What is it about BioWare...

[Saint_Proverbius]

You find the decent moduless the same way you find anything else on the internet - by applying your intelligence. There are plenty of other ways of looking at modules other than the numeric rating system. There are other stats (number of downloads for example) and there are several forms of player feedback (comments on the download page, and various forums).

There are problems with that, especially looking at the number of downloads. That's almost like saying NWN sold millions of copies, it's the best game ever! when the truth of the matter is that the number of boxes in someone's home has nothing to do with the the quality of anything other than the hype. The same thing goes with how many people have a module on their harddrive.

I wouldn't recommend buying the game based upon the modules players might write, but for anyone who already has the game, I would recommend playing the better modules that have already been written. They are good fun and give you a bit more of your money's worth.

The problem with this is that you really shouldn't have to work to get your money's worth. You really should have to drudge through comments, forums, and so on just to find something which may or may not allow you to enjoy the product.

It's like buying a car, then finding it has no transmission. Then having someone suggest to you that if you go through enough auto-wreck yards, you can find a good transmission to make that car worthwhile.

You should be able to buy the game and enjoy it for what was provided.

I have found that I can't play NWN for long periods. The gameplay style is too close to that of every other third-person CRPG that's been out in recent years. Being able to download a module is a good alternative because I can play it then put NWN back in its box until next time.

Actually, I found it to be a lot worse than every other third person CRPG over the last few years. Of course, I don't like many first person CRPGs because most of them have rather nasty quirks just because of that point of view.

 

[Visionary]

There are problems with that, especially looking at the number of downloads. That's almost like saying NWN sold millions of copies, it's the best game ever! when the truth of the matter is that the number of boxes in someone's home has nothing to do with the the quality of anything other than the hype. The same thing goes with how many people have a module on their harddrive.

Looking at the number of downloads in isolation would be as unhelpful as looking at the rating in isolation. As I said, you need to search intelligently. I'm sure someone of your experience could manage it - you seem to have gotten past that nasty misleading sales figure okay.

The problem with this is that you really shouldn't have to work to get your money's worth. You really should have to drudge through comments, forums, and so on just to find something which may or may not allow you to enjoy the product.

In any system where more than a handful of modules are made this will be an issue. It's a bit unreasonable to expect the game to pick out the modules you'll like for you. Providing inaccessible module making tools isn't the answer. While you end up with less modules, there is still no guarantee of quality and no way of judging quality without playing or looking at commentary from someone who has played.

It's like buying a car, then finding it has no transmission. Then having someone suggest to you that if you go through enough auto-wreck yards, you can find a good transmission to make that car worthwhile.

It's not really like that at all. Playing downloaded modules was a major feature of NWN. It's not a broken piece of the package.

It's more like someone selling you a CD player/Radio and telling you that you can have a range of CDs with it. You find the radio is not very good quality and are left to make the best of the CDs. At that point you might want to search through his huge selection of CDs instead of throwing the player away. Of course, it's not exactly like that, but then that's the trouble with talking in analogies.

 

[Elwro]

It's almost like that; only the vendor has told you many times before that the radio would be functioning marvelously, and now he says "WTF? The radio was just a bonus. Look at all the CDs!"

 

[Spazmo]

And those CDs are very rarely made with the quality writing and design of a big company with money and a fair-sized team of developers.

 

[Rosh]

And the funney is this: The car still runs like shit with the worst pathfinding I've seen in a long time, as well as other basic AI paths. That's a problem that will be inherent to the game, has been inherent to every shitty BioWare release, and can't easily be changed unless the source is released. Therefore, in every mod, you have to deal with BioHype's insane programming incompetence.

So you might have all those CD, but you're going to be more distracted with crashing into every wall possible or trying to take H-1 when driving from New York to Florida.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Looking at the number of downloads in isolation would be as unhelpful as looking at the rating in isolation. As I said, you need to search intelligently. I'm sure someone of your experience could manage it - you seem to have gotten past that nasty misleading sales figure okay.

A number is just a number. Just like the sales of NWN is just a number. There's no indication with that number how many people with like interests did or didn't like it. That's my point, it's a meaningless statistic.

In any system where more than a handful of modules are made this will be an issue. It's a bit unreasonable to expect the game to pick out the modules you'll like for you. Providing inaccessible module making tools isn't the answer. While you end up with less modules, there is still no guarantee of quality and no way of judging quality without playing or looking at commentary from someone who has played.

Most people aren't interested in modules in the first place. There's millions of copies of NWN out there, and you're not going to find a module on any site that's been downloaded even remotely close to that amount.

It's not about having the game pick modules for me, it's about the game not sucking without them. It's about the game sucking without them so much that I'm expected to not only give my $60 for the title, I'm expected to be dilligent and work for my entertainment value. That's bollocks, man. Absolute bollocks.

It's not really like that at all. Playing downloaded modules was a major feature of NWN. It's not a broken piece of the package.

Actually, it was a secondary feature. It's just the primary features were so pitifully done, that the secondary features look that much better.

There's a reason you don't see Morrowind fans saying things like, "At least there's an editor!" or "That's why there's modules for the game!" in great numbers. NWN fans do this because the campaign is just plain disgraceful.

It's more like someone selling you a CD player/Radio and telling you that you can have a range of CDs with it. You find the radio is not very good quality and are left to make the best of the CDs. At that point you might want to search through his huge selection of CDs instead of throwing the player away. Of course, it's not exactly like that, but then that's the trouble with talking in analogies.

It's like that, only to the point where the radio only picks up the 24 hour fart sound channel, and you can't hear anything from a CD until you've picked it up and played it. The end result is that you have to drudge through the 24 hour fart sound channel forum to find some recommendations for what are good CDs.

 

[Visionary]

It's almost like that; only the vendor has told you many times before that the radio would be functioning marvelously, and now he says "WTF? The radio was just a bonus. Look at all the CDs!"

No - he says "The radio works fine - it's you who is not listening properly." Bioware have never admitted the lameness of the module they packaged with the game, which just goes to show there are a lot of people in the world willing to ignore the realities of a situation in favour of strengthening their own argument.

 

[Visionary]

And those CDs are very rarely made with the quality writing and design of a big company with money and a fair-sized team of developers.

Are you equating big companies with quality?

 

[Visionary]

That's my point, it's a meaningless statistic.

It is not meaningless. It simply means the module has been downloaded the number of times from the given site. Any inferences drawn from that or not are down to the user.

Most people aren't interested in modules in the first place. There's millions of copies of NWN out there, and you're not going to find a module on any site that's been downloaded even remotely close to that amount.

The are several major download sites and together there have been hundreds of thousands of modules downloaded. No, not everyone with a copy of the game is interested in modules or maybe even if they are they just don't like the game enough to play them, but hundreds of thousands of downloads is a significant amount of interest from the users.

It's about the game sucking without them so much that I'm expected to not only give my $60 for the title, I'm expected to be dilligent and work for my entertainment value. That's bollocks, man. Absolute bollocks.

What's bollocks is the premise that there could be a game system offering thousands of modules where you didn't have to do some kind of searching to find ones you might want to play. That's like saying an RPG system sucks because you have to a campaign to play before you can play it.

Actually, it was a secondary feature. It's just the primary features were so pitifully done, that the secondary features look that much better.

Whatever. This kind of chatter is nonsense and besides the point. It's advertised as part of the game, so obviously it's inclusion as advertised is not akin to a broken piece of a car. How many cars have you seen advertised as "Now comes with the option of buying your own new transmission?"

There's a reason you don't see Morrowind fans saying things like, "At least there's an editor!" or "That's why there's modules for the game!" in great numbers.

The Morrowind toolset is not as ususable as the NWN one as evidenced by the vast difference in the number of modules out there. The toolset for Morrowind was thrown in as an afterthought. It was developed to be used by developers and had a small amount of ad hoc reworking done to it. The NWN tools were developed to be used by the buyers of the game. There is a huge difference in the nature of the development project for the two toolsets, and also in the resultant applications.

It's like that, only to the point where the radio only picks up the 24 hour fart sound channel, and you can't hear anything from a CD until you've picked it up and played it. The end result is that you have to drudge through the 24 hour fart sound channel forum to find some recommendations for what are good CDs.

Yes, that's a better analogy.

 

[Elwro]

It's almost like that; only the vendor has told you many times before that the radio would be functioning marvelously, and now he says "WTF? The radio was just a bonus. Look at all the CDs!"

No - he says "The radio works fine - it's you who is not listening properly." Bioware have never admitted the lameness of the module they packaged with the game, which just goes to show there are a lot of people in the world willing to ignore the realities of a situation in favour of strengthening their own argument.

Your argument misses the point, I'm afraid. My post doesn't imply that in my opinion Bioware ever "admitted the lameness of the module they packaged with the game". Did they correct any SP flaws with any patch? I think not, they only seem to be interested in MP and helping modders, which actually - if done properly - would be a good thing. It's just acting as if SP never existed, and advertising SP (before any other components) in order to sell more copies. That's quite similar to behaviour of the abovementioned vendor.

Anyway, read this thread:
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=696
and see if my example doesn't actually paint quite a proper picture of Bioware's treatment of NWN. First they gave us an enormous amount of hype ("engaging and
exciting single player campaign", "The game contains an amazing 60-100 hour single player campaign", "a group of exceptionally creative, smart people -
has done an amazing job: Neverwinter Nightsh as an incredibly engaging 60-
100 hour official campaign" - all from the press release) and then they ignore SP completely and work (badly) on the MP & modding components only.

Here's a funny quote you might've missed, it's from another press release at http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/pre ... /1mmusers/ :

"With nearly 2,500 community created Neverwinter modules now available for free download, our fans seem to have adopted our user creation toolset to develop creative and highly immersive adventures for the entire community," said Dr. Greg Zeschuk, Joint CEO of BioWare Corp. "Fans should expect more of this type of support behind future BioWare products as it not only extends the value of shipped titles but is an invaluable resource for future game development"

Heh... don't have the ideas, or, for worse, the skills needed? Wait for fanboys to do it for you and then make cash from it!

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Damn, was just looking for some recommendations.

Just what are the good mods?

The OC is pretty silly. Just slayed my 3rd dragon, and I'm just a 15th level solo cleric. Harm r0x0rz.

 

[Visionary]

I quite liked the Sunless Citadel. Also, Trouble in Tragidor was getting some good responses from reliable players when I was still playing a while back. If you want a laugh, go for the Penultima series, especially if you're a Pratchett fan or just like to laugh at fantasy cliches. If you do play Penultima, be sure to take your time and enjoy the experience. There are a lot of nice little details.

And leave those dragons alone. What have they ever done to you?

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I quite liked the Sunless Citadel. Also, Trouble in Tragidor was getting some good responses from reliable players when I was still playing a while back. If you want a laugh, go for the Penultima series, especially if you're a Pratchett fan or just like to laugh at fantasy cliches. If you do play Penultima, be sure to take your time and enjoy the experience. There are a lot of nice little details.

Thanks. Will check them out.

And leave those dragons alone. What have they ever done to you?

I don't know, they were just sitting there being all evil and such and I couldn't resist. I don't know, might off the goldie for the whopping 400 XP before I'm done, too.

Okay, I was just hoping when Aribeth finds out I killed lots of dragons she'll be impressed and show me her b00biez.

 

[DrattedTin]

Morrowind's editor is hard to use?

Well, I guess if you find making Starcraft maps a challenge to your intellect...

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Whatever. This kind of chatter is nonsense and besides the point. It's advertised as part of the game, so obviously it's inclusion as advertised is not akin to a broken piece of a car. How many cars have you seen advertised as "Now comes with the option of buying your own new transmission?"

That's the point. You assume the transmission works, just like you assume the OC isn't a progressive series of find the four loots, fight the boss, move to next chapter deals.

The Morrowind toolset is not as ususable as the NWN one as evidenced by the vast difference in the number of modules out there. The toolset for Morrowind was thrown in as an afterthought. It was developed to be used by developers and had a small amount of ad hoc reworking done to it. The NWN tools were developed to be used by the buyers of the game. There is a huge difference in the nature of the development project for the two toolsets, and also in the resultant applications.

That's a load of crap. Sure, you have the wizards and things with the NWN toolset, but if you want to make anything decent with the module, you're going to have to get in to the complex part of the toolset, including the C-like scripting. The NWN toolset is only "easy to use" if you just want to make a simple dungeon and put in lots and lots of monsters.

If you want to do somethign decent, it's just as hard as any other editor out there.

 

[Deathy]

The NWN toolset is only "easy to use" if you just want to make a simple dungeon and put in lots and lots of monsters.

I was playing around with the NWN toolset for a few hours once. I created a pitiful dungeon hack that BioWare would be proud of.
I wonder if that's the reason there are so many awful mods out there.

 

[Volourn]

There are some good mods; and some bad ones. People her emay not like it; but I have played NWN more than any other crpg I've played. Heck, I find a handful of mods superior than most published games including such illuminaries like NWN, IWD series, ES series, and DD. And, that's just to start.

The NWN OC was okay. Fun; but in the end, nothing special. I just think a lot of the people seem to go to the extreme with insukting it as they hate BIO with a passion.

'Tis is life.

While they rant; I will continue to enjoy the game in my own special brainwashed way.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Come on, Volourn. By any objective standard, the NWN OC was fucking dreadful.

I've had fun with NWN. I don't actually hate it. But Saint Proverbius is correct when he points out that the game should have been a polished product out of the box without any third-party support. It wasn't.

With some old gaming buddies online, NWN was a good laugh. For a few hours here and there with some of the better fan-created mods it was a good laugh. Out of the box? FUCKING dreadful. A disgrace. And for the price, there really was no excuse.

Bioware could, of course, obviated themselves from the wrath of all sorts of gamers by marketing the game as a MP/Editing package. Did they? Hell no. They had to hype it to drag in BG fans to boost sales. And that, ultimately, is the price Bio paid with the gaming community. I'm sure Greg and Ray, as they peruse the financial pages in their gold-plated jacuzzi, think it was a price worth paying, and the best of luck to them.

Just don't expect the likes of me to give them any kudos for it.

Cheers
MC

 

[Volourn]

I've read SP's review, and commented on it. I even stated it was a good, fair, and honest review. I don't neccessary agree with every part of it; but I definitely have no problem with it.

Just like even though I like NWN OC; I don't think it's perfect. In fact, I have never stated that yet many people seem to think I do. Oh well.

 

[Visionary]

Saint Proverbius has an inconsistent opinion, possibly born from a strong desire to criticise NWN. On the one hand you're claiming to be a victim of the hype and to feel let down that the game was not all that it was claimed to be, but on the other hand you're ignoring the fact that a large amount of the hype was along the lines of "endless adventures" centring on the game's module making features.

The game was not put forward as just another single player RPG and it's dishonest to pretend that the only thing in the box by which the game should be judged is the module it came with.

Bioware claimed the game would let players create mods for themselves and for their friends. It does that. The number of modules out there being created and played indicates that it has done it well. The bell curve of quality for those mods is just a fact of life and the same as any other bell curve. Bioware aren't responsible for the lack of talent evidenced by the majority of module makers. Their tools do not constrain players to making bad modules, as shown by the existence of the high quality ones.

 

[Vault Dweller]

*sighs. Why do some people feel the need to prove that they are right although the concepts like right and wrong are abstract and extremely subjective? You tried once, it did not take, and it never will, so why bother?

Anyway, you said that

The game was not put forward as just another single player RPG and it's dishonest to pretend that the only thing in the box by which the game should be judged is the module it came with.

And yet it's being judged by the module it came with, and not by Saint alone, but by by all the foks who gave it a truckload of RPG of the Year awards and even Outstanding Achievment in Writing (Honorable Mention) thingy :shock: . Full list is here http://nwn.bioware.com/about/awards.html

Subsequently, I don't recall Bioware folks ever saying "hey, guys, whatcha smoking? This module is a RPG of the Year? Com-fucking-on! It's a mistake!" They accepted full "responsibility" for the award, mentioned how great they are at doing the RPG thang, but every time somebody asks how come it sucks so much, the answer is "Well, you know, It's not really a RPG, in fact it's just an engine with a toolset".

It's bullshit if you ask me. NWN is not the first game that came with an editor, but it's the first game that was hyped by media as the biggest event since Christ's resurrection. Outstanding Achievment in Writing, what a joke!

 

[Volourn]

I've said this before; I'll say it again. Whether you like NWN, or not; the OC was very much a part of the advertising campaign. To say otherwise is to spread falsehoods. However, modding and multi-player also played a huge part of the advertising too. To say otherwise is to spread falsehoods as well.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Saint Proverbius has an inconsistent opinion, possibly born from a strong desire to criticise NWN.

S_P can defend himself on this, but his opinion was farfrom inconsistent.

On the one hand you're claiming to be a victim of the hype and to feel let down that the game was not all that it was claimed to be, but on the other hand you're ignoring the fact that a large amount of the hype was along the lines of "endless adventures" centring on the game's module making features.

Bioware realised that the expectations for NWN "out of the box" were huge. A great deal of time and effort was spent by them to get the community onside as far as the SP was concerned. I remember discussing this with Dave Daider on the old forums; I think he was brought in relatively late to try and beef up SP when Bio realised that there was gonna be a problem.

The game was not put forward as just another single player RPG and it's dishonest to pretend that the only thing in the box by which the game should be judged is the module it came with.

This is simply untrue. NWN was seriously pimped as all things to all men.

Bioware claimed the game would let players create mods for themselves and for their friends. It does that. The number of modules out there being created and played indicates that it has done it well. The bell curve of quality for those mods is just a fact of life and the same as any other bell curve. Bioware aren't responsible for the lack of talent evidenced by the majority of module makers. Their tools do not constrain players to making bad modules, as shown by the existence of the high quality ones.

The tools are superlative. MP is fine. None of this changes, one iota, the fact that Bioware unambiguously touted NWN as the D&D3 SP and MP CRPG.

The OC was a core part of the game. And it was crap. Bio clearly stated that you would get your money's worth if you played it SP outta-the-box. No way.

Cheers
MC

 

[chrisbeddoes]

Saint Proverbius has an inconsistent opinion, possibly born from a strong desire to criticise NWN.

Many people that wasted 60 $ for this crap have a strong desire to do so .
After all with 60 $ you can do a lot of things and have fun.

On the one hand you're claiming to be a victim of the hype and to feel let down that the game was not all that it was claimed to be, but on the other hand you're ignoring the fact that a large amount of the hype was along the lines of "endless adventures" centring on the game's module making features.

The hype said
a) NWN one of the best RPG ever.
b) NWN an alternative to persistant MMORPG without paying $$ every month.

The awfull truth ?
NWN is one of the worst RPG ever.
Not an alternative to a persistant MMORPG, ten time worse than Diablo 2 in that respect.

The game was not put forward as just another single player RPG and it's dishonest to pretend that the only thing in the box by which the game should be judged is the module it came with.

That is not what the HYPE machine said Sir . Look above.

Bioware claimed the game would let players create mods for themselves and for their friends. It does that. The number of modules out there being created and played indicates that it has done it well. .

No sir it does NOT does that . It lets you create a simple dungeon hack but nothing more . Try to persuade me that the average Joe can use the C like scripting to create complex module with a real story and real quests .

Can he ? Hell no.

The bell curve of quality for those mods is just a fact of life and the same as any other bell curve. Bioware aren't responsible for the lack of talent evidenced by the majority of module makers.

Bullshit Sir. Bioware Hype machine did not say that you have to know C to create a decent story . It said that anybody can create a decent story . That is a lie Sir.

Their tools do not constrain players to making bad modules, as shown by the existence of the high quality ones

Oh yea ? What is the meaning of your sentence sir ?
Why is that sentence relevant at all ?
If you gave those tools to say Tim Cain yes he could create a decent RPG out of it .

But the point is very simple .

Bioware Hype machine said that " Anybody that is a GM can make a decent story with those tools "

That Sir is a big big lie.

In fact Sir Bioware cheated me out of my 60 $ ( 60 EURO) and Sir I want my money back .
And because i could not return this totally crappy product at the store I will regard any bioware title from now on as suspect and the Bioware name on the box as the seal of crapiness along with such "household esteem names" as Chuck Cuevas


My 2 euro cents.

 

[Sabotai]

I really hate the fact that BIO always tries to shift the attention from the SP game to the Editor. Look, we gave you some great tools. They are as much part of the game as the SP game. Maybe even more so because with it you can create unlimited modules and play for the rest of your life. The OC was just an example what can be accomplished with these tools.

WHY OH WHY did BIO not include an Editor/Module manual with the game if it were that big a part of it?