 relay, your entire crew gets captured by the Collectors and placed into pods for further "processing". If you do not attempt to rescue them immediately (go do your loyalty missions or sidequests/assignments). They will ALL die a gruesome death. Alternatively, they can be saved if you chase the collectors immediately.

As I said specifically, the fate of your crew is time sensitive.

This is good, I suppose. It'd be nice to have more than an isolated incident near the end of the game though.

 

[Jaesun]

I thought it was pretty damn obvious who should do what during the suicide mission.

Need a tech expert? Either pick the Quarian whose spent most of her life working with tech, or the Geth who are pretty well known for making advanced technology. Yeah, Mordin has some tech knowledge too, but he's a damned geneticist, not a top computer hacker which is what you need.

Need a good leader? Garrus already has fucking shitloads of combat experience, says that he learned how to be a leader from watching Shepard during ME1, and prior to his joining in ME2 was leading his own 12 man squad against 3 huge merc groups and was even kicking the shit out of them on his own. Perfect choice for second team leader both times, it's a fucking no-brainer.

Who should be the biotic? Easy, either the Asari whose biotics are said to rival a matriarch's, or the human who was studied on for years to be made into a biotic super weapon.

Who to escort the survivors? Someone loyal and who can adapt to any given situation quickly, which is exactly how Thane is described.

The ship upgrades should have been no-brainers to everyone to purchase, they wouldn't just give you those upgrades for no reason afterall.

Managed to get everyone out alive on my first playthrough, it was pretty easy. As long as you get them all loyal, and handle the tension between Legion/Tali and Jack/Miranda well. They should have made the choices less obvious, or given more to handle during the mission, causing you to stretch your team out and consider other possible situations down the road where a character's talents would come in handy but not available because they're doing something else, etc.

SO you then figured out Mordin MUST be with you and Miranda to do the final boss?

 

[Fat Dragon]

SO you then figured out Mordin MUST be with you and Miranda to do the final boss?

No. I beat the final boss with Jacob and Miranda. Mordin stayed back with all the others and held down the fort.

What happens if you take Mordin with you to the final boss?

 

[Crooked Bee]

What happens if you take Mordin with you to the final boss?

If he's loyal and upgraded, he lives. At least on my playthrough he did. (I took him and Miranda.)

ihih no i don't think RP is something you add interpreting the game, it's either there or not.

Well, in that case, it's not. At least as far as "real" morals go. Surprise, surprise.

Point is, if in ME2 death is the final result of MANY of the choices you make during the game, and you can't "repent", AND these choices aren't too obviously avoidable, then it's a good Rpg, imo.

I see there's a whole bloody debate going on here on this issue, and it's obviously of a tl;dr nature, but I'll add my $0.02.
When I started playing ME2, I was'nt aware that Shep can die at the end of the game. Nor was I aware that all/any of your party or your crew can end up dead. Still, no one died on my first playthrough. And this is imo bad, terrible even. Too hard to screw up.
The only way to wind up dead is to rush the game. Perhaps that's what consolekiddies do, so it may be hard for them. But not for those who play more or less carefully.

 

[Luan]

I see there's a whole bloody debate going on here on this issue, and it's obviously of a tl;dr nature, but I'll add my $0.02.
When I started playing ME2, I was'nt aware that Shep can die at the end of the game. Nor was I aware that all/any of your party or your crew can end up dead. Still, no one died on my first playthrough. And this is imo bad, terrible even. Too hard to screw up.
The only way to wind up dead is to rush the game. Perhaps that's what consolekiddies do, so it may be hard for them. But not for those who play more or less carefully.

This is true. And, RPGCodex is highly unrepresentative of the target audience for this game.

 

[Freelance Henchman]

Who to escort the survivors? Someone loyal and who can adapt to any given situation quickly, which is exactly how Thane is described.

Apparently Grunt works nicely too.

So does Tali, and most anyone else I think. I only had Zaeed whose loyalty I didn't have die while escorting the crew.