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What is it about BioWare...

triCritical

Erudite
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Jan 8, 2003
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Colorado Springs
Eldar said:
Yeah, but it still wasn't hard so much as tedious. It's like Wizardry 8, it's not that the combat is too difficult, althought I thought Nessie was damned tough, but rather that there's so much of it. Those Slaad weren't game stoppers, but they were a swarming bunch of pests. ...And I was stuck with more tongues than I could carry.

And Eldar you have hit the nail on the head of what makes good combat. You can win any battle in Wiz8, as long as you approach each round with tactical genius.;) This is truly impossible in games like IWD and BG2. That is why it is possible to play Wiz8 in Ironman mode and succeed. Jagged Alliance 2 is the same way. Hard combat does not mean impossible combat. IMO combat should be just hard enough so that with enough thought and planning every battle can be beaten. I hate reload games. One of the bad things about the SPECIAL is the critical system. Josh has hinted in the feasability into turning 2x and 3x damage into broken bones, which would utilize one of the most under utilized things in the FO games.

Just some random thoughts.
 

Rosh

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
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I think Astro hit it pretty good already.

Then, we also have to take a look at some other things. Yes, Troika only has one game under their collective belts. Do you know how many titles those people have worked on, often with each other, before they formed Troika? 'They only have released one game." is a pitiful argument when talking about their capability.

When it comes to the acctual construction of the areas, Troika did it far better than the utterly ridiculous bullshit of NWN and BG/BGII. It has only taken until recently for BioWare to get a clue about multiple ways of solving a quest, or being able to do it without combat, or to get out of the 80's with Pass/Fail quests, but from what I've seen those "new" ways of theirs are smelling a little full of Cheddar in implementation. Whereas the design for Arcanum would usually allow numerous outcomes and give different ways of playing through the game (although, again, story was pretty linear).

That thread in the news section with the BioWhore idiot "developer" saying it takes exponentially more work to add branches just speaks truckloads.

That leaves just one thing. BioWare relies on half-ass work and lame excuses while stroking each other's egos, all built upon finding a license and exploiting it for the name. If it were not for the licenses, they would be fucked.
 

Storn

Novice
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Messages
26
I think it's important to consider Troika as its own entity and judge them based on what they produce as that entity, instead of what they did while with Interplay. That the three founding members (the troika) were working on Fallout (which, again, is probably my favorite CRPG of all tiem) shows that they possess enormous talent, and for that reason I'm willing to give them some benefit of the doubt, but they still have to prove themselves. What they have, based on their work at Interplay, is simply potential - it isn't tangible - and what Troika does with their potential is what matters: Arcanum was a step in the right direction, in my opinion, though it should have been strictly turn-based. Temple of Elemental Evil is a good, solid step if for no other reason than the fact that they're doing D&D the way it should be - turn based! Bloodlines ...well I don't know about Bloodlines; I don't like first-person perspective games, so I doubt I will get it.

I guess what bugs me, though, is that with Arcanum (and even Fallout) the Troika guys showed that they had the creative imagination to create truly unique worlds, and now they seem to be drifting away from that by resorting to using others' PnP systems. As much as I like D&D (been playing it for 20+ years) I want to try something different (though at least it isn't Forgotten Realms - lord if I have to play another module that has Drizzt and Elminster in it, I'll scream). I'd like to them try something new, as they did with Arcanum - actually, I'd be happy to see an Arcanum 2 with some of the implementations tweaked ...


Anyways - I guess my point is that we should measure Troika by what they release as Troika, and we should be just as critical of them as any other game company



Storn
 

Astromarine

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Tim Cain has stated in several interviews now that they were *contacted* by the holders of the license to develop the game for it. They didn't wake up one day and said "screw originality, let's do D&D". The same happened with Vampire, BTW, AFAIK.

As for the rest, yes and no. Yeah, Troika can only be judged by Arcanum. But the same way as a "Peter Molyneux game" has a certain stygma, or a "Will Wright" game another, so does a "TIm Cain game". Yeah, maybe it is unwarranted as of yet, but them's the facts. A crappy ToEE would probably be enough to dispel this, but then again maybe not. As I said, Tim Cain is forthcoming with his RPGs, as is Eric Dallaire, for instance. Or for that matter JE Sawyer. Those three we can trust to tell us a reasonably straight story, even if some of their efforts end up lacking.

Astro
 

Rosh

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Yes, they were approached, and then told that they had a selection of what to pick to work on. All those licenses. It really wasn't just because of Arcanum, which I still believe the one true flaw happened to be the RT combat. I'm not sure if it was a publisher thing, but I believe it might have been (could Tim or anyone else there at Troika give some background on that?). Judging a company's talent pool based only upon what they've done as that company is well...quite frankly obtuse. There's so much more to take into account.

Take Ion Storm for example. Oh, no, their head guy was a bullshit artist and wasted millions of dollars, put in skylights that caused nasty glare on his workers' screens so bad they had to put blankets up to block that out (natural light is very harsh when developing for long hours, I know), and generally had one flop release, one that did fair, and another that shined under the direction of someone that makes Romero look like a child. Should there be any optimism for Deus Ex 2, or should you crush that out on the basis that Ion Storm really only had one good game? Or are you going to say even a worse guess that since Deus Ex 1 was good, the sequel will be good as well? Or how about Fable, since B&W was a bit mediocre, even though it sounds like a sort of interesting RPG/Sim mix, does offer some of the elements people do enjoy from the work Troika has done. Even if it's an action game in many ways, I do think Fable is worth a look because of Moly's previous work and I want to see what he will do with this. Bottom line is, you can't just say a company is good or bad based upon what little they have done as the company. The only respectful way is to acknowledge both their good and bad, and their previous work in experiences.

I do recall a ribbing we gave some BIS people about not having experience with making a character system to date, with balancing it, etc. and then trying to say that we should expect them to easily put together RT and TB alongside each other, when it's quite impossible to do that and balance both alongside each other. The reason why that ribbing was done is while their were some vets in BIS (only a small handful now), there's also a larger number of kids that Interplay has hired that might have been on one game before. Those vets at the time had only a bit of experience with one combat system or another, but no real full-fleshed out attempts to combine or to implement one alongside the other. Even experienced people fail when it is something that impossible.

Then, you could look at the base facts of Troika. There's a group of talented people, who have been in the business for quite some time in one form or another and in different areas (most of which have credit lists larger than many people put together at Interplay), and now don't have the head morons at Interplay interfering with any of it, and they've also shown that they are better at creating quests long before the BioWhore kiddies came up with their first Fed-Ex in Baldur's Garbage. Hell, even Feargus' creations in Fallout 1 basically mopped up most of BioWhore's shitty design. Troika also are working to keep D&D rules faithful and precise as they can, and while it is quite combat intensive, it does show in many ways that it will easily surpass any BioHype game in terms of role-playing and D&D construction. That it will try as best as it can to stick to the P&P roots will likely earn it a point of respect from D&D players, even over the crackheads that prefer the BioWare's style of raping the rules. Hell, even PC Gamer has a nice, gushing article about ToEE, the only downside is their preference for multiplayer. They go on about the many different ways to start, play, and finish the game. Gee, how many ways does any BioHype game offer? One starting, a few cliché path choices, and usually one ending. Two, if you count the death screen. They might have snuck in another ending for some of their IE games, but MDK2 offered more endings than most of them.

It also seems that someone else aside from a good portion of the consumer base and magazines, too, was tired of the cock and bull garbage of BioHype. ;)
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Good work eevryone. 'Tis a good read this thread here.
 

Rosh

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Messages
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Astromarine said:
As for Vampire, yeah, it will require more of a leap of faith. Still, it will come out after ToEE. By the time it ships, we will have much more info about it than now, and will have 3 instead of 2 games to judge Troika by. If they continue their track-record of openness about their games it's perfectly possible we will enjoy it, even if it's 60% FPS and only 40% RPG. Because we will *know it in advance*.

Aside from the point about Troika being forthright, which they are WAY over BioHype in that regard, I have to remark about the design and how games are created.

If Vampire is anything like System Shock 2 in terms of playability, then it will be a great game to play multiple times. The atmosphere made it simply outstanding. On some technical level since it only has one "ending", it would seem to be "more linear" than Deus Ex despite that Deus Ex has four endings, none of which really matter to the previous parts of the game. What System Shock 2 did extremely well was give the idea of an environment, of a good setting. Deus Ex felt like rat mazes connected in serial, and despite some story-changing aspects, there was really little depth to the game. Yet, even with things you could change, including the rather inane "boss chewing you out for going into the ladies room" things, Deus Ex felt more shallow and limited in its approach. On the other hand, SS2 had a surprising amount of depth that sucked you in through all its means, even to the point of causing me to start spraying half a magazine of fully-modified assault rifle into a ghost. The amusing part about that is I'm rather difficult to startle unless it's a physical touch on the shoulder (common military vet reaction).

That bears some things of interest to think over, of how well quality is done and how some things are put in for cheap gimmicks to offer some shallow variety, even if it may be supposedly for the better.

Darth Maul lightsabers thousands of years into Star Wars' past, anyone?
 

Astromarine

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Exactly. Deus Ex gets kudos for recognizing the need for non-linearity in a game, but loses points for settling to solve by with the *illusion* of non-linearity instead of going full-blown. When it works, it's great, but if even one little thing awakens you to that fact, it screws the rest of the game up for you. SS2 tried to go a different route, choosing as a focal point atmosphere rather than non-linearity. But that, it delivered in SPADES.

I'm reminded, now that I think about it, of a lot of paralells between SS2/DX and BG2/PST.

It's once again proof that if a game is *good* we enjoy it, no matter that mythical "checklist" that we supposedly follow when we see a game.
 

Section8

Cipher
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Wardenclyffe
Deus Ex is lauded by most, but I feel cheated by it. It's smoke and mirrors approach was fairly transparent, and as a result it felt like the gaming equivalent of "You're really nice, but I'd like to just be friends." SS2 or Thief on the other hand felt a lot more like "I'm not really looking for anything long term, but freaky, out-of-control, and creative casual sex sounds like fun!"

I hold a lot of stake in honesty, which is probably why the games industry as a whole shits me so fucking much.
 

Rosh

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One of the really bad aspects of Deus Ex uis the incredibly shitty voice-acting, especially the accents. As someone who has been to both Hong Kong, Pris, and Orleans, those accents are just so damn pathetic.

That's one of the worst aspects about it. The next worse is how, as noted, that no matter what you do throughout the game, it really has no effect later on. It might bring some backstory, maybe some extra equipment or variance in how it unfolds, but anything you do feels rather hollow at the end.
 
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Yeah, I never got past mission 3 in Deus Ex. It's just rather dull to me, and the story was like a really bad novel.

Back to Bioware, I just got NWN (finally got down to what I was willing to pay :P). Really, I don't think it's too horrible, but maybe that's just because I've heard so many bad things I was expecting the worst. It beats BG2, though that's not saying too much. I think some of the story and characters are pretty interesting, but Bioware does need to learn more about game-making. Their pathfinding is as atrocious as ever, and they really need to get away from the meaningless decisions. The game isn't challenging at all, either; after the first chapter, I no longer even needed spells, my cleric just trashes everyone in melee with no buffs or healing. If I come up on something "impossible" divine power alone puts them down in no time. Can't imagine how much easier my current style would be as a fighter. There's all kinds of traps, but I just wade through them with my damage reduction and regeneration items and yawn.

Just now got to Luskan, but I can already see talking down Aribeth from going psycho didn't help much. "Hmm, you're right, vengeance won't make me feel better...." *Bioware yanks puppet strings* "Screw Tyr! The cult shall burn!" And Aribeth makes my skin crawl. Could you not throw in so many contradictions for no apparent reason other than to turn some 15-yea- old on? Ooh, she's a graceful elf, but built like a human, especially where it counts. Oh, and she's a paladin but openly sleeps with some dude she's not married to and likes to tell random adventurers about it.

It's funny, I keep getting the feeling I'm playing some enterprising teen's mod. My options mostly seem limited to be nice, be rude, be an adolescent manslut. There's some evidence of thought put behind the setting and story, but it tends to fall apart in the implementation. There's even quaint little tricks to get around engine limitations, like giving you items you're expected to carry from mod to mod to represent choices you made in previous modules. I'd be impressed if it was some kid's mod, but "pros" ought to be able to do better, especially when they made the thing.

Okay, mostly redundant, but just had to throw that in since I've been left out of the NWN bashing somewhat up to this point. :lol:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Nope, so now everybody is going to look and say "dude, stop quoting yourself" :lol:
 

Visionary

Novice
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Jun 11, 2003
Messages
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Walks with the Snails said:
It's funny, I keep getting the feeling I'm playing some enterprising teen's mod.:

Go download some enterprising teen's (or grandad's) module from the vault. Play it, then write to the creator apologising for the way you insulted their work on this forum.

There are quite a few decent modules out there that make the price of the game worthwhile.
 
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Wasn't really my point. I'm willing to cut a single person making a game on their own time a lot more slack and just enjoy the effort they've put into it. But the game so far kind of has that amateurish feel. It's kind of like going to the movie theater to watch your buddy's movie he taped over a couple of weekends on his camcorder.
 

Zetor

Arcane
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Jan 9, 2003
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I think you misunderstood what he said / the general RPGCFOBOSXQK:)P) consensus is:

Sure, there are mods... but a LOT [and I do mean a lot, ie 80+%] of them are crap, more precisely a very very small minority of them are good. It's kinda like RPGMaker (does anyone here know about the monstrosity? I do and I fear for my sanity) in its ease of use, but that's always a two-edged sword, especially when the engine is so completely focused on combat along with a crippled scripting engine. On the other side of the scale you have (for example) Arcanum and Freedom Force mods that require a heck of a lot of patience / skills to make [since they are basically the tools those games were made with and hence complex], but as a result, almost every mod is worth the download.
Before you bring up rating systems, eh. For such a mainstream game as NWN, those scores are going to be anything but conclusive; popular mods will get even more popular as people keep downloading and grading them while unknown-yet-good ones are very frequently forgotten.

Keep in mind that I'm generally a very pro-mod person (I've done my share of Arcanum modding and now am working on a FF mod; I also did several MUD areas), but I'm underwhelmed by the NWN modding scene. Might be just me, though.

-- Z.
 
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Yeah, I'm kind of wondering about the same thing. I just tried out the two Lone Wolf mods since I'm a fan of the books, and they were fun, but it doesn't look like they're going anywhere further. I saw there were something like 2500 mods, and I probably won't agree that much with the prevailing rating systems. Just what are the good mods? Playing around with other people's stuff is fun for a while, but I kind of get the idea I'd do better just finding a bargain bin game for $5 and playing that for 50 hours or so than playing 10 5-hour mods and enjoying 10 of those hours.
 

Astromarine

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Head of nail, meet Snails. He just hit you, but he's a nice guy.

THAT's why NWN is gathering dust in most people's cd-cases here.
 

Spazmo

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Never buy games based on the mods that will be made for it. There are exceptions to this, like Half-Life, for example, but by and large, it's far smarter to buy a game that's fun out of the box. I don't call crawling across the Internet looking for a halfway decent mod gameplay.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Zetor said:
Before you bring up rating systems, eh. For such a mainstream game as NWN, those scores are going to be anything but conclusive; popular mods will get even more popular as people keep downloading and grading them while unknown-yet-good ones are very frequently forgotten.

I agree. Look at how many of the BioWare fans thought Witch's Wake was teh bestest modual evar and even compared it to PlaneScape: Torment. It's basically the same subpar BioWare design, only instead of click on all monsters, it's click on all dialogue options.
 

Psilon

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Saint_Proverbius said:
Look at how many of the BioWare fans thought Witch's Wake was teh bestest modual evar and even compared it to PlaneScape: Torment. It's basically the same subpar BioWare design, only instead of click on all monsters, it's click on all dialogue options.
That makes it much better than regular NWN in my book. I can page through dialogue a hell of a lot faster than I can wade through encounters. If the choice is between a shitload of click-on-everything dialogue and a shitload of click-on-everything IE/NWN combat, well, call me Mister Talky.

In fact, that's what I hate more than anything about console games, especially RPGs: the obsessive reliance on unskippable, slowly-appearing text and cutscenes. Given the average rate of scrolling, I can read half a screen of 10-point Arial at 1600x1200 by the time I, e.g., get to the end of one of the intro screens in a Zelda or FF game. (Yes, I know Zelda's not an RPG, but we all know the intellectual capacity of a Final Fantasy 7 fanboy.) No wonder these games aren't replayable; you get bored and switch to Super Smash Bros. halfway through the bloody intro movie!
 

Visionary

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Walks with the Snails said:
I saw there were something like 2500 mods, and I probably won't agree that much with the prevailing rating systems. Just what are the good mods?

You find the decent moduless the same way you find anything else on the internet - by applying your intelligence. There are plenty of other ways of looking at modules other than the numeric rating system. There are other stats (number of downloads for example) and there are several forms of player feedback (comments on the download page, and various forums).

I wouldn't recommend buying the game based upon the modules players might write, but for anyone who already has the game, I would recommend playing the better modules that have already been written. They are good fun and give you a bit more of your money's worth.

I have found that I can't play NWN for long periods. The gameplay style is too close to that of every other third-person CRPG that's been out in recent years. Being able to download a module is a good alternative because I can play it then put NWN back in its box until next time.
 

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