What is it about BioWare...

[chrisbeddoes]

I really hate the fact that BIO always tries to shift the attention from the SP game to the Editor. Look, we gave you some great tools. They are as much part of the game as the SP game. Maybe even more so because with it you can create unlimited modules and play for the rest of your life. The OC was just an example what can be accomplished with these tools.

WHY OH WHY did BIO not include an Editor/Module manual with the game if it were that big a part of it?

If they were really Serious and frank about this then they would allow people to make content and then sell it.

Yes you pay 60 $ to get the engine but from now on other people can use the engine free of charge to make more games and sell them to you .


Can you really excpect that Talented creative people will create serious content without ever being payed a dime ? Do you ?

If you really can create content with ANY tool then you can easily find a job that going to pay you $10K a month minimum or even $5 K minimum in poorer countries or even $2K-$500 /month minimum in third world countries. (like Greece)
Why , why in Chuck name do this work for free? Are you slave labor or something ?

Lets be frank . Bioware knew the truth that content made would be derivative and useless. I think that Bioware SUCKS.

It is as simple as that.

My 2 cents.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Ah, the joy of low expectations. I never really expected much out of NWN, put off buying it for a year, and am pretty happy with my investment now. I've started playing some mods that are nice time wasters, guess I haven't played enough that it starts to get samey. I think there are some nice mods out there; I just finished Bone Kenning, which was quite nice with lots of atmosphere. Looks like it's another dead wannabe series, though.

The thing is, I think the mod scene probably isn't something you want to spend a lot of time with. It seems like the people who made good mods tended to burn out and drop off the face of the planet. Once something like this starts being work instead of fun, most people will find other things to do. It probably would be better if there was some kind of compensation system to keep the good people interested, otherwise you're probably not going to see much other than the "first part of a series" mod that never gets past the first (or seldom second) part. I think every NWN mod I've seen so far fits that bill. That's just how volunteer gaming efforts usually work out.

So, yeah, I think NWN was mostly wishful thinking. Really I think many people out there probably knew better and bought it because they wanted to be disappointed. It's kind of like going to a Britney concert just so you can bitch about how horrible it was for the next few months. Naive idealism only goes so far. If you didn't like BG or BG2, thought nothing could ever possibly live up to the hype, and dearly loved your $60, then you probably shouldn't have bought the game in the first place.

 

[triCritical]

I've started playing some mods that are nice time wasters, guess I haven't played enough that it starts to get samey.

As for the time wasting. There are soooooo many good games that I have not played that its not worth wasting my time on something that is crappy. As for the monotonous encounters??? They start from the very second you get your cliche mission from Aribeth. There are four sectors of the city, talk about a really crappy implementation of Neverwinter. Each one is riddled with hordes of weak enemies, except the rich sector, but to get to the rich sector you need through the diseased sector to get there. The point is that is what the entire game is about, nothing but extraordinarly weak character. Whether it be the goblin caves, undead forest, prison break, or pirates its the same from the first hour the the sixtieth.

Here is my outline of NWN gameplay.

press a button and wait a half a minute to kill an enemy.
press another button to bash open a chest, which I kid you not, can take as long as two minutes. ( you wonder how they made it 60 hours )
press another button and rest for 10 seconds. This is necessary since you fight enemies that are of the same quantity of Diablo.

Well there is the revolution in CRPG's.

 

[Visionary]

I think you're right about the mod-makers getting burned out or maybe just bored of it all Snails. Being a D&D only (outside excessive mod efforts) game leaves only so much scope for creativity. Some of the better module makers have managed a whole series (Penultima has 5 parts), but most don't get past their first or second module.

I'm not actually a huge fan of NWN myself. As I said, I really only fire it up every now and then to do one module. Some of the same things that keep me away from using it more will also keep me away from games like Lionheart and Temple of Elemental Evil.

Chris you must have seen different hype to me (not exactly unlikely, because I don't pay much attention to it myself). Most of the adverts I saw gave as much attention to the module capabilities of the game as the single player campaign. Before buying the game my main worry was that the module in the box would have been thrown together as an afterthought and not worth playing. When it turned out to be the case, I gave up on it pretty quickly and moved on to playing modules.

Maybe your problems stem from over-anticipating the game. Perhaps you should have refrained from pursuing Bioware for information and getting involved with chats and forums and just had the occasional look at an advert like I did. I was not excessively pleased with NWN, but I wasn't excessively disappointed either. My expectations were lower, maybe more realistic.

I can see the same thing going to happen with some of the games people on sites like this are currently fixated on. Spending so much time talking about what a game MIGHT be, or COULD offer, or SHOULD become will make the game release and subsequent month of play an anticlimax.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

As for the time wasting. There are soooooo many good games that I have not played that its not worth wasting my time on something that is crappy.

I don't know, guess I'm not a gaming connoisseur. Hell, I used to play marathon sessions of Minesweeper.

As for the monotonous encounters??? They start from the very second you get your cliche mission from Aribeth. There are four sectors of the city, talk about a really crappy implementation of Neverwinter. Each one is riddled with hordes of weak enemies, except the rich sector, but to get to the rich sector you need through the diseased sector to get there. The point is that is what the entire game is about, nothing but extraordinarly weak character. Whether it be the goblin caves, undead forest, prison break, or pirates its the same from the first hour the the sixtieth.

Yeah, agreed. Neverwinter was very poorly laid out. I think they were going for some kind of non-linearity, but it just flopped. In practice, the first sector you took down was almost a challenge, then the rest were a piece of cake because of your level. Then the rest of the game was pretty much like that. Some of the encounters were tough, but the enemies were usually stupid. A dragon should be smart enough to have some kind of protection against harm or destruction. But you probably shouldn't be soloing against a dragon in the first place.

I don't quite understand the need for high kill counts. You're going to use the CR system, great. Part of that means that you want to design most encounters to be in the "challenging" area. The point isn't to kill thousands of weak bad guys on your way to the top, it's to have fewer but more meaningful fights.

press a button and wait a half a minute to kill an enemy.
press another button to bash open a chest, which I kid you not, can take as long as two minutes. ( you wonder how they made it 60 hours )
press another button and rest for 10 seconds. This is necessary since you fight enemies that are of the same quantity of Diablo.

Well there is the revolution in CRPG's.

Yeah, combat could be dull. I remember when fighting that ancient white dragon, I just put on that cold resistant necklace, a slash resistant belt, knockdown immune boots, and a regeneration ring, then put the game aside and went off to read, because I kept needing 20's to hit the thing. About 15 minutes later, the dragon still wasn't dead and my character was doing just fine, so I read some more. Another 5 or 10 minutes and he was dead. Not exactly the most heroic dragon-slaying battle of all time. After that I just used harm to save time. I thought they had to be joking or there was some secret I was missing when they sent two dragons at me at once at the end, but I just put them down in about 10 seconds with two destruction spells. Yay.

Really the chests weren't a problem though; they were probably too easy. A thief of course can handle them, a mage has plenty of options (knock, pixie familiar, fireball), clerics can get knock or else just use some other damaging spell, tanks can power attack, and for the rest there's always Tomi.

 

[Sabotai]

[...] and for the rest there's always Tomi.

Well, Tomi spent most of his time rubbing himself against unopened doors due to some serious AI problems, so my monk was left bashing the thing open with his bare hands. It sometimes took about 2 minutes per chest as triCritical already mentioned.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Well, Tomi spent most of his time rubbing himself against unopened doors due to some srious AI problems, so my monk was left bashing the thing open with his bare hands. It sometimes took about 2 minutes per chest as triCritical already mentioned.

Yeah, the AI was crappy. It would often take 2 or 3 tries before Tomi managed to get into position. For the monk, I probably would have just used a monk-allowed weapon with extra elemental damage. Chests were never resistant to that.

 

[Sabotai]

Yeah, the AI was crappy. It would often take 2 or 3 tries before Tomi managed to get into position. For the monk, I probably would have just used a monk-allowed weapon with extra elemental damage. Chests were never resistant to that.

I stopped playing NWN after I think it was patch (uhhh.. content update to use the correct BIO phrase) 1.17 ruined all my save games.

 

[Spazmo]

I spent half my NWN time screaming at Tomi to "open the fucking chest already! No, don't open that door! Watch out for the minotaur--ah, fuck."

 

[Monte Carlo]

W00t!

Bio does it again!!!

Apparently the plot of "Unrentide" (it sounds like a piss-based detergent) revolves around you retrieving four magical artifacts for your master!

WHO ON EARTH COULD HAVE CONCEIVED SUCH ORIGINALITY? HUH??!!

I can hardly wait to go to the gaming store and walk straight past this product, chuckling and looking forward to all the other things I could do with the money.

I also suppose that SoU downloads all sorts of shit onto your original install and makes it unworkable for subsequent XPs and stuff. Oh well, another reason not to bother with Hordes of the UnderMunch.

Cheers
MC

 

[Realbumpbert]

And to think that poor, ignorant me used to adore Bioware like the most insipid fanboy. I hate them all the more for having loved them.

And they've even made me lose respect for all the gaming magazines, since they gave NWN great reviews...won't be renewing my subscriptions. Damn industry. Stupid wannabe designers.

 

[Volourn]

That's what you get for 'adoring" a game company. Tsk, tsk.

 

[Realbumpbert]

Well, I thought BG2 was so good...so funny....it was my first RPG, after the mediocre Wizards and Warriors. To be more accurate, I guess I should say that I adored their games and expected much of their future projects. I remember the denial I was in when I realized NWN sucked. It was when I tried to replay the OC.

 

[Psilon]

I started with Daggerfall, myself. I enjoyed sections of BG1 once I understood how to play it efficiently, but I didn't get around to actually finishing it until three years later. BG2 wasn't too bad, but I vastly prefer Daggerfall, Morrowind, Arcanum, and Wizardry 8 when it comes to fantasy RPGs.

As for NWN, I got maybe ten hours of fun out of it, and most of that was with the toolset. The campaign put me to sleep halfway through the first chapter.

 

[Realbumpbert]

I *love* the Elder Scrolls. But they came after BG2, for me, although I like them a lot more now. I haven't played Aranum (I intend to once I get the Fallouts) but I never finished Wizardry 8. It was way too much Hack&Slash. You couldn't walk ten feet in the middle of town without running into fifteen androids out for your blood.

 

[Nomad]

Actually, IIRC, BioWare said that using the toolset, people would be able to quickly and easily create simple adventures. Unlike any other editor I've ever used (rpg, fps or rts), I was able to create a basic module and get it into the game in under 2 minutes. Now, before you ask, I didn't post it anywhere.

According to BioWare, more complex things such as cut-scenes and customizing object behaviour would require scripting. Considering that it's the first product from a new engine, I wouldn't expect anything else. I'm sure a sequel will feature significant improvements to the toolset in terms of automation.

As it is, if you take a look at the script wizard in the conversation editor, for example, you don't even have to manually write the basic scripts necessary to tell your story. Also, the plot wizard they added last fall makes creating adventures even easier.

It's exactly because the tools are so easy to use that there are thousands of other modules available for people to play. (Not being as much a fan of Dungeon Seige and Morrowwind, how many modules are available for those games?) To ignore those modules when considering NWN as a whole doesn't really make sense. The ability to play the modules that would be created by the community was one of the angles BioWare and Infogrames / Atari marketed.

Those tools allowed their community to develop. By keeping the modules free and continuing to provide customer support, that community is continuing to grow. The For Developers section on their community site is now enabling other people to write their own tools for NWN, too.

In my opinion, any flaws in the OC are more than compensated for by the commitment BioWare has shown to their community. I just don't see the same kind of effort coming from other developers.


N.

 

[Zetor]

I'll have to disagree with you, then. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least two developers who're [or were, in ST's case] MUCH more open, honest and supportive toward the community. I'm sure there are more 'good' devs, especially smaller ones; I almost included Troika, but I remember reading a post by Shellman saying "we won't release a balance fix, there are fan fixes for it already" and it gives me a NWNish vibe... :twisted:

- Irrational Games: Yeah yeah, I'm a fanboi, sue me. But. How often do devs release patches that *gasp* add functionality instead of fixing stuff that makes the game unplayable? Heck, how often do devs release games that aren't bugged to hell and back and need 4-5 patches to become remotely playable? That's what IGA did with System Shock 2 and FF; and it's not just superficial crap like adding a few new models [though they've done that as well] either. For SS2, they added cooperative multiplayer in a patch, while FF got a completely new gameplay option [Danger Room], along with them releasing various development tools [of course they had to write proper documentation, make them more user-friendly, etc]. Heck, Irrational is still working on Freedom Force modifications, additions and fixes, 'for fun'... they don't have the capacity to have people exclusively work on them like Bio, but their attitude is significantly better. (they're working on a free hosting service for FF mods / skins / meshes now, btw... they also started a new FF board after the official one died because Crave couldn't pay the server bills) Oh, and they're under no obligation to do this either; their original publisher went under and EA already sells the game as a 'bargain title'.
- Sirtech: Okay, so they spent 7 years working on Wiz8 using their own funding (ie, without a publisher; Sirtech was the last major dev house to pull this off), then they had to wait / plead / beg for 2 MORE years until they got the first (crappy) offer from EBGames, of all publishers. After they 'released it' (I used quotation marks because EBG didn't bother to hype the game at all and worse yet, it was an EB exclusive for a month), Sirtech was dissolved. However, they still decided to keep the website up, even having an official support forum [!], with the ex-team members developing 5 patches [!!] that weren't really needed in the first place, they were more like gameplay enhancements [!!!] and fixing bugged save games sent to them by email [!!!!]. Some ex-team members still hang around on various JA2 message boards, offering advice and insight into the game's workings to mod makers. (this for a game released in 1999, remember)

Now THIS is what I call 'dedication to the fans'. Bio has a long way to go. IMNSHHO.

About scripting / editing / whatever: I am of the opinion that releasing the tools used to create the game [obviously in a more polished state, with documentation etc] is the way to go, watered-down 'module mass producing utilities' do more harm than good to the modding scene. This does imply a certain modularity [which is missing from quite a few games with editors] in the game and making altering everything except for the basic engine and the interface possible. Take a look at the Natural Selection mod for Half-life... can you create something of similar technical magnitude for NWN?
Don't get me started on NWN's castrated 'scripting language' either...


-- Z.
"Thursday is Rant Day!"

 

[Elwro]

According to BioWare, more complex things such as cut-scenes and customizing object behaviour would require scripting. Considering that it's the first product from a new engine, I wouldn't expect anything else. I'm sure a sequel will feature significant improvements to the toolset in terms of automation.
[\quote]
OK, I'll remember it, and we'll see in 3 years or sth. I can bet my weekly piece of granny's cake it won't be done. And actually, I don't want it to be done. I think that making good modules should involve a lot of scripting - I'm for example almost sure that any FO modules that will appear will be very good. I don't want every second moron of this world to make modules. What if he lures me to his creation by an encouraging description and I lose 5 minutes finding that his mod is crap? I don't want to waste my 5 minutes' in such a way.

It's exactly because the tools are so easy to use that there are thousands of other modules available for people to play. (Not being as much a fan of Dungeon Seige and Morrowwind, how many modules are available for those games?)

For Morrowind: 1600+. Surprised? And those good ones actually add new elements to the world, so you can get a more and more detailed experience with a single character.

 

[Araanor]

- Paradox Entertainment: Europa Universalis II has continually received patching through the two years since it was released. Johan Andersson is the lead programmer and has gone far beyond the call of duty to improve the game all the while listening to the fans' suggestions, if you post a good idea it might just appear in the next patch. The game has had 7 patches all with balancing, enhancements, historical corrections, new features and bug fixes. It's a completely different game from how it was originally. (Patching is on ice at the moment, there's another game in the works.)

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

What Araanor said.

 

[Rosh]

I think it all boils down to what you were spoiled with.

I've played Wizardries and a whole load of others like Bard's Tale. Wasteland was a real treat. Dragon Wars was another nice one, Darklands, etc. Of course the Ultimas played a BIG part in what I like. Then came Fallout and was the spoiling factor. After that, I couldn't stand BioHype's lame half-ass crackhead clone attempts. I found myself tiring of lame Fed-Ex quests, even when playing some of Vogel's work, despite loving his style and construction. I also believe that while he doesn't like the setting, I might contribute a copy of Fallout 1 and 2 to go his direction to try sometime. It might give him some ideas on doing some "enigmatic" sort of "end critter" ideas for his work, even more than already present. Seeing something like The Master, undoubtedly one of the best constructed characters in an RPG, was a defining point in CRPGs.

Then when you are offered some lame pap after being spoiled, especially in the manner of "munchkins trying to pass off as good developers" that BioHype does, including the amount of sheer patting on the back they do to each other and themselves, then it becomes repugnant.

And yes, I could not get far in Wizards and Warriors. It was theoretically quite good, especially with the keywords and some of the skill systems, but it tended to drone on far more than any M&M game, and the shop/guil animation sequences were pure annoyance.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Honestly, i must either be very newbie-like, or completely alien...

I love RPGs. I try to play as much as i can. I started off with console, then some actual PnP D&D, then PC RPGs. I'm not a wise guy or genius when it comes to RPGs, though i think i have one or two traits in my bag that don't push me down towards the n00bishness of the genre.

Personally, i liked NWN (and no, your flames won't produce any effect ). I didn't overly liked its SP campaign. Specially not after playing games like Arcanum, Deus Ex, Fallout 1/2, or even BG2 (no, flames still won't work). Now, i know that NWN received a lot of hype. In all honestly, undeserved one. But considering Bioware managed to save the D&D license from the mudhole it was in, when it was still a young company, speaks volumes of their ability. I also know how some will say things like "the Infinity Engine sucked", "whatever thing i didn't liked sucked", etc. Personally, i won't criticize a company that harshly because i have no right to criticize a company if i'm not involved in the same medium they're in. This isn't to say i won't point out a companies' mistakes - but i won't go as far as bashing them because somehow my personal expectations were not met, i think i'm fairly above that.

When i look at BG and BG2, the reason i like them is simple - fun. It manages to convey some of the aspects of PnP fairly good, and the same with D&D-exclusive aspects. The game is, to me, fun. The fact is i think Bioware managed to convey a solid, believable gamewold in BG/2, coupled with those things that managed to make PnP good, like party adventuring. I hadn't played a believable D&D world since some of the old Gold Box oldies until i played BG1. I see people criticize the Infinity Engine on various levels when the only criticizable thing there i can see is the pathfinding, hands down.

But about NWN... What could've failed? I don't think it might've been the fact that they were working with 3D. AFAIR, their first game was "Shattered Steel", a Mech game, which i think was 3D... of course, 3D in '97 and 3D in 2002 is somewhat different. It was a mess, true - internal staff alocation, things done in a hurry... i think that NWN's quality could have been so much greater... i know graphics weren't good, yet, it did a better use of texture shading than Morrowind. It doesn't have a high polycount, true, but thats the reason why its fast, and much more dynamic than the overall slugish pace of Morrowind. For instance, many people bash the game but don't comment the fact they (Bioware) are farly new to the industry. They're no Interplay or Sir-Tech, hence why awards like Outstanding Achievement in Programming, wheter right or wrong, are understandable, given their "newness" to the industry. The major reason i see to criticize NWN's SP is not even the length, or the FedEx quests, but how it was made. Every game has FedEx quests, its how they're made that matters. Fallout 1 and 2's main quests are examples of this. I also dislike how the game isn't bigger, and i certainly feel dialogue trees, while not bad, certainly lack even BG2's scope. I remember how it was said a system similar to Fallout would be used... at least, while not exactly the same, i think it worked - Wisdom for a higher insight into the persons' reasons, Charisma for a higher persuading, etc. Its certainly much better than whatever Morrowind or BG2 presented.

I guess what i'm trying to understand is... from all reactions i've seen around Bioware, NWN and hype, i'd say the fans were the main reason for all the hype, along with game magazines and sites - i think the original fans of the game were following it somewhat discreetly, but game sites wouldn't let go of them, there were like weekly reports of the game if Bioware had added one texture or said "This is a new 3D polygonal side of the model!", or somesuch. I honestly also doubt that Bioware hounded magazine or site editors to show them petty advances, it was obviously not their fault on that - if you're producing a game, why should you not answer questions when you're asked?, in this case, interviews of gaming journalists.

Im not here defending Bioware of their obvious shortcomings on some matters. But all this hatred towards them seems... farfetched and derived solely from "they didn't do what i want, so they suck" type of arguments, not mentioning some ludricuous reasons out there...

Regardless, for me, it did in MP what it was supposed to, emulate that party concept of DnD PnP. Plus it has that great editor, and DM client. At least, while NWN may not have been the company's brightest gem, it was the gem that points to good things in the future, such as a more perfected 3D engine, and better handing of said 3D, its respective coding, and an improvement in overal quality. I look at NWN's engine and see a company that tried something (even if they seem to have not tried their hardest). Now after playing the game, and seeing NWN's engine working, i'll definetely look at KoTOR with other eyes, specially because i doubt Bioware hasn't learned with their mistakes.

Maybe its just me, but i think NWN doesn't represent the overall quality of Bioware, nor it epithomizes the end of said quality.


And now that this post will be largely ignored... </rant>

Peace!

 

[Elwro]

Personally, i won't criticize a company that harshly because i have no right to criticize a company if i'm not involved in the same medium they're in.

Nope. When I'm a customer I have the right to criticize a company, especially when it can be clearly seen that the product is different from what the company advertised. That's almost lying, actually.

But about NWN... What could've failed? I don't think it might've been the fact that they were working with 3D. AFAIR, their first game was "Shattered Steel", a Mech game, which i think was 3D... of course, 3D in '97 and 3D in 2002 is somewhat different.

Judging from NWN - not too much different. It's fake 3D when there's almost no Z-axis. Compare this to Morrowind in which you could climb mountains. 3D in NWN seems to serve only one purpose - the barrels containing l3wt may be conveniently placed anywhere without the risk of them being invisible because of some wall obstructing the vision.

It doesn't have a high polycount, true, but thats the reason why its fast, and much more dynamic than the overall slugish pace of Morrowind.

On my computer it's just false. The City Core in NWN runs very choppy and slowly, while I can run around Vivec (and the interior districts with many people inside) without any problems and with a good framerate; not too mention that MW gives me a LOT better graphics.

I remember how it was said a system similar to Fallout would be used... at least, while not exactly the same, i think it worked - Wisdom for a higher insight into the persons' reasons, Charisma for a higher persuading, etc. Its certainly much better than whatever Morrowind or BG2 presented.

I partially agree - it's way better than MW. Than again, both BG2 and NWN are simple game for children from kindergarden when compared to PS:T.

Im not here defending Bioware of their obvious shortcomings on some matters. But all this hatred towards them seems... farfetched and derived solely from "they didn't do what i want, so they suck" type of arguments, not mentioning some ludricuous reasons out there...

They didn't do what I want and they said they did; they still do. Somewhere up in this thread are funny quotes from press releases...

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Well i understand your points. I tried my best to avoid press releases and coverage of NWN when it was being made, so i could go into the game with no info about it save the basics (setting, developer, RPG). Thats prolly why i actually gave it a chance I won't deny that i was pretty irritated with a lack of a party, or the lack of epicness in it (both in size and scope), to name a few.

That main problem with NWN's 3D... again, its a design decision. Possibly bad, of course, but the fact its modular, and has a low polycount, at least clearly points to a better dynamism in Online Multiplayer (i somehow doubt Morrowind could run better than NWN online, with that higher polycount... though Morrowind looks better than NWN, of course). I know its entirely built from scratch, but then again so was Morrowind, that had a superior engine.

Than again, both BG2 and NWN are simple game for children from kindergarden when compared to PS:T.

Hmm, if i played PST and BG2 and enjoyed them both (though i preffered PST much more in terms of role-play), what would that make me, in terms of age? :shock:

But like i said, i understand some complaints (specially after reading some of those press releases shown here), however i'll keep giving them the benefit of the doubt (not forever, though), because i'm interested in upcoming games of theirs, and like i pointed out, its hard to believe they wouldn't try to improve their quality. If however i see they're becoming more geared towards quantity than quality (yes some might say they're already like, though i don't think so), then i'll stop paying attention to them.


Peace!

 

[Sabotai]

Hmm, if i played PST and BG2 and enjoyed them both (though i preffered PST much more in terms of role-play), what would that make me, in terms of age? :shock:

I'm wondering that myself. I'm 29 and quite liked BG2.