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What is the point of low lethality?

Generic-Giant-Spider

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So cut the crap about lack of tension and missing dangers of high lethality. There is none, if you're not playing in iron-man mode.

You can still enjoy high lethality, getting smacked down will encourage you to try different strategies and find the most effective way to proceed so you don't get smashed.

And be real, if you're running iron man then you have very likely already beaten the game roughly ten times to where you know how to deal with any sneaky shit.
 

lukaszek

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star traders show that you can have high lethality, play permadeath on highest diff, have random events that can easilly screw you over many times, play glass cannon small ship and still have fun as it provides you means to manage danger
 

Cryomancer

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Illithid and variants are hard enemies because of this.

Yep. Turning an enemy into a ally is far more nasty than just OHKilling the enemy.

One possible problem with high lethality is that you have to design for tactical engagements, ie to be able to surprise or be surprised, or to use the environment to your advantage.

It is not a problem. It is a good thing of high lethality.

Also, low lethality in a medieval settings involving armored fighters does make sense

Well, high quality armor was ultra expensive in that time and no soldier can survive a ballista shot in the chest. Also, the medieval period is a huge historical period with hundreds of different cultures and tech being developed.

Consider that a lot of real life actually IS low lethality: How many people actually die in a real battle? Weapons we make today are, on paper, deadlier than ever, capable of spewing thousands of bullets per minute. The result is that the actual lethality of battles is decreasing rather than increasing.

Because people are becoming better at NOT being hit. Camouflage, better tactics and training and so on. Not because being hit by a .308 round is not lethal.

And be real, if you're running iron man then you have very likely already beaten the game roughly ten times to where you know how to deal with any sneaky shit.

Also, this games are often not made with permadeath in mind. On P&P, a good DM would give hints that the enemy has this abilities by using NPC's or the environment and players generally investigate their enemies before engaging. On BG2:SoA, you can fight a lich in the freaking basement or a random Inn. Talking about MMOs, on Dark Sun Online : Crimson Sands, the lv cap was 15 and each death reduces your level by one. The game has disintegrate and finger of death and you can't save scum. I would play it if it was available.
 

JarlFrank

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There's a real argument to be made that realistic melee combat, especially if you're dealing with shieldwalls and shit, does actually have really low lethality with the vast % of casualties only being inflicted during a rout.

But of course, the easier and more accurate answer is that devs want to reach the casual audience.

Yeah but shield walls don't work as hitpoint soakers, but as "for most of the combat nobody does any damage to anyone, they just tire each other out and try to sap morale and the side that breaks first gets fucked".

I like how Battle Brothers represents combat. Lethality is fairly high, but armor serves as a second hitpoint pool to soak up damage. You gotta crack the armor before you can hurt your enemy. Shields can also be broken. And damage to health can also cause a wound that gives a malus. And stamina is also important to keep track of.

Adding stuff like stamina and morale to a combat system means that there are other ways to win the fight than just whittling down HP, and whittling down HP in fact becomes less important than breaking morale or sapping stamina. Like how in the Total War games you don't win fights by killing every enemy soldier, but by breaking their morale and making them rout.

My perfect RPG lethality level would be pretty high, with wounds and damage to armor and clothing, but also ways to keep yourself alive in dire situations, such as using bandages to stop bleeding and using healing magic to seal wounds, but still suffering from morale shock and stamina loss.
 

Tacgnol

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Like how in the Total War games you don't win fights by killing every enemy soldier, but by breaking their morale and making them rout.

I like the contrast in Total War games. Elite troops tend to fight almost to the death and take very heavy causalities before breaking, but the lower tier troops tend to break long before that point and often manage to escape the fight with fewer deaths than the elite troops.

Puts me in mind of what combat probably would have been like with lots of poorly disciplined levy troops who didn't really want to be there.
 

JarlFrank

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Low lethality is good in number-crunching games with inflated stats because it allows devs to make players feel good about levelling-up.

High lethality system example: you deal 10 damage, enemy has 15 health, you kill him in 2 hits. You deal 12 damage after level-up, same enemy has 15 health and dies in two hits -> your level-up ended up not mattering at all.
Low lethality system: you deal 10 damage, enemy has 150 health, you kill him in 15 hits. After levelling you now deal 12 damage and kill the same enemy in 13 hits. 13 is clearly lower than 15, player feels progress.

If I have to hit an enemy more than 10 times to kill him, and the same applies to an enemy having to hit me more than 10 times, the system is probably shit and combat will feel like a grind not even halfway into the game.
 

Tyranicon

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Like how in the Total War games you don't win fights by killing every enemy soldier, but by breaking their morale and making them rout.

I like the contrast in Total War games. Elite troops tend to fight almost to the death and take very heavy causalities before breaking, but the lower tier troops tend to break long before that point and often manage to escape the fight with fewer deaths than the elite troops.

Puts me in mind of what combat probably would have been like with lots of poorly disciplined levy troops who didn't really want to be there.

RPGs could use more morale systems. But they're notoriously hard to program right, at least beyond the :if HP<30% then flee" command.
 

JarlFrank

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See, I'm not a proponent of "one hit kills you" systems. I dislike level 1-2 D&D because of how random it is: one crit kills you, and you can one-hit-crit enemies too. One lucky roll decides the outcome of the fight, not your tactics.

But there is a middle ground between "everyone dies in one, two, or three hits" and "every fight takes three dozen turns because everyone has hundreds of HP", and that middle ground is where FUN lies.

Every action on the battlefield should matter. If everyone can soak up huge amounts of damage without consequence, your turn by turn actions don't really matter that much. It turns into a battle of attrition where the one who can out-heal the other wins: if the enemy does 10 damage on average every turn but your cleric can heal 12 HP per turn, you will win, it's only a matter of time. Getting hit doesn't matter because other than reducing your HP (which can be recovered), it doesn't actually do anything. In a bloated system of attrition like that, fights that go on for a long time feel tedious and boring because you keep making the same moves but they don't have much of an impact.

For combat to feel engaging, your actions need to have impact. D&D is usally liked (especially the older editions) because most of the things you can do have impact. Baldur's Gate 2 gives your fighters some really OP weapons to pick from so even your weapon choice makes a huge impact: do you use Carsomyr, or the Flail of Ages, or Lilarcor, etc. Spells usually have major noticeable effects. Even some of the lower-tier spells like grease stay relevant throughout the game because their effect has a great impact on the battlefield: enemies walking over a greased area have a high chance of falling down. That's cool. Jagged Alliance 2 is another game that is often praised for its combat, and it also has high impact decisions. Getting hit usually does a lot of damage, there is locational damage (head, chest, legs), distance and lighting determine how easy it is to hit and get hit, so crouching in a shadow is better than standing in a light, etc. You will often try to maneuver your characters into a superior position with better cover and a better angle on the enemy. Explosives can punch holes into walls, removing cover for enemies hiding behind them, or creating new access points to rooms. Silent Storm, a game greatly inspired by JA2, takes this even further with its full 3D engine and everything-is-destructible physics. Enemy standing on a watchtower? If you have a rocket launcher you can blow up the foundation of that tower and make the dude fall down. Heard an enemy on the other side of a wall? You can shoot through the wall with a high caliber weapon. The game offers a lot of options, and most of these options are high impact due to the destructible environments and relatively high lethality.

The player needs to have options, and so does the enemy. And those options need to matter. A spell that knocks enemies out for X turns, making them unable to act for that time, is more impactful than a spell that merely slows them down. A rifle shot that can cause a wound is more impactful than a rifle shot that merely reduces HP, so wound systems are a great way of adding impact to combat moves.

The more options a system offers, the better. Flanking gives you an attack bonus! High ground gives you a damage bonus! Standing in formation makes it easier to block with your shield! Crouching behind an object provides cover!
If your combat system is simplistic and doesn't offer any of this, then extremely high lethality just means "whoever rolls the dice better wins", while extremely low lethality just means "you're gonna watch these two dudes stand there and whack each other for 30 minutes".
 

Cryomancer

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I dislike level 1-2 D&D because of how random it is: one crit kills you, and you can one-hit-crit enemies too. One lucky roll decides the outcome of the fight, not your tactics.

Ultra low level D&D greatest problem is that you have nothing interesting to do. IMO D&D starts to become interesting at lv 7 and really becomes good at lv 9, where your caster can cast spells like cloudkill.

RPGs could use more morale systems. But they're notoriously hard to program right, at least beyond the :if HP<30% then flee" command.

And better AI. On NWN1, some undead casters casts heal on themselves and it damages then...
 
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Beyond hand holding the player, I think designers like low-lethality because it gives the player more time to do more while also stretching content. If the player can wipe a pack of goblins with a single burning hands spell, there isn't much climax. Longer encounters require the player to do more, even if that's just selecting a basic attack. Low-lethality is also a band-aid for poor AI, which astonishingly appears worse now than it was 20 years ago. All of this has been mentioned by others in the thread. In general, it's all decline, but we know that. Let's hope Owlcat can keep the flame lit for us pitiful grognards.
 

Cryomancer

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a single burning hands spell, there isn't much climax.

Just have more goblins or a hobgoblin in the encounter, so the spell would only insta take out weaklings. This would be much better than 1h and 13 min to kill a bunch of goblins on BG3... BTW, my first RPG was Might & Magic VII : For Blood and Honor. There was enemies capable of insta disintegrating you in that game... And reviving someone eradicated was not trivial in that game;

When I see a lv 14 half giant gladiator with 24 STR buffed by haste + other spells killing a drake in a round in dark sun : wake of the ravager, I don't think "this is anticlimatic", I think "cool, I an glad that he is in my team". This is much more interesting than hour long encounters with low level mobs. I still remember when during the Tyr's Ziggurat, a defiler dominated my half giant gladiator and the rest of the party started to try to flee. Din't worked and I had to reload.
 
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Another problem, often referred to as "ego stroke" also is a problem for lethality in RPGs. I think in the 1990s, games were still exactly that. They immersion quality was far lower and narratives much less developed. People treated games like a game, rather than a vicarious self expression. Death and reloading weren't really seen as problems because of this. Reload, try again. The fun was in the doing. With ego and self-insertion being the norm now, there is an expectation for encounters to be "plausible" not just on the critical path, but off the beaten one as well. BG2 gets a lot of criticism for this with the lich in the hidden tomb under the inn within the gate district. In an earlier age there was an expectation that jumping headlong down a secret door would entail danger and precaution. Now players merely expect to be able to win anything they come across no matter their development or diligence.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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RPGs could use more morale systems. But they're notoriously hard to program right, at least beyond the :if HP<30% then flee" command.
If only there were an existing table-top RPG with a morale system that could be adapted for the purposes of CRPGs. :M


p0027b.jpg
 

Roguey

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If only there were an existing table-top RPG with a morale system that could be adapted for the purposes of CRPGs.

Unfortunately programmers have to deal with questions like "What happens to the enemies after their morale fails?" which has answers that are more complicated than "you fight everyone until they're dead" unless you're making a game where the battle-space is separate from the exploration-space, in which case, it's pretty easy (but few wrpgs are made like that now).
 

Neki

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High lethality requires not only a more tactical approach it requires a more grounded or realistic setting, of you only really being able to fight 2 people per party member, you get ganged up, you die.

Low lethality appeals more to the fantasy go through a horde of orcs and defeat big dragon mentality.

They're both have their pros and cons, imagine if you could tank shots on JA2 or if you immediately got incinerated when you meet a wizard.

I prefer medium lethality, not otks but also no hp bloat, early BG1 comes to mind.

Neo Scavenger did high lethality pretty good iirc.

Also yea niggas gonna cry if their Mc that they spent 2 yours on character creation can't take shove from a goblin.
 

Grampy_Bone

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Oblivion level scaling was tarded, news at 11.

If only there were an existing table-top RPG with a morale system that could be adapted for the purposes of CRPGs.

Unfortunately programmers have to deal with questions like "What happens to the enemies after their morale fails?" which has answers that are more complicated than "you fight everyone until they're dead" unless you're making a game where the battle-space is separate from the exploration-space, in which case, it's pretty easy (but few wrpgs are made like that now).

KCD did this well, I liked how bandits would bail if you killed a couple.
 

Cryomancer

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Mc that they spent 2 yours on character creation can't take shove from a goblin.

That is not a problem. Now, goblins soaking multiple crossbow shots is a big problem.

Oblivion level scaling was tarded, news at 11.

Retarded is euphemism. Was the WORST level scaling ever created. The worst case of high hp gain and little damage gaining ever. And this not mentioning hobo bandits with daedric gear.

Unfortunately programmers have to deal with questions like "What happens to the enemies after their morale fails?" which has answers that are more complicated than "you fight everyone until they're dead" unless you're making a game where the battle-space is separate from the exploration-space, in which case, it's pretty easy (but few wrpgs are made like that now).

It can work on sandbox games. Enemies when losing by a lot try to flee, except when they can't flee IE - defending a city while enemies are attacking. M&B has no magic, but phantasy calradia implements it and as a necromancer, you can lose control over your own undeads mainly at low level with poor skill level. The unique unity who never retreats and always obey you are constructs and only Ridas magocracy can craft golems at a very slow rate and they are pretty expensive. But pretty good. I have a iron golem who alone survived a entire volley from Dwarves arquebusiers.

And BTW, M&B is a very lethal game. Siege crossbow can 1~2 hit kill you on "normal difficulty" even if you have a good armor. A mounted knight hit you at full speed with a lance? You are down. Doesn't matter how much tanky your char is.
 

Roguey

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It can work on sandbox games. Enemies when losing by a lot try to flee, except when they can't flee

How long do they flee and to where? Do you get experience as if you killed them in a game with xp-per-kill? And what about loot? If you have to kill enemies for xp/items, enemies that run away become an aggravation.
 

Butter

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And BTW, M&B is a very lethal game. Siege crossbow can 1~2 hit kill you on "normal difficulty" even if you have a good armor. A mounted knight hit you at full speed with a lance? You are down. Doesn't matter how much tanky your char is.
The reason Mount & Blade gets away with such high lethality is that 1) the player character can't actually die, and so there's always a way to continue the campain; 2) you have a ton of units and can always recruit more, so losing some isn't a major setback. Basically the game is designed so that you won't savescum for optimal results, and it works really well. But a more traditional RPG with smaller parties of less disposable fighters and mortal PCs can't necessarily copy this formula.
 

Cryomancer

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It can work on sandbox games. Enemies when losing by a lot try to flee, except when they can't flee

How long do they flee and to where? Do you get experience as if you killed them in a game with xp-per-kill? And what about loot? If you have to kill enemies for xp/items, enemies that run away become an aggravation.

They flee from the battlefield. Sure, soldiers fleeing give no xp however, resources are important on M&B. If enemies are fleeing, you probably can defend a city with less resources, losing less soldiers, also the likehood to capturing enemy nobles increases which means -1 enemy commander and the enemy will offer money for his release(which I refuse most of the time). It also increases your troops morale which is a important factor.

It works fine in M&B but would't work on Diablo for eg.

you have a ton of units and can always recruit more, so losing some isn't a major setback.

It is when the unity is expensive. How much costs a Rhodok Sharpshooter? How much time takes to train a recruit into a Rhodok Sharpshooter? Even with 10 Training at high level, it probably would take a couple of days. In fantasy calradia, a mod which makes the game into a high fantasy setting, the cheapest golem costs 1k gold and you can only get one golem per day. And there are unities like Balrogs which can only be captured via hunting demons but are crazy powerful and takes a high amount of wages. And that is why necromancy is so good in phantasy calradia. Undead doesn't need food, and while a blood conflict weaken a living army, a blood conflict makes the undead army stronger since you can reanimate the dead to serve you. The greatest problem of undead is that clerics can nuke then out of existence.
 

Neki

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That is not a problem. Now, goblins soaking multiple crossbow shots is a big problem.

In that case you can just have your party of 8 all packing with crossbows and kill all the goblins trying to zerg rush you. Or they could tank a shot or two, maybe have some mechanics to it, agile characters may dodge the bolt or characters with shields might block it, otherwise you can just steam roll everything lowlevel with a full party.

High lethality only really works in sim/tactical turn based or action rpgs imo.
 

Pocgels

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High lethality + Deterministic = fine
Low lethality/ Large party sizes or armies + High RNG = fine
Low lethality + Deterministic = kind of a slog, usually
High lethality + High RNG = Casino game

Mount and Blade has a few "insta-kill" situations like getting hit in the head by a javelin or lanced, but you can block, the AI is pretty exploitable (you can dodge projectiles by running a certain way) and you aren't in much danger unless you get swarmed.
There are some shoot-em-ups that give you 1-3 hits before you die and almost cover the screen in projectiles, and it becomes a game about the skill of the player. Which isn't really comparable to a turn-based game where the tests of your skill are limited to whether or not you can click on the correct spell in the menu.
 

Raghar

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And be real, if you're running iron man then you have very likely already beaten the game roughly ten times to where you know how to deal with any sneaky shit.
I typically don't. It's most interesting the first time. When you don't know how different game rules are working.
 
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The problem with disintegrate and other save or die magic is that everyone worth casting this spell upon is guaranteed to be immune against it. Egads, why would you want to prance into the final battle and end the superboss with a single silly spell? Noo, boss battles should last for hours with the mandatory "this is not even my final form" trope, anything else would be anticlimacteric or whatever. And against mooks, that's a waste of slots better spent on something more reliable and AOE (AKA fireball).

Why blame people for reloading when this is the only way to make these spells remotely useful? Designers should stop being such pussies mortified at the thought that crafty players would pwn the pride of their monster fleet too easily.
Reminds me of how in final fantasy 6 the devs added those protections to enemies worth casting the death spell on, but forgot to make them immune to the invisibility spell that makes one extra vulnerable to magic.

That's a nice optional superboss you have there...would be a shame if the battle ended in under a minute...



(as a final indignity, he misses the party with a summon meteor spell and probably died of cringe)

They patched it in subsequent versions, of course.

:littlemissfun:
 

Norfleet

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Beyond hand holding the player, I think designers like low-lethality because it gives the player more time to do more while also stretching content. If the player can wipe a pack of goblins with a single burning hands spell, there isn't much climax
If that happens often, apparently your goblins are being led by Zapp Brannigan: "On my command, all ships will line up and file directly into the alien death cannons, clogging them with wreckage!". Cone/Arc AOEs are one of the hardest to aim well and get maximum targets on. The only time enemies are going to all get caught in one is if all of them are basically performing a disorganized rush directly at the shooter without sufficient movement rate to close the gap before the shooter can take the shot.
 

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